#1292 - Lex Fridman

May 7, 2019

Lex Fridman is a research scientist at MIT working on human-centered artificial intelligence and autonomous vehicles.

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movies and talking about fights so if you're not into that skip it like a half hour in he's also a martial artist he's a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu really really cool guy and a brilliant man and I really enjoyed talking to him and I hope to do that more often so please give it up for my friend mr. Lex Friedman

The Joe Rogan Experience trained by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day boom and we're live hello Lex hey what's going on the sequel part 2 you have a very similar if not the exact same suit on this is all I wear you look very professional yeah very Reservoir Dogs Reservoir Dogs well let's go to the best sequel of all time Godfather Part Two is that the best thing of all time I think John Wick might be having how dare you sir Godfather Part 2 I mean that's that has to be the best sequel okay then and if this is Godfather Part 2 it's definitely not do part 3 yeah part 3 was terrible right well let's let's not offend anyone but it was locked out tap water yeah I don't remember it it was the older Pacino that people voice that was like way later right those 90s oh okay so it's like Point Break

the remix yes right look at when they try to redo things like way way way later they almost never accept the alien franchise they've done a pretty fucking good job with the alien friend they had a couple of Duds yeah and there but for the most part I've actually never seen the alien franchise what who are you well you don't you are you in a science intelligent man can disagree but you know in the science I don't know I'd prefer prefer Al Pacino I would say that the older sent a woman Al Pacino you know that really yeah what as for the greatest come on the yeah you got the Oscar for that one what about the one we played the devil and the devil likes to rent okay there's there's two this Duds for everybody knows that one Devil's Advocate uh-huh there you go that was with Keanu Reeves Keanu Reeves from John Wick I heard John we par threes for the Matrix the better movie did not true did you see this

and this High School in North Bergen New Jersey put on the alien play a couple weeks ago and Sigourney Weaver showed up right when she showed up like a cut just the other day to like say thanks or whatever talented awesome though it looked a lot like crazy and I was just wondering if they did this when you're in high school do you think you might have joined drama like if they did the alien play know I would have loved it well the watched it I'm not getting the drama those people cry too much it's too much work it's cool suit though yeah they're okay let's talk about this is two kinds of movies there's fun movies and there's movies that are like transformational for society gets sent to a woman what okay let's see you going to say Scent of a Woman is transformational for Success one of the greatest scenes between a man and a woman on film the Tango scene well you're not married no I'm not married yeah well let's it's like someone talking about French who can't speak French I see yeah it's nonsense that movie sucked I read above French in the book talking about France without ever being to Paris

and Scent of a Woman your favorite movie now it's not my favorite I don't really think that movie sucked either by the way if you get mad right now I'm barely remember it but it is it is up there I'm sure it's good movie as one of the greatest performances by Shaney a cure every its course you'll grow up to a good start yeah I bet you there's thousands of people agree with me right now yeah there's millions of don't and they're called haters oh everyone who disagrees is I always hate her okay so what's your favorite love scene in a movie not like like between Adam and get married Bro okay you're into loving this shit no I'm not find yourself a gal their little down we're not talking about romantic comedies and I'm standing there here rom-coms we're talking about serious like dramatic moments right okay so Godfather good angry yeah great move right move is it have to have two guys like shooting each other or not like okay so if you're seen Scent of a Woman yeah I'm sure I saw it yeah well I barely remember it all right

there's the watch it today to be like a new movie to me okay there's this broken man spoiler alert considering suicide right it's deep so he is tortured by you know by his involvement in the war by being responsible they all this kind of stuff he is now mentoring a younger version of himself who has more character more integrity and throughout all of this he meets this beautiful young woman he's blind after for the dance and there's this beautiful moment where they connect I mean okay listen Phil what's the purpose of film right entertainment

for make us think I mean make us think Hmm you know you're going to think if you want to think nothing makes you think of film can engage you you can you can it can resonate with you or not I have a movie that I throw by people whenever I want to find out whether or not I want to listen to anything they have to say about movies ex machina The Big Lebowski yeah yeah that's one of the greatest moves a lot that could be look at you okay that could be like that could be like slightly better than sent a woman oh boy that also is one of the greatest scenes between a man and a woman when he is when the fine young ladies painting her toenails right and she's offered him sex for money yeah that would that's it's a beautiful moment to these beautiful yeah the comedian that girl that used to be a hot mess what's her name Tara Reid yeah she still hot Master she get her shit together she's been like shark the Sharknado series is what she's been shot

yeah

so I passed the Big Lebowski test and you failed the Scent of a Woman test why don't remember it I gotta wrap this conversation really don't remember it okay I mean I'm sure it's great I'm sure it's great if you you're a wise man if you like it I'm sure it's good and you also recognize the Godfather 3 is kind of sucks yeah yeah but I like the old Pacino reminisce listen Godfather is about your people the Italian people have dominated the the mob the brilliant mob movies right I mean Godfather's about family right there's something deeply like genuine about that that like in our modern society really crave for so it's like bigger than the individual bigger than the rules of society government the man it's family above all right that's like a I don't know that's Timeless it's that I believe that the the moment with the young Pacino when he talks to what is brother Fredo hmm says don't ever take

as against the family again ever yeah that's one of the greatest moments that's a great moment all right all right all right I'm romanticizing movies here but you just like John Wick though huh never seen it whoa never seen it it's good excuse me it's good movie to watch on the treadmill

is that a is he playing a Russian mobster in that no kills a bunch of them though and he speaks Russian he works for the Russians kills people for the Russians again arrays is one of the greatest human beings ever there so yeah he's like the nicest guy I heard he's a really nice guy but he plays a bad ass gangster I would like it to be a little bit more fit we're got a little bit more and see without a shirt on like not quite buying it but that's okay average man yeah but the average mass of the fucking best assassin of all time with all this martial arts skill equator yeah but faders big fade or might have like a gut but he's a thick motherfucker

okay whatever wrong fade or ever see young fade are when he was in his prime like back when he fought like Vegeta like back when this is there's a picture of fate or standing around with a bunch of kettlebells ever see that picture nope sounds fade on is lifting days I suspect and this is coming that's that's one when fader was fairly young up there but that's a that's not the one I'm talking about you know they're one with the kettlebells is that picture up see if you find that picture never a six-pack in sight no no six pack but I suspect that fade or might have been on some performance-enhancing substances during his prime you mean like hard training lots of drilling technique so the strategy Star Rod are you sir dude using Pride everybody was on steroids man

yeah that's him look at him that's him in his prime that's a big motherfucker now I do not know if he was on anything but everybody else was I mean literally everybody they had it in their contract that you we will not test for steroids you know Ensign in you a told me that they like essentially encouraged people to take steroids yeah the pride days that's right but it's not like Russians don't have a long history of using performance-enhancing substances you I'm sure you saw that movie Icarus you see it yep fascinating right it's it's fascinating and yet I don't steroids often feel to me like a bit of a Witch Hunt often times you'll assume people are on steroids I'm a bit of maybe I'm naive or an optimist but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise but Icarus obviously proves yeah and everyone throws a monkey wrench of those gears but you know with with Vader I

the technique on that the technique the execution the timing the Brilliance of amendment no doubt heart here's how I don't know yeah I just want to if not the greatest heavyweight of all time he certainly one of them and I don't think steroids would help that yes they do they help okay yeah they held that guy particular yeah they helped everything they help you training they help you build it you ability to recover the help your explosive power they help your speed they help everything the but they also it's not just steroids like a lot of them on EPO EPO radically enhance has her endurance and they're starting to catch people need they just stripped TJ Dillashaw UFC bantamweight champion for stereo for EPO rather it's tragic yes it is tragic especially TJ you mean he's a just phenomenal fighter if not mean certainly top ten pound for pound and then this is one of those things that comes up and you go oh man so Legacy killer and this world we have to kind of reconsider

what kind of what should be allowed or not yeah I agree with that that there is an idea what you should make steroids legal right or not legal sorry a lot or some kind of supplementation like where's the line when you start to talk about the future of martial arts the future sport if you can control the levels so that they're healthy I mean isn't that the reason that they're not allowed is because if abused they become unhealthy they damage long-term well-being of the person there's look if that was the case we wouldn't allow fighting because fighting is more damaging steroids for sure for sure getting punched and kicked and fucking need in the face and elbowed into unconsciousness that is way worse for you than steroids the route the concern is not for the athlete the concerns for the opponent the idea is that you will be able to inflict punishment that you would not ordinarily be able to inflict you will have more endurance you will have more power

you will hurt someone potentially even look there's going to be a time where someone dies in a mixed martial arts event and if that's someone who was the Victor who did not die was on steroids it is going to be a huge National tragedy and a massive disaster for the sport for everything if that ever does happen we can only hope it Deb it never does but for sure you know it's a very very dangerous game you're playing and when you are martial arts very dangerous game and when you are enhancing your body with chemicals that are illegal while you're doing that game the real question is though here's my take on it

this is it's one of the most human subjects and that being mean meaning that it's messy humans are messy like there's good and there's bad you know look like abortion is a messy subject it's messy you know whether you have the whether you agree with someone's right to have it or not it is what you're doing is especially as the fetus gets older it's messing you know when it's a complicated discussion it's not a clear it's not like you should drink water you know what I mean it's like it's a very complicated discussion steroids are a very complicated discussion you're not allowed to do them but they exist for a reason the reason why they exist is they're really effective they're really effective in enhancing your body but how much of that will we allow we allow creatine we allow supplements in terms of you know there's there's certain things that can slightly elevate your testosterone slightly elevate your growth hormone we allow sawn on Ice baths

these things that have shown to enhance recovery but that's that's too much it's too good there too effective but it's weird it's weird that this thing that we found that makes you better you can't use yeah and so I have to go back a little bit and disagree with you on something so in terms of fighting being dangerous and that's if we wanted to forbid things that are dangerous for you would forbid fighting I think the main thing you're doing can be dangerous the main thing that we're talking about the sport the the combat event that can be dangerous because that is what we watch two people at the height of their skill ability heart passion putting their life at risk that can be dangerous but the supplementation around it the way to make it to make their training better more effective that can't be dangerous and I thought that can't be dangerous can't be dangerous so I thought steroids were considered what sort of band

because abuses lead to long-term damage to health now we see steroids is cheating hmm But it was band initially because it has detrimental effects y'all think that's true it's not know because there's no real evidence that it's detrimental it's not as detrimental as alcohol when you allow people to drink but even a bit even when abused where the bodies like there's there's not a lot of like there's a great documentary on it called bigger stronger faster and it's about my friend Chris Bell and when you watch that documentary and you realize like oh well the real negative consequences of taking steroids or that it shuts down your endocrine system so it stops your body's natural production of testosterone and growth hormone and hormones that's the real problem and for young people that can be very devastating and it can lead to depression and suicidal thoughts and all sorts of really bad things when you testosterone shuts down but as far as like death

boy I mean there's people are prescribed pain pills every day the week and Fighters that are on injuries that have been you know that have gotten surgery they're prescribed pain pills every day the week and those pain pills kill people left and right that's just a fact people die of those things all the time much more so than died of steroids so on I'm not advocating for the use of steroids right I'm just I'm being pretty objective and neutral about this but I'm just looking at it like it is a it's a very messy subject yeah it's very eloquently put but so so your problem in terms of damaging the opponent is if one side take steroids yeah that doesn't exactly what happens if both the problem is you would require someone do that that maybe someones a holistic person they don't want to introduce any unnatural exogenous steroids into their body and hormones in their body they want they want everything to be produced by the human body they want to they want to eat healthy food tray

hard sleep well compete naturally yeah it's CT Fletcher here yesterday yes is natural bodybuilding yes or not bodybuilder powerlifter ha yeah but that's not required right this is your not requiring people you're giving them the choice so you know it's an interesting possibility where in moderation you will be able to allow steroids and teacher of Athletics because with an argument that if in done in moderation you can actually create healthier athletes yeah that's I mean that's a real argument for the Tour de France the Tour de France they say that you actually are better off and healthier taking steroids yeah and EPO then you are doing it without it because it's so unbelievable drooling on the body yeah I mean those athletes basically some of the best people in the world at suffering yeah long-term suffering it's incredible an ultra marathon runners all these guys let's grab the different sort of thing you know and you know the thing about ultra marathon runners is don't even

ask them is it like good luck look how cute those people have iron Wills I don't know if like Kourtney do Walters woman who you know she is yeah she's been in here she's candy it's drinks beer eats candy and peanuts of makes sense yeah I mean she just got a fucking Iron Will her will is indomitable and you could take all the steroids you want when you're running for three days that chick is gonna beat you it does not acquit yeah just has no quit in did you see the podcast with her wherever she talked about how she fell she couldn't see she was in experiencing I think it was in Iraq Euler hemorrhaging so her her eyeballs were bleeding internally something like that where it was impeding her vision she couldn't see I would stop I would stop running no she fell because she couldn't see busted her head open bleeding all down her face keeps running barely barely can see her feet as she's running keeps running I'm glad those people out there there you go

like that like I don't know how to quit really yeah I'm like I do a lot of stuff like that like stupid like Iran yesterday I couldn't sleep I ran here yesterday 13 miles I'm not a runner just just this weird Obsession you don't run no I run but I'm not a runner like look at my buddy I'm not have a similar body like yours we're not exactly do you like better build for a short sprinting and then maybe killing somebody with our hands versus long distance well you're a black belt in Jujitsu right yeah yeah what are you trying to Now train at Broadway Jiu-Jitsu in Boston nice and that's and before I was in in Philly balance to the other film agrees and so on right but kalbach niak actually trains and Broadway really it's love that car yeah he died last time was on actually want to talk about this a beat fight because I'm Russian so I love the Russian way yeah but I also love the I mean Kyle to me represents

events like the American he's like the rocky if you remember that fight with the against the beat the third round he was winning I mean that's nothing yeah the best of what martial arts is MMA is to me is like you have two technicians that just throw everything away like screw this yeah I'm just gonna throw down Wells it beat had broken his hand broke his hand somewhere I think in the second round so he was pretty compromised going into the third round couldn't really fire back and Kyle's just as zero Quinton them as an animal yeah I mean that's the most beautiful you talked about like technical fights in the ground or technical striking like when like two technicians throw everything away this I'm sorry but that's what is the goal of the most about any kind of fighting any kind of sport I enjoyed in the moment I discourage it heavily I don't think it's a smart way to fight yeah well then I get it that's probably your job but font is my job it's like I had what I like like I get

I get the impulse

but I don't want people to give in to them pulse I think fighting is something that you should do correctly you should do you should do there's there's principles that you should follow to fight correctly it doesn't mean that you shouldn't take chances but there's moments like

Ricardo Lamas when he fought Max Holloway and they just stood in the center of the ring for the last few seconds of the fight and Max Holloway pointed down at the ground is like come on right here right here and they just started sewing in Haymakers it was amazing well it happened but if I was in Max's corner but like I don't know don't do that man this Macho shit is going to give you fucking brain damage you're going to get hit with shots you wouldn't get hit with that's a difficulty like you said human nature is messy I would say that is the greatest that is their greatest moment of their lives what that war no listen Betty or there's a greatest moment of Max hallways Max always the greatest Center wait a minute discussion no but Max Holloway is the greatest featherweight of all time is a guy who destroyed Jose Aldo twice he's a guy that he's beaten everybody in front of him at featherweight the idea that

this one moment where they decided to throw out all his skill and technique and just swing for the bleachers in the middle of the Octagon it was a fun moment it was great to watch but the idea that that was the greatest moment of life is for that you're a crazy person yeah there's moments is support there just magic Olympics bring that when like the thing that you don't think should happen or can't possibly happen or is not wise which people just throw everything away yeah you like that yeah you're the passion person yeah fashion person yeah for sure that's an interesting thing for someone who studies artificial intelligence mean if anybody lives in this podcast but what the fuck does this guy do there's a dress so many Reservoir Dogs they talk about movies so many people angry right now and I will talk about autonomous vehicle we we are we have plenty of time sir we have plenty of time but that's the beautiful thing about this podcast we're just talking so tell me what you got here with your notes man you are fucking prepared I mean you have a lot of shit here yeah many many pages for sure I don't want to miss I don't

stuff I mean there's a there's been a lot of exciting stuff on the autonomous vehicle space since you came on I got a Tesla and I've experienced what that thing is like when I put it on autopilot and it's stunning crazy mean this is traditional performances of each amazing well in terms of its ability to change lanes and its ability to drive without you doing anything I just put my hand on the wheel and hold it there and it does all the work so because like one or two people listen to this podcast I want to take this opportunity and tell people if you drive a Tesla whether you listen to this now or a year from now two years from now Tesla or any other car keep your damn eyes on the road so whatever you think the system is able to do you will have to still monitor the road and you still have to take over when it fails

if when really so

we're throwing with this is like the moment we're throwing down right now I think it's almost as your level of expertise obviously thrown down with you know I think it's really important to in this transitionary phase whatever the car company whatever the system that we don't over trust the system we don't become complacent we don't think it could do more than it can the currently 40,000 people died in the United States from from fatal crashes the number one reason for that is distraction so texting smartphone how much is it gone up since smartphones people don't exactly they're trying to understand that there's a lot of studies showing that it's significant increases but it's hard to say it's because of smartphones but it's almost obvious it's pretty obvious the the flip side is even though everybody's Now using a smart phone texting so on they become better at using the smartphone so they're better at texting and driving the better

seeing that now this is a horrible thing to do so if you're listening to this podcast you should listen to in your car and keep your eyes on the road and not text I think Wurst was Pokemon when Pokemon was in its prime I was watching a guy on the highway playing Pokemon as he was driving a no more than one person two people guy and I saw a girl do it wants to holding the phone on the steering wheel playing Pokemon yeah that's incredible what are you doing Jimmy

it's Grandpa's oh shit I'm confused what is this it's Grandpa and Japan he drives around on a bike oh my God Pokemon all the things look at this this guy's 15 phones it's ridiculous this guy needs to find hookers people that do this also in their car with maybe 4 or 5 does exactly what you're saying this man needs a better hobby this is preposterous look at look at his file he can't see what the fuck's going on in front of him he spends about three hundred dollars a month to buy virtual currencies in the game wow that guy's board or in an Innovative genius depending on the perspective one now I people misuse their Innovative County Innovative he's just playing a stupid game while he's driving around his bike like an asshole well he's doing in fact is set of a woman thing it's passion its most amazing moment of his life that's right cheering Pokémon I'm sure most people are my

Scent of a Woman you're crazy you think most people are in your side they think sound of a woman's greatest movie of all set to a woman but I was defending Godfather Scent of a Woman you are defending Godfather against me I'm gonna throw you out of the van okay I'm gonna manipulate this conversation Jamie can you edit this in post did you see the video that just came out yesterday of Tesla on autopilot avoiding a crash all right so yeah I have and there's a lot of exams quite a few of those yeah of course it's like hard to prove exactly what happened where the autopilots involved just like on the flip side it's hard to prove that autopilot was involved in the dangerous stuff but I think by any measure the media is really negative in terms of their reporting on Tesla there I think as usual I think you've talked to this about before in general and negativity gets more clicks right and I think Tesla negative stuff on Tesla gets a lot of clicks so and well not Tesla

you speak more broadly about autonomous vehicles if there's any Fatality and you crash it's over-represented it's over murdered on yeah so I need to me people who are interested in AI helping save lives in these systems like autopilot I feel you carry the responsibility of being at least as good of a driver you are when it's under manual control so don't text and drive keep your eyes on the road yes I say anything over and over in this podcast is that drunk driving of course is the other one and so don't drink and drive but the number one thing is distracted driving yeah put your phone down I agree

listen to some music some classic rock classic rock Joy the into yeah yeah click Credence put into the not like they know what they're like it like you change the channel now you're going to put me in this sent a woman like or it son comes on and I get excited there you go I take I take my shirt off let's start drinking no that's Upland Lynyrd Skynyrd course Hendrix chord on drugs and I have to admit something I thought about messaging you a couple times I wanted to play guitar do you yeah good

you can't are you good at Jujitsu yeah I'm good okay I'm a black belt I'm pretty good your black belt to I'm sure you good yeah I'm not world class and I'm a good fuck me up I'm a three-strike purple belt guitar that's a good way of putting it yeah yeah I see that would about hunting I'm like a blue belt hunting yeah yeah yeah I've been doing it like I got the purple belt by doing it a long time mmm as opposed to being amazing but you take lessons now I learned everything myself I have a couple of videos online me playing Comfortably Numb did you learn from watching videos or did you learn from books like How did you let me see this give me this look at you well this is gonna get us booted off of YouTube yeah that's gonna be playing that the biggest worry it's probably won't pick it up and if it takes it up it'll be to my channel and I'll be shot yeah it's me playing wouldn't you believe better be nice so good it sounds like people from humming song for ya nobody so this

German this isn't no I did not but this think it blocked if you were humming a song yeah and then someone made a claim on that song it would block our YouTube like literally we could get demonetized and put we could we lose our streaming ability to think what happened lots of things that's fucked up man like we've gotten flagged for watching something on the screen picture in picture no sound commenting on it and we get flagged and they want all the advertising revenue from a three-hour show for 510 seconds of a video it's a slightly broken system well which broken but there's a lot of scam artists to so I played another song Black Betty oh yeah and I got I don't know yeah I played the damn song but they they said it was it wasn't they did exactly that they said it was the Ram Jam or whatever it said it was there and I may have borrowed the beat behind it from them I'm not sure I just took it be like yeah well

I was thinking about that song like it sound like there was other shit going on besides just your guitar

oh no that's all me really it's all made bed the bed we have that again that's really good man you sound good that's a great fucking song to Comfortably Numb know the scariest thing for me what to play guitar on this podcast so it's like going back and forth don't really do it said do not do it actually play play play the only it was only a few people that have ever played play every last been and Suzanne from honey honey Gary Clark didn't write he just came out and talked he brought his guitar I wanted to play Hendrix here really live what you got it right with you right now in the car yeah well no I meant I was okay sure in the in the future now I'm not promising scared you were Hendrix wig with a bandana is that racially insensitive though you're allowed to Joe I will not take as much as you don't like this you're allowed okay the hair is like just you know it's just hair is this how you can't wear dreadlocks though

yeah so those rules but I think

um yeah there's rules I just wanted to say above all rules though right it's well he's the goat you know of guitar players that's the goat don't have them you know the reason why this call this show is called variance yeah it's I stole it from Jimi Hendrix yeah what's the matter I don't remember if we brought this up last time but I just remembered seeing this video where you're playing guitar while you were driving yep well you shouldn't do that dude it was a reason why I was doing it why are you doing this on a test track oh what kind of car is that looks at Lincoln Lincoln MKC yes well they do that the Lincoln's do not we converted it and we that's our code control in the car wow and I'm that is crazy so you converted this car to drive autonomously honestly wow and what what exactly do you have to do to a car to change like because that car does not have the capacity the capacity to do anything like that

so the right my correct no no no absolutely not but you are absolutely correct the there's the first part is being able to control the car with a computer which is converting it to be drive by wire so you can control the steering in the braking acceleration to basically be able to control with the joystick and then you have to put laser sensors all around the cars that we can kind of sensor and software so what's the best kind of sensor that Optical laser a lot of debate on this and this is the big this is the Throwdown between Elon Musk and everybody else oh yeah musk says the best sensors camera everybody else well everybody else says that at this time lidar which are these lasers yes the best sensor so I'm more on the side in this case on camera on Elon Musk so here's the difference lasers are more precise they work better and in poor lighting conditions they're more reliable you can actually build Safe Systems today that use lidar

the problem is that they don't have very much information so we use our eyes to drive and cameras the same thing and they have just a lot more information so if you're going to build artificial intelligence systems so machine learning systems that learn from huge amounts of data camera is the way to go because you can learn so much more you can see so much more so the Richer deeper sensor is camera but it's much harder you have to collect a huge amount of data it's a little bit more futuristic so it's longer-term solution so today to build a safe vehicle you have to go lidar tomorrow however you define tomorrow we all must as it's in a year others say it's 5 10 20 years camera is the way to go that's that's the hard debate and there's a lot of other debates but that's one of the core ones it's basically for camera you if you go camera like you're doing the Tesla there's seven cameras in your Tesla mm3 looking forward there's all

and so on one looking inside know you have the model S yeah yeah so that one doesn't have a camera that's looking inside so it's all cameras plus radar and ultrasonic sensors that approach requires collecting huge amounts of data and they're doing that they drove now about 1.3 billion miles under autopilot Jesus yeah it's it's it's a very large amount of data so you're talking about over 500,000 vehicles have autopilot 450 I think thousand have the new version of autopilot autopilot to which is the one you're driving and all of that is data so all of those all the edge cases what they call them all the difficult situations that occur is feeding the machine Learning System to become better and better and better and the open question is how much better does need to get to get to the human level performance like one of the big thing

one of the big assumptions are Seema beings is that we think that driving is actually pretty easy and we think that humans suck at driving those two assumptions we think like driving it you know you stay in the lane you stop at a stop sign it's pretty easy to automate and then the other one is you think like humans are terrible drivers and so it'll be easy to build a machine that outperforms humans are driving now there's that's I think there's a lot of flaws behind that intuition we take for granted how hard it is to look at the scene like everything you just did picked up moved around some objects it's really difficult to build an artificial intelligence system that does that to be able to perceive and understand the seen enough to understand the physics of the scene like all these objects that it like how to pick them up the texture of those objects the wait to understand glasses folded and unfolded open water bottle all those things is common sense knowledge

that we take for granted we think it's trivial but there is no artificial system in the world today nor will there be for perhaps quite a while that can reason do that kind of Common Sense reasoning about the physical world add to that pedestrians so add some crazy people in this room right now to the whole scene right and being able to notice like this guy's an asshole look at them was he doing what is he doing get off the skateboard ah Jesus is in traffic it and the considering not that he's an asshole he's a respectable skateboarder it that in order to make him behave a certain way you yourself have to behave a certain way so it's not just you have to perceive the world you have to act in a way they get to assert your presence in this world you have to take risks so in order to make the skateboard or not cross the street you have to perhaps accelerate if you have the right away and these are the there's a game theoretic Run game of chicken to get

I mean what do we even know how to approach that as a artificial intelligence sort of research community and also Society do we want an autonomous vehicle that speeds up in order to make a pedestrian not cross the street which is what we do all the time we have to assert our presence if there's a if there's a person who doesn't have the right away you could begins Crossing we're going to either maintain speed or speed up potentially if we want them to not cross so that that game there to get that right let's as dangerous game for a robot it's for robot and for us to be rationally if that God forbid least a fatality for us as a society to rationally reason about that think about that I mean a fatality like that could basically bankrupt the company there's a lawsuit going on right now about a an accident in Northern California with Tesla yeah

and are you aware about yeah that one yeah that's what was the circumstances about that one so that was I believe in Mountain View a fatality in the Tesla wear it this is a common problem for all all linked keeping systems like like that's a lot of pilot is there's a divider in the highway and basically the car was driving you know long lane and then the car in front move to an adjacent Lane and this divider appeared right so you have to now steer to the right and the car didn't and went straight into the divider oh wow it's you know the basically what that boils down to is the car drifted out of Lane right or didn't adjust properly to the Lane and those kinds of things happen in this is because the person was allowing the autopilot to do everything nope that you can't so we have to be extremely careful here I don't know that the really deep details of the case I'm not sure exactly how many

Purdue so there's a judgment on what the people that person was doing and then there's analysis with the system did write the system did it drifted out of Lane the question is did the person was the person paying attention and was there enough time given for the person to take over and if they were paying attention to catch the vehicle steer back onto the road as far as I believe the only information I have is Hands-On steering wheel and they were saying that like half the half the minute leading up to the crash the hands weren't on the steering wheel or something like that basically trying to infer where the person paying attention or not but we don't have the information exactly what where were their eyes right you can only make guesses as far as I know again so the question is this is the eyes on the road thing because I think I've heard you on a podcast saying you're tempted to sort of look off the road with your new Tesla or at least become a little bit complacent that's the

were you worried the worries that you can just rely on the thing that you would relax too much but what would that relaxation lead to the problem is if something happened if you weren't you know when you're driving I mean we've discussed this many times on the podcast to the reason why people have road rage one of the reasons is because you're in a heightened State because cars are flying around you in your brain is prepared to make split-second decisions and moves and the worry is that you would relax that because you're so comfortable with that thing driving everybody that I know that it's tried that they say you get really used to it doing that get really used to it just driving around for you so the question is what be what happens when you get used to it yeah you start looking off-road do you start texting more do you start watching a movie etcetera right that's a that's really an open question and the like for example we just did the study published a study from MIT on

what people in our data set we have look like this data set of three hundred thousand miles in Tesla's instruments all these Tesla's and watch what people are actually doing and are they paying attention when they disengage the system so there's a really important moment here we have 18,000 of those when the person catches the car you know the disengage autopilot and that's a really Tesla uses this moment as well it's a really important window into difficult cases so some percentage of those some small percentages about 10% is we call them tricky situations is situations where you have to immediately respond like drifting out a lane if there's a stopped car in front so on the question is are people paying attention during those moments so in our data set they were paying attention there were still remaining Vigilant now in our data set the autopilot was quote unquote encountering tricky situations every 9.2 miles so you

say it was failing every 9.2 miles hmm that is one of the reasons we believe that people are still paying a remaining Vigilant that it's regularly and unpredictably sort of drifting out a lane or misbehaving so you don't over trust it you don't become too complacent the open question is when it becomes better and better and better and better will you start becoming complacent when it drives on the highway for an hour an hour and a half and is opposed to 9.2 miles make that 50 miles 60 miles do you start to over trust it and that's a really open question do you think or do you anticipate a time and anywhere in the near future where you won't have to correct you will allow the car to do it because the car will be perfect

the car first of all will never be perfect no car will ever be perfect autonomous vehicles will always you think we require at least some sort of manual override yeah really that's interesting that you're saying that because you work in a I like what makes you think that that's impossible to achieve well let's let's talk because you're using the word Perfection I think perfect okay that's a bad word yeah so you're I guess you're the client let me see will it achieve because people are obviously not perfect will it achieve a state of competence that exceeds the human being

and let's put it in a dark way competence measured by fatal crashes yes yes absolutely believe so and perhaps in the near term near-term five years yep for me five ten years is near term for you on in Elon Musk time that's converted to one year if you met him yes interviewed him recently fascinating cat right yep got a lot of weird shit bounce around behind those eyeballs you know realize until you talk to me in person you like oh you got a lot going on in there man yeah there's this passion is Drive I mean one of the hurricane of ideas yeah and focus and confidence hmm the thing is in a lot of the things he does which I admire greatly from any man or woman innovator it's just boldly fearlessly pursue

new ideas are jumping off the cliff and learning to fly in the way down hmm that that's I mean no matter what happens he will be remembered as a great innovators of our time whatever you say maybe in my book Steve Jobs was as well even if you criticize perhaps he hasn't contributed significantly to the technological development of the company are the different ideas they did still his Brilliance was in all the products of iPhone of the the personal computer Mac and so on and I think the same is true with with with Ilan and yes there's in this space of autonomous vehicles of of semi autonomous vehicles of driver assistance systems

it's a pretty tense space to operate in there's several communities in there that are very responsible but also aggressive in their criticism hmm so in driving in the automotive sector obviously since Henry Ford and before there's been a culture of safety of just great engineering these are like some of the best engineers in the world in terms of large-scale production you talk about Toyota T talk about Ford GM these people know how to do safety well and so here comes along with Silicon Valley ideals that throws a lot of it out the window and says we're going to revolutionize the way we do Automation in general we're going to make software updates to the car once a week twice a week over the air just like that that makes people in the safety engineers and human factors Engineers really uncomfortable like what do you mean you're going to keep updating the software of the car without like

are you testing it right that makes people really uncomfortable why does it make him uncomfortable because the way in the automotive sector you test the system you come up with a design of the car every component and then you go through like really rigorous testing before it ever hits the road all right here's an idea from the Tesla side is where they basically they in Shadow mode test the software but then they just release it so essentially the drivers become the testing mmm and then they regularly update it to to to adjust a if any issues arise that makes people uncomfortable because there's not a standardized testing procedure there's not there's not at least the feeling in the industry of rigor because the reality is we don't know how to test software in the same kind of with the same kind of rigor that we've tasted the automotive system tested Automotive system in the past so I think it's extremely exciting and Powerful too

make software sort of approach Automotive Engineering with at least in part a software engineering perspective so just doing what's made Silicon Valley successful so updating regularly aggressively innovating on the software side so your Tesla over the air while we're sitting here could get a totally new update right the flip of a bit as Elon Musk says it can be you can gain all new capabilities that's really exciting but that's also dangerous and that that balance we what's dangerous about it that would be faulty software faulty a bug so if your your the apps on your phone you know fail all the time where as a society used to software failing and we just kind of reboot the device will restart the app most complex software systems in in the world today if we think outside of nuclear engineering and so on

they're really nobody there too complex to really thoroughly test so thorough complete testing proving that the software is safe is nearly impossible on most software systems that that's a that's a that's nerve-racking to a lot of people because this there's no way to prove that the new software update is safe so what it what is the process like do you know like how they create software they update it and then they test it on something how much testing do they do and what how much they do before they upload it to your car yes I don't have any inside information but I have a lot of sort of public available information which is they they test the software Shadow mode meaning they see how the new software compares to the current software by running it in parallel on the cars and seeing if there is disagreements if like

seeing if there's any major disagreements and bringing those up and seeing what my parallel I'm sorry do you mean both programs running at the same time one the original of the yes at the same time the original update actually controlling the car and the new update is just making the same decision making the same decisions without them being without reflecting the actual okay without actually affecting the vehicles Dynamics and so that's that's a really powerful way of testing I think the software infrastructure that Tesla has built a loss for that and I think other companies should do the same that's a really exciting powerful way to approach not just automation that just autonomous vehicles are semi autonomous vehicles but just safety is basically all the data that's on cars bring it back to a central point to where you can use the edge cases all the weird situations in driving to improve the

to test the system to learn to understand where the cars used misused how can be improved and so on as an extremely powerful how many people they have that are analyzing almost data it's a really good question so they have

the interesting thing about driving is most of it is pretty boring nothing interesting happens so they have automated ways of extracting again what are called edge cases so these weird moments of driving and once you have these weird moments they have people annotate it I don't know what the number is but a lot of companies are doing this it's in the hundreds and thousands basically of humans annotate the data to see what happened but most of what they're trying to do is to automate that annotation so to figure out how the debt they too can be automatically used to improve the system so they have they have methods for that because it's a huge amount of data and I think in the recent autonomy day a couple weeks ago that this big autonomy day with a demonstrated the vehicle driving itself on a particular stretch of road they they showed off the you know they're able to query the data basically ask questions of the data saying example they gave us

a bike on the back of a car the bicycle on the back of a car and they're able to say Well when the bicycles in the back of a car that's not a bicycle that's just the part of the car and they're able to now look back into the data and find all the other cases the thousands of cases that happened all over the world in Europe and Asia in South America and North America and so on and pull all those elements and then train the train perception system of autopilot to be able to to better recognize those bicycles as part of the car so every Edge case like that they go through mmm saying okay the car freaked out in this moment let me find moments like this in the rest of the data and then improve the system so it's it's a this kind of cycle is the way to deal with with problems with failures of the system is to say every time the car fails it's something say is this part of a bigger

set of problems can I find all those problems and can I improve it with a new update and it just keeps going the open question is how many Loops like that you have to take for the car to become really good better than human so basically how hard is driving how many weird situations when you manually Drive do you deal with every day somebody somebody mentioned I don't know there's like millions of cases when you watch video you see them somebody mentioned that they drive a truck a UPS truck and past cow pastures

and they know that if there's no cows in the cow cow pasture that means they're grazing and if they're grazing I mean like be using the correct terms I apologize not a car guy that that means that there may be calls up ahead on the road there's just this kind of reasoning it can use to anticipate difficult situations and we do we do that kind of reasoning about like everything cars today can't do that kind of reasoning there just perceiving what's in front of them now outside of Tesla how many other companies have autonomous systems that are driving the cars so maybe it's good to step back there several and their several leaders in each different approach so first let's draw a line between the different types of systems that are okay one there's fully autonomous vehicles so these are cars you can think about that don't have a steering wheel or if they have a steering wheel it doesn't matter they're in full control and if there's a crash the car companies liable

those exist no

okay it's a gray area though because many companies are basically saying that that's what they're doing but they're not quite there so the leader in that space is used to be called Google self-driving car program now is called way Mo they are doing that there it's called level 4 level 5 there's levels to this game this is this particular level where it's fully autonomous now they're trying to achieve full autonomy but the way they're doing it currently is there testing on public roads with what's called a safety driver so there's a driver always ready to take over

and the driver does have to take over at some rate you know frequently and so the fact that the driver has to take over that's not fully autonomous than right so there's no car today that you can just get in without a safety drive so there's nobody behind the wheel and using your app sort of get from point A to point B right but out of the cars that are semi-autonomous where there is an autonomous program but you do have to keep your hands on the wheel and P pay attention to the road what what are the leaders besides Tesla there's Tesla and who else is doing it so there's there's several systems it depends how you Define leader but so are the one really can see this like this Mercedes and BMW they use the same system to they did someone make a system for cars or do they create their own system yeah that's a really good question so there's in some cases there's mobile eye

and Nvidia there's these companies that Nvidia the the video card company car company yep the same the same folks that power the Quake game right right the the graphics on the Quake game you can use those GPU Graphics processing units to run machine learning code so they're also creating the you that Nvidia Drive scalable AI platform for autonomous driving in fact I don't when did you buy a Tesla

five months ago or something something like that so the thing in there now most likely is a Nvidia Drive PX 2 system so the and that works on cameras that that just runs code that takes in camera data but it can work on anything else so it could work on lidars well so many have a system yeah but it need different code so lidar requires very different kinds of processing very does anybody use that with cars with a semi-autonomous cars lighter yes the as well okay so semi-autonomous we have to be careful right because the way Mo cars like the the quote-unquote fully autonomous cars are currently semi-autonomous right okay so the very highest level of semi-autonomous right yeah that guess it's not even a highest level it's a principle it's a philosophy difference because they're saying we're going to do full autonomy we just not quite there yet most other companies they're doing semi-autonomous

are called driver assistance systems is they're saying we're not interested in full autonomy we just want to driver assistance system that just helps you steer the car so let's call those semi autonomous vehicles or driver assistance systems the there's several leaders in that space like one car were studying that's really interesting is Cadillac SuperCrew system so GM has the system it's called super cruise that I think is the best comparable system to autopilot today the the key differentiator there is there's a lot of little elements but the key differentiators there's a driver monitoring system so there's a camera that looks at you and tells you if your eyes on the road or not and if your eyes go off the road for I believe more than six seconds it starts warning you and says you have to be you have to get your eyes back on the road so that's called driver monitoring that's one of the big disagreements for example you mean Ilan and

many experts in the field and Ilan in the Tesla approach is that there should be a driver monitoring system there should be a camera what does heal on feel like there shouldn't be

I think his Focus the Tesla's focus is on just improving the system so fast and so effectively that it doesn't matter what the driver does that it you know so essentially no safety net no safety net and I think they operate like that on in many ideas that they work with is they sort of boldly proceed forward to try to make the car extremely safe now the concern there is you have to acknowledge the psychology of human beings that unless the car is perfect or under our definition perfect which is much better than human beings then you have to be able to you have to be able to make sure that the people are still paying attention to help the car out when it fails

and for that you have to have drive a modern you have to know what the cars right now your Tesla only knows about your presence be from the steering wheel touching the steering wheel which is a kind of driver monitoring system it knows you're there but it's not nearly as effective at knowing your they're cognitively visually you can be tricked by clamps I've seen people do that they've developed these clamps that you just put on the steering wheel it hold the phone and then also trick the system into thinking that you're holding onto the wheel yeah you can do a lot of purses actually work really well don't ask me how I hang your purse no like shoving a person to know really into the somebody did that with an orange or something like that but they said it didn't work maybe needs to be all the way around the outside of it I think it depends on the shape of the orange how ripe it is this is a lot of debate and no I the point is there's ways to trick the system there's it's not monitoring the driver that's the point where yeah it's not monitoring and driving a lot of people believe you need to you you think you need to make sense yeah I think

I think not just for the safety of the system but to create an experience like I think there's value for the car to know more about you sort of just like that what's happening there it's scanning this guy's eyes nor dear pork shit freaks me out so yeah there's a lot of companies that are springing up there doing computer vision on the face and so on to try to detect where you're looking so what cars have that now the the major one is the super Consciousness not many cars a few cars are starting to add it Europe what's a Super Crew system that's the GM Cadillac okay they're trying to so it's in their super expensive lineup currently and there I think trying to add it to the full lineup of also in like Cadillacs what does that big Cruiser that they have now the big four door car the really high-end ct-6 I don't know what it is they have a new one that's really nice

what they're putting in the big sedan that thing yes I pretty I don't know if that's the ct-6 but the the one we're looking at the CT 6 yeah it's that's this 2018 ct-6 yeah it's you know it's a but they want to add it to their their full Fleet and so really interesting to have the same amount of cameras as the Tesla system does know and it has a very different philosophy as well in another way which is it only works on very specific roads on interstate highways there's something called odede operational design domain so they Define that this thing Super Crew system only works on this particular set of roads and they're basically just major highways the Tesla approach is saying basically what Elon jokingly referred to as ADD right is it works basically anywhere

so if you try to turn on your autopilot you can basically turn on anywhere where the cameras are able to determine either Lane markings or the car in front of you and so that's a very different approach saying you can basically make it work anywhere or in Cadillac case making work on only specific kinds of Roads so you can test the heck out of those roads you can map those roads so you can use actually lidar to map the photo so you know the full geometry of all the the interstate highway system they can operate on and then physically also coordinate with GPS we're sort of understands where like bumps in the road might be or Hills in that sense it coordinates is ups for different curvature information but not the topography the know and like construction is a big one they'll be crazy but new potholes a little potholes is in the big problem I think construction is the big problem like just this quickly changing Dynamic information which like apps like ways provide I mean that's how those are pretty big problem Boston oh

yeah no for sure but New York is actually probably even worse I blew out two tires in one day in New York I'm potholes set an unlucky day yeah but I'd rather you bought your tire the for sure then then I mean the the kind of fatality that happened in in the Mountain View with the Tesla I believe is slightly construction-related so I mean there's a lot of safety critical event yeah but again later stuff I would like if that stupid Tesla could figure out the hole in the ground though so I don't have to blow a tire out I'm like come on bro you're paying Joe figured out but priorities I'll I'll make sure I'll forward this podcast to yawns laughter they work on this I think he's busy yeah what is this Jamie tessalata pot will be able to avoid potholes in the road says Elon Musk ha ha motherfuckers on top of shit what's the date on that April April 7 okay just now and that's an interesting thing that's another that's almost an ethical question

you want a car to avoid a situation by swerving right because when you swerve you now introduced as opposed to sort of breaking the vehicle only you swerving into another Lane means you might create a safety situation elsewhere you might put somebody else in danger yeah that's why I was saying if it coordinated with GPS it would have previous knowledge you know sort of like ways tells you where the cops are yep you know I mean so that kind of information would be extremely powerful and useful to the problem is it's hard to get it really up-to-date that kind of information really up-to-date it's just an infrastructure question just getting the getting the software the data in place to where the car will be able to learn quickly from all the things that are changing I think potholes don't change that often so that that's that's a different thing but in terms of construction zones in terms of other weird things that change the Dynamics the geometry of the road that's that's difficult to

to get right so Cadillacs doing a version of it but it sounds like it's a little bit less and less involved less comprehensive maybe there's a better way of describing yeah and less I would say it's more safety focused as a sort of what's the right word to use here it's more cautious and its implementation so GM again has a has a tradition for better for worse just a Jamie vo they have on their website and this pull apart I'm showing you shows like at the signal coming on oh wow the green thing they touch lady she's too hot it's not paying attention looking to people staring at her no comment one of the one of the things that you it's hard to talk about without actually experiencing the system is what's more important than driving monitoring and any of the details we talk about is like how the whole thing feels the whole thing together how its implemented the whole interface

Ace and the catalog system is actually done really well in a sense that there's a Clarity to it like everything becomes there's a green color and a blue color and you know exactly when the system is on when it's off that's one of the big things people struggle with is just confusing it in other cars drivers not being able to understand when the system is on or off right so you think the system is doing it and then just slam into something it wasn't even on now when this car is operating in this manner how many cameras is it using

that's a good question I should know that but I think it's only forward to facing cameras as far as I know I think it's two cameras it maybe three cameras that would you just stop back so she doesn't have her hands on the wheel at all yep so she's watching right because the car is able to see where the eyes are it's a hands-off system so you're allowed to take your hands off the wheel it's very interesting it's and there are certain human behavior aspects that come into play to this so you start to like I found myself actually becoming a little more drowsy with this system I haven't driven it enough so I haven't gotten used to it but you have to at least in the initial stages it kind of forced you to look at the road in a way that felt artificial think it's something that gets better with time you get used to it but it's almost like a gamified thing that the the car when you look off-road start

to tell you that you're looking off road so you kind of psychologically pressure to always stare at the road and you realize that actually when you drive you off and look around and so having to like stare forward can be a little bit yeah exactly you start think there's something so now useful and hypnotic about those Lanes just coming at you and just the lines yeah why is that that confuses the shit out of me because I could not be tired at all but if it's night time I'm on the highway and those lines they just start to yeah Turk you to Dream Land I get the same with there's also just the vibration is that like that that hum of driving same with trains yeah yeah planes as well yeah puts me out so that that there's a Cadillac system that's the big leader I would say in the driver monitoring and then Tesla is the no driver monitoring and huge data collection BMW has a system as well to use

yeah BMW what are they using I don't I don't want to speak too much to the details of the devil and keeping systems the basically systems that keep you in the lane that is similar to what in spirit autopilot is supposed to do but is less aggressive and how often you can use in so on if you look at the performance of the of the actual how often the system is able to keep you in Lane autopilot is currently the leader in that space and they're also the most aggressive innovators in that space so they're like really pushing it to improve further and further and the open question is the whirring question is if it improves much more are there going to be effects like complacency like people will take will start texting more we start looking off-road more that's a it's a totally open question and nobody knows the answer to it really and there's a lot of folks that can mentioned in the safety engineers and human factors community so these psychology folks who have

it's in like Aviation that know there's there's been 70 years of work that looks at vigilance that people if I force you to sit here and monitor for something weird happening like radar operators in the World War II had to watch you know for the dot to appear if I sit you behind that radar and make you do it after about 15 minutes but really 30 minutes you'll see your rate of being able to detect any problems will go down significantly you just kind of zone out mmm and so there's like all kinds of psychology studies that show that we just were crappy human beings are really crappy and monitoring automation if I tell you if I put a robot on you just say monitor this system so it doesn't kill anyone you'll you'll tune in we have to be engaged you have to be engaged you have to be you know there has to be a dance attention kind of we don't without have a mode for watching autonomous things right if you consider there are historically the kind of modes that

left for observing things we don't really have a mode for making sure that an autonomous thing does its job yeah it's son of mindsets not like oh you know what I mean like if in my car okay I'm driving here we go whoa driving turn I'm thinking I'm in driving mode when you're in autonomous mode and you're observing it's like what is this I've never done this before us fucking weird it feels weird it's not part of human nature is a normal State one thing it's done commonly in now is Aviation so pilots pilots are basically monitoring fully autonomous planes you know it's good point as far as I know many planes today could fly almost fully autonomously it's also a good point when it comes to software and updates because isn't that part of the issue with this Boeing 737 active system yeah these systems that they've had problems with the been faulty and a couple of crashed yeah and that's a really good point and they they've yeah there's been two tragic crash has recently with

so without the Mac system and give they've bench those things right haven't they I'm not following they also got rid of a bunch of inspectors I think they fired like 80 inspectors today and the unions are freaking out yep and there's obviously this politics have actually is I think fa is supposed to supervise and they were there was there's a close relationship between Boeing FAA there's questions around and there's better experts at that the me but on the software side it is worrying because it was a single software update essentially that helps prevent the the vehicle of the vehicle the airplane from stalling so if it's if the nose is tilting up increasing chances of stalling it's going to automate automatically point the nose down the airplane and the the pilots in many cases as far as I understand weren't even informed of this update right they won't even told this happening the idea behind the update is that they're not supposed to really know it's supposed to

just manage the flight for you right the problem happened when there's a angle of attack sensor so the sensor that tells you the actual tilt of the plane and there's a malfunction in that sensor as far as I understand both planes and so the plane didn't actually understand its orientation so the system starts freaking out started pointing the nose down aggressively and the pilots were like trying to reach stabilize the plane and couldn't so shortly after liftoff the just yes that's software update that's crazy and that that's that's that's a safety culture that's dealing with this new world of software that we don't know what to do with you know and yeah it's a question one way is to be sort of a little bit Luddite I use the term carefully and just be afraid and say you know what we should really not allow so many software updates the other one is sort of embracing it and redefining what it means to build safe

AI systems in this modern world with updates multiple times a week what do you think I knew it so I'm a hundred percent for the for the software approach so I think updates regular updates so combining the two cultures but really letting good software engineering lead the way this way to go there is I wish other companies were competing with Tesla on this there on the software side Tesla is far ahead of everyone else in the automotive sector and that's one of the problems I am worried that you know competition is good right and I'm worried there's people away too far behind to actually give Tesla new ideas I'll compete test on software so most cars are not able to do over the air as far as I know no cars are able to do major over-the-air updates except as the vehicles they

do over-the-air updates to the entertainment system like you know if your radio is malfunctioning but in terms of the control of the vehicle you have to go to the dealership to get an update Tesla is the only one that over the air like it can multiple times a week do the update I think that should be a requirement for all car companies but that requires that the rethink the way they build cars that's really that's really scary when you manufacture over a million cars a year and Toyota and GM to say especially old-school Detroit guys and gals that are like legit car people to say we need to hire some software engineering that's a challenge it's a totally you know I don't know how often you've been Detroit but there's a culture difference in Detroit in Silicon Valley and those two have to come together to solve this problem so I have like the adult responsibilities of Detroit how to do production well manufacturer how to do safety well how to test the vehicle as well

and do the Bold crazy Innovative Spirit Silicon Valley which you know a mosque in basically every way represents and that I think that will Define the future of these of actually AI in general I mean interacting with AI systems just even outside the automotive sector requires these questions of safety of AI safety of how we supervise the system how we manage them from misbehaving and so on we're also there's a concern about those systems being vulnerable to third-party attacks yeah so hacking yeah that's a that's a that's a fascinating question I think there is a whole discipline called adversarial machine learning and AI which basically any kind of system you can think of how we can feed it examples how we can add a little bit of noise to the system to full it completely so there have been demonstrations on Alexa for example where

I can take you can take you can feed noise into the system that's imperceptible to us humans and make it believe you said anything so foolish system into thinking so ordering extra toilet paper I don't know in the same for cars you can feed noise into the cameras to make it believe that there is or there isn't a pedestrian there is or there isn't Lane markings so someone could do this in theory at least in theory that's the big difference is in theory is doable you can do demonstrations in practices actually really difficult to do in the real world so in the lab you can do it you can construct a situation where a pedestrian can wear certain types of clothing or put up a certain kind of sign where they disappear from the system I have to ask you this could know just remember this you'd be the perfect person to talk about this I'm not sure if you remember this case but there was a guy named Michael Hastings Michael Hastings was a journalist and he was I believe

Iraq or Afghanistan he was somewhere overseas and he was stuck there because of this volcano that erupted in I believe Iceland and he was over there for the Rolling Stone magazine and doing doing an article about a general well he stayed there for a long time because they were stranded because of the volcano and they got real comfortable around him and he reported a lot of the stuff that they said and did that maybe they thought that he probably wouldn't have reported on including them saying disparaging things about President Obama at the time anyway comes back the general was forced to resign he was a beloved General and Michael Hastings was in fearing for his life because he thought that they were going to come and get him because these people were very very angry at him he wound up driving his car into a tree going a hundred twenty miles an hour in the car exploded and the engine went flying

and people that were the conspiracy theorists were saying they believe that that car had been rigged to work autonomously or that someone for some third-party bad person decided to or good person depending on your perspective decided to drive that guy's car into a fucking tree at a hundred twenty miles an hour do you think that that and this is 2011

Michael Hastings death 12 maybe 2012

let's see what it says 2013 do you think that in 2013 that would have been possible

it's entirely possible no I just wanted to say that huh shout out to The Joe Rogan subreddit okay check that one off the list Jamie pull that up shot off

whether it's possible is an interesting question whether it's likely is another question II think it's very unlikely and the other most important questions that something we should worry at scale about our future it's cars being used to assassinate essentially become I'm Russian so I've heard of those things being done by our friend Putin over I think I think it's very unlikely that this kind of thing would happen scale that people would use this I think there would be more effective ways to achieve this kind of end for sure and I just think it's a very difficult technical challenge that if hacking happens it would be at a different level than hacking the AI systems it will be just hacking software right and hacking software is the kind of the kind of thing that can happen with anything

an elevator so elevator software or any kind of software that operates any aspect of Our Lives could be hacked and that same kind of right my question though was in 2013 was that technology available where they could take over someones car

you know what car it was Mercedes I think it was an S-Class you to see see see class it's yes yes yes but I don't think I'll boy this is like it's listen this is been widely speculated I know I'm just asking you because you're actually an expert I mean it's very rare that you get an expert in autonomous vehicles and you get to run a conspiracy theory by them to see if they can just put a stamp on it being possible or not let me just say that Alex Jones is officially not allowed to say MIT scientist says exactly what he's going to try to do no I'm first of all let me back off and say I am not a security expert which is a very important difference that is important I so then autonomous vehicle I build autonomous Vehicle Systems I don't know how to make them extremely robust the security to hacking attacks and have a lot of really good friends which are some of the coolest people I know who are basically

Packers converted to Security Experts I would say though Loosely speaking I think the technology was there yes for with physical access to the car to be able to control it but I don't I think it's extremely unlikely that's what happened I see where you're coming from I'm not asking you whether or not it's likely that it happened I'm sure you don't even have much information on the case because I had explained it to you right that's right the guy also had some serious amphetamines in his system they compared it to crystal meth but the reality is he was a journalist and most journalists honestly most a lot or on Adderall and Adderall is essentially amphetamines mean that's what it is it's real it's like it's like next door neighbors to Crystal Meth really is

he is it well you said it's possible they could actually get it to turn the wheel yes I have to look at the exact system like I said drive-by-wire thing that I mentioned some systems are not it's not so easy to turn the wheel actually right could we could get him to just accelerate out of control just going like a hundred and twenty something miles an hour and it slammed into a tree it's entirely possible you can't do it twice the system's back then though we're far more primitive correct yeah yeah but it's it's really again the the attack vectors here the so the way you hack these systems I have more to do with the software low level software that can be primitive then the high-level AI stuff right but my issue with it was there's no cameras on the outside of the vehicle like there is on Tesla of today which has autonomous driving as an option as a so okay I see your point so you wouldn't be hacking the system that perceives the world and actress in the world it would

really be malfunction that forces it to not be able to break Excel right controllable right which is a you know it's a more basic kind of attack and then control then making the car steer out of Lane yes yes that's a different that's what people worry about with autonomous vehicles once more and more you're talking about potentially 1020 million lines of source code and this is all this code and so obviously becomes amenable susceptible to bugs that can be exploited to hack the code and so people are worried legitimately so that the security attacks would would lead to these kind of what at the worst case assassinations but yeah really sort of just basic basic attacks basic hacking attacks and I think it's I think that's something that people in the automotive industry and certainly Tesla is really working hard

Dawn and making sure that the edit everything is secure there's going to be of course vulnerabilities always but I think they're really serious about preventing them but in the demonstration space you'd be able to demonstrate some interesting ways to trick the system in terms of computer vision the this all boils down to

that these systems are actually that are ones that are camera-based are not as robust as our human eyes are to the world so like I said if you had a little bit of noise you can convince it to see anything to us humans it look like the same road like the same three pedestrians cross you draw like a little person on the camera lens cameras right you could get down there with a sharpie that's my God there's a guy in the road that's that's one attack Vector that's is draw stuff but it you jokingly say that but that's I believe this the sun plays tricks on Cadillac super Cruise Next Generation system will address camera problem all those long as the next generation of dresses it you fucking assholes the sun plays tricks on it so next-gen system something going to have to bring that Cadillac into the dealership and they're going to have to update the song update it yeah whereas tests we'll just handle that shit over there yeah I got an update the other day I was like all right and that's a question Sam was so that that's an exciting powerful

capability but then the Bowing the flip side is you know it can significantly change the behavior of the system and there could be a glitch that could be a glitch that could be a bug that as the Boeing ones terrifying especially with a lot of I mean that number whatever it is it's like 300 combined 300-plus people dead maybe even four hundred I mean I don't even know how to think think about that number yeah I'll from a software glitch the guy who coated it with a girl coded it must feel fucking terrible

yeah and you kind of work man it's the it's a lot of burden and it's one of the reasons it's one of the most exciting things to work on actually is the code we write

has the capability to save human life but the terrifying thing is also has the capability to take human life and that's a that's a weird place to be as an engineer or directly a little piece of code you know I write thousands of them a day you know basically notes you're taking could eventually lead to somebody dying now is 0 I don't know anything about coding but do you have like a is there a spell check for coding yeah so it's kind of called debugging is trying to find bugs and it's a software that's doing this yeah software so there's depending on the programming language and everybody should if you if you haven't tried programming you should try it it's cool it's the future should learn to program okay that's my plug you supposed to learn to code you can get kicked out loud what did that I heard that this apartment scared of it it's a problematic term I don't actually know why it's the dumbest fucking problematic code of all time because someone

ridiculously was suggesting that coal miners could maybe learn how to compile code computer code and like get a different job they could be trained and so as some the way people are looking at it like that that was a like a frivolous suggestion and that it was ridiculous to try to get someone who was 50 years old it doesn't have any education in computers at all to change their job from being a coal miner to learning how to code so they started saying it to politicians and people mocking it but then what Twitter alleged was that what was going on was it was being connected to white supremacy and anti-Semitism and a bunch of different things like people were saying learn to code and they were putting in a bunch of these other phrases in my suggestion would be will that's the different fucking thing like now you have like you look you have a problem with Nazis and white supremacist but that's the problem is with Nazis and white supremacist when someone is

just saying learn to code mocking this ridiculous idea that you're going to teach you know that's a that's a legitimate criticism of someone's perspective that you're going to get a coal miner to learn how to fucking do computer coding it's crazy it's so people getting banned for that rightly so people were Furious the way Google described it to me and Tim pool and we were discussing it was that Google I mean excuse me Twitter the way Twitter described it was that essentially they were dealing with something where they were trying to censor things at scale there was there was so many people and there's so much going on that it's very difficult to get it right and that they've made mistakes I think that's a fast one of the most fascinating applications of AI actually is filtering trying to manage you to learning the little so using machine learning to manage this huge conversation you talk about 500 I believe it's 500 million tweets a day something like that and Jamie Mitchell he's three

how's it going to add with this conversation I saw this recently I don't know who did the data on this but there's a statement someone put on Twitter that said that of let me see if I can work it correctly was 22 percent of adult Americans are on Twitter well alright so that's like that's like a fact one of that 10% make up 80% of the tweets created by adult Americans so much sense to percent of the people on Twitter make up 80% of the tweets yeah that makes sense yeah a lot of people are arguing aggressively and the question how to manage that and you can't manage that by just manual

review of The Action Hero Tory yeah you have to have so many employees yeah that's I think more likely I don't think Jack is lying but nor is video but I do think that they have a clear bias against conservatives and that's being shown so that's an interesting question I have your friend my friend and Mentor argh Weinstein yeah talk to me I do disagree with him a little bit on this I think he basically believes so there's a bias it boils down to the conversation that Jack is having at the at the top level inside Twitter what what is that conversation like I think I tend to believe again this might be my naive nature is that they have they don't have bias and they have just they're trying to manage this in a huge flood of of tweets and what they're trying to do is not by is not to remove some of the

Rivers a liberals and so on they're trying to remove people that lead to others leaving the conversation so they want more people to be in the conversation I think that's true as well but I think they definitely are biased against conservative people there is a Alexander Alexandra AOC Octavia hasn't aoc's good Cortez is the last one is it Octavia Ocasio that's right okay I'm sorry Alexandra AOC sorry I'm just I'm thinking I was it wasn't planning on talking about her but there was a parody account and someone was running this parody account which was very mild just humorous parody account they were banned permanently for running it and then their own account was banned as well whereas

yeah there's some Progressive people or liberal people that post all sorts of crazy shit and they don't they don't get banned at the same rate it's really clear that someone in the company whether it's up for manual review whether it's at the discretion of the people that our employees when you're thinking about a company that's a Silicon Valley company you are in without doubt you're dealing with people that are leaning left there's so many that lean left in Silicon Valley the idea that that company was secretly run by Republicans is ridiculous there are other almost all run by democrats or Progressive people so that the leadership level there's a narrow mindedness that that that permeates all Silicon Valley you're saying well the question is I think there's a leaning left that permeate Silicon Valley I think that's undeniable I think it's undeniable I mean I think if you had a poll that people that work in Silicon Valley where their political leanings are I think it would be by far

I think would be the vast majority does that mean that affects their decisions well what's the evidence well it's kind of shows that it does you know it's they're not treating it with a hundred percent Clarity and and across-the-board accuracy or fairness rather I think that there's absolutely people that work there that lean and there's been videos where they've captured people that were Twitter employees talking about it talking about how you do that how you make their fight you find someone who's using Trump talk or you know saying sad at the end of things and someone is talking he's going to you know that certain characteristics they look for his been videos of what is that project Veritas with that guy got it is employees got undercover footage of Twitter employees talking about that kind of stuff question is how much power do those individuals have how many individuals are there like that are that are those people exaggerating their ability and what they do at work or they are they

about something that used to go on but doesn't go on anymore I don't know I don't work there I think it boils down to I'm one of those people that believes it's it was not to the leadership some people at the top set the culture and the culture has to be it cannot be this kind of Silicon Valley narrow-minded sort of left-leaning thinking even if you believe even if you're a hardcore liberal you cannot when you operate the come when you drive and manage a conversation in the entire world you have to think about Middle America you have to think about have two fundamental respect for human beings who voted for trump it is concerning thing for me to see just an arrow - of and all forms one of the reasons I enjoy listening to this podcast is your pretty open-minded that open-mindedness is essential for leaders of Facebook and Twitter people who are managing conversations I think so too I think it's I think it's a

thought of being open-minded and acting in that ethic is probably one of the most important things that we could go forward with right now because things are getting so greasy it's so slippery on both sides and we're at at this weird position that I don't recall ever in my life they're being such a divide between the right and the left in this country I don't it's more more vicious more Angry more hateful it's different than any other time in my life and I think a lot of our ideas are based on these narratives that may or may not even be accurate and then we support them and we reinforce them on either side we reinforce them on the left we reinforce them on the right where if you looking at reality itself and you don't have these clear parameters and these clear ideologies I think we're way most of us are way more in the middle than we think we are most of us are we just don't want racist running the country

we don't want socialist giving all our money away we don't want to pay too much in taxes to a shitty government we don't want schools getting underfunded we all you know and then we decide what what does my team like the team that I the shit that I like is that this team well not everything but they got a lot of things so I'll go with them maybe I'm not a religious nut but I'm fiscally conservative and I don't like with Democrats like to spend money I'm gonna go with the Republicans you know maybe maybe I'm you know more I'm more concerned with the state of the economy and the way we trade with the world than I am with certain social issues that the Democrats Embrace so I'll lean that way even though I do support gay rights and I do support this I do support all these other Progressive ideas this way more of us in that boat there's way more of us that are in this middle of the whole thing for sure but there it goes up and down so all of us I believe I hope I am open-minded most of the time but you have different moods oh for sure yeah and

the question is this is where the role of AI comes in does the AI that recommends what tweets I should see what Facebook messages as you see is that encouraging the darker parts of me or the the Steven Pinker better angels of our nature like is it what stuff is it showing me because if it shows me stuff that the if the AI trains purely unclicks it made start to learn when I'm in a bad mood and point me to things that might be upsetting to me yeah and so escalating that Division and escalating this vile thing that can be solved most likely with people training or more digits or something well these this Facebook algorithm that encourages people to be outraged because accidentally not even on purpose but this is what engages people with this is what gets clicks so they find out oh well he clicks on things and he finds out that people are anti vaccination or he clicks on

things when he finds out you know what it fill in the blank with whatever the subject is and then you get these motherfuckers you know this is a reason why measles is spreading and you start getting an angry I mean the anti-vaxxers arguments on Facebook I don't know if you ever dip into those waters for a few minutes yeah and watch people fight back and forth and in Fury and anger you know it's it's another one of those things that becomes a extremely lucrative subject for any social media Empire if you're if you're all about getting people to engage and that's where the money is in advertising like to getting people to click on the page and the bads around those page get those clicks get that money if that's how the system is set up and I'm not exactly sure how it is because I don't really use Facebook but that's what it benefits I mean that's what that's what it gravitates towards gravitates towards controversy so and when we think about concern for AI systems to talk about sort of Terminator I'm sure we'll touch at it but I think of Twitter as a whole is one

it is mm-hmm that is the thing that worries me the most is the artificial intelligence that is very kind of dumb and simple simple algorithms that are driving the behavior of millions of people right and at together the kind of chaos that we can achieve I mean that algorithm has incredible influence on all Society Twitter are our current president is on Twitter so much yeah all day all night the the I mean it's scary to think about we talk about autonomous vehicles leading to a fatal one fatality to fatality is scary to think about what the difference between Small Change in that in the Twitter algorithm I mean I could start wars it really could and that if you think about the long term if you think about is one AI organism that is a super intelligent organism that we have no control over hmm and I think it all boils down honestly to the leadership to Jack to

it to another folks like him making sure that he's open-minded it goes hunting that he goes does some Jujitsu that he eats a meat and sometimes goes vegan right you know he did a just to attend a talk 'less Retreat we don't talk at all for 10 days he also eats one like he does I followed some of the data to him eats once a day hmm I've done that and fast all through the weekend which I don't I don't know I've never done that but I've done some I've done quite a few 24-hour you know where I eat at 7 p.m. I'm done eating I don't touch food until 7:00 p.m. the next day it's just water or coffee why do you do it by the way yeah that's to it to shock my system I think it's good for your system you know there's been a lot of research on fasting and the effect it has on telomeres dr. Rhonda Patrick spoke pretty recently there's been quite a few things that she's written about in terms of fasting the benefits of fasting intermittent fasting is great for weight loss but

just fasting itself even for several days most people seem to get some pretty decent benefits out of it so I dabble in it I also like the way it makes me feel to be a little hungry I think my brain is sharper like I refuse to go on stage full I will when I when I do stand-up and I actually learned this from a Katt Williams interview he was talking about it and he's crazy as fuck but he's hilarious and he's one of the greats in my opinion and he was in the back of a limo and he was talking about how he prepares for show that he has his music that he listens to pre-show music as like a music list and then he have a drink no food won't eat because it slows you down I was like the slow you down but sometimes you don't even think of it's not like a rule so you just man I'm hungry I'll just eat I would way rather because I can go through a couple of shows I used to think I used to have this faulty idea that if I didn't eat I would be exhausted to do things but then I work out fasted every morning every morning

when I when I get my morning workout in and whatever the fuck it is it's usually hard I'm always fasted you could do a lot it's you're not it's not at your best like if I was going to do Jujitsu I don't do Jujitsu fasted I would I would eat some fruit that's an interesting one because that was the transformational thing from eggs to do powerlifting you see like five times a day six times day whatever more like CT Fletcher style yeah see how big he was yeah back in the day oh he's only maybe like my height or a half-inch taller some shit he was 320 pounds so what he said 3:15 fuck he was so big yeah you're saying it like a trouble thing is when you get that big and I wasn't that big but it's like hard to move oh yeah it's like not healthy if you did you see the image of him from yesterday I didn't see the image of the way he when he Jamie put up a photograph of him at 315 pounds next to him at like to ish-200 issues like water it's and

incredible how big you was mean everything with his like his arms were my legs and they were just coming out of his shoulders so that was a big moment for me there he is there's the pictures

no biggie was when he was a world champion I mean just insanely huge wow yeah so when you started training in Jiu-Jitsu you look up that in the blonde on the right dude he's 50 look at that all natural to all natural at 50 crazy some fuckin genetic song that's some good work oh yeah excessive not just hard work I mean you have to be a fucking Maniac yeah but the fact that his body holds up like that at 50s incredible yeah he's in this bration but I like for me switching from that to Jujitsu I thought there's no way I trained hard I train twice a day Jiu-Jitsu for a while and we doing two roles a day we doing like technique and drills one one tile is listen I'm rushing I'll just drill hard I'm upset no no Russian drilling let me explain to you something technical okay what do you explain to me I'm trying to explain to you the difference in Russian and American America is in wrestling in a

in a lot of Combat Sports is like heart and guts and hard work over and Russian is certainly in wrestling's technique is drilling they put a lot more hours than Americans do at less than a hundred percent effort so like really drilling the really getting that right like I love that fact one of the problems is I haven't been able to really ever found I was always the last one to get bored drill e oq gotta find a good drilling partner like an abscessed one yeah a shout out to Sarah block Juke Judo lady is a black belt in Jujitsu as well that was willing to put up with like hundreds or thousands of throws that we each did hmm so like that that obsessive - yeah I love that kind of stuff because I think that's where you get better yeah yeah yeah that's where is not everybody believes that people some people believe especially G it's like you can't really get timing from drilling I believe you can get everything from drilling of the timing the

the because is as long as the other part it's not just aimless drilling it's your mind is in it your brain should be exhausted by the end of it too because you're visualizing the whole thing you're like going through you're imagining how your opponent would it's really strengthening your imagination while you're also doing the drilling I couldn't agree more yeah I firmly believe in get better way better Drilling and when I went from I think blue belt to purple I did like the most drilling that I ever did ever and that's when I grew the most that's when my technique got way better that was also when I became friends with Eddie Bravo and Eddie Bravo is a huge driller huge oh he drills man they they drill like crazy and they do a lot of live drills and they do a lot of pathway drills where they'll do like a whole series of movements and then escape and then the reversal and they look at these are long Pathways so that when you're actually in a scrap and you're Rollin you use you recognize it like

okay here it is on passing the guard and move it to here and now he's countering me but I'm setting up this and these pathway drills there's it's so critical because it comes up over and over and over again when you're actually live rolling you know you feel it you feel like oh I've been here before I know this is I'd be curious actually to hear I don't think I've ever heard you talk about how your game is my game changed significantly from white belt to Bluebell to Purple belt and started to solidify but I'd be curious to hear like what how did your game change since you met Eddie gaming Jiu-Jitsu well my um most of my game came from Eddie like 99 point something percent of it almost all of it and John jock those two so it's like I was a blue belt before I was friends with Eddie but I was terrible like what guard do you prefer for example well I do rubber guard I'm very flexible so rubber guard is no issue with me and I think it's incredibly effective I think if you're good at it and you know you get stuck under a guy

like what is the name of Jeremiah Vance is Eddie's one of Eddie's black belts who's a murderer from its back is rubber guard is insane it's insane Eddie's rubber guards and saying I mean you know obviously tap toilet Gracie has a ridiculous guard common triangle but there's a lot of people that understand it now a lot of people that know how to do it it's it's a real art form and the thing about it versus other guards is when you're in a position like mission control and you can't you know Vinny Magalhaes is phenomenal at it I mean he what's that video fuck this guy up yeah watch this is Jeremiah Jeremiah Vance is one of Eddie's best look at this from the bottom bam he does that all the time triangle from the bottom off rubber guard that guys wrapped up that's that's out cold he does this all the time he's one of Eddie's best rubber guard assassins and if you watch his technique and his fucking Sensational he also has

leg locks to but the thing is that you know when he'll attack from his legs and I'll tap people with a leglock but if they escape sometimes they'll Escape into this just do some deep shit right here but now he's going to take us back but if they escaped often times he's on the bottom and when you're on top him it's one of the worst places in the world to be his guard is fucking incredible and it's because of that see that grip see how he's holding the rubber Garden position that the Mission Control Commission commission control mission control from a guy like Jeremiah is fucking ruthless because he has his arm and his legs it's controlling your neck and your posture it's just and then he's going to a go go here and he's phenomenal at this to he's going to get him in a gogoplata or normal Plata it's going to flip them over now he's attacking a leg like it's just constant and Eddie ever ends yeah ever invent this kind of system well he invented the initial stage of like setting up mission control and go this guy's gettin fucked up oh my God

the why that's horrible but Eddie invented a series of Pathways from Mission Control to set up various techniques armbars triangles all these different things but there had been people that had toyed with doing hi garlic Nino schembri he did a lot of like like rubber guard asked stuff there's a lot of things that people did but he has his own pathway and his own system and then there's a lot of guys that Branch off from that system like Jeremiah like Vinny Magalhaes that have their own way that they prefer to set various techniques up to but what's really good about that if you have the flexibility is that you're when you're on the bottom it's not only is it not a bad place to be but you could put some in some real trouble when you have your ability you're holding onto your ankle and using your leg which is the strongest fucking limb in your body right pulling down on someone with your leg clamping down with your arm and then you get your other leg involved good luck getting out of that good

it's fucking sucks man you have control but you're also able to move at the same time so exactly really does anybody ever puts you in Mission Control before no I haven't competed or against many but even in like someone in class like show it to explain to ya lower ranks have yeah once you once you feel it you go oh shit I remember it being you know when somebody does a nice move on you especially like the lower rank your first reaction is like this would never like you're annoyed yes it's the natural process of the ego course getting rid of you know you see something new and you're like yeah this is stupid if I next time it won't work but then you start to understand a little more I remember it being really powerful controlling position it's powerful and if you have a good offensive attack from there it's powerful as well it's their transitions especially God like Jeremiah who's really flexible you know he can pull off gogoplata 's and all sorts of other things local plot has it's another one that they do

is one that you push with your other foot on the heel it's so nasty you're holding the back of the foot across the back of the neck and so your shin is underneath someone's throat and then you're pushing that Shin with your other heel while you're squeezing with your arm it's ruthless yeah it's ruthless you know and they do a Gable grip around the head when they do this as well sometimes too so it's just a fucking awful place to be so it's not as good as being on top right if you have a crushing top game that's the best if you can get to that position but you can always get to that position so there's guys like Jeremiah that even from the bottom their horrific dangerous ideas dangerous is from the top four most people are you do you find just when you trained back in the day and you still train do you spend more time on bottom or top you always should start I feel like you should always start on the bottom earned the top position this is something Eddie always brought up to because you know if you liked it like it's fun to be on top so a lot of times it's like this mad scramble to

who could force who onto their back right because when you're on top you can control them you can pressure them you know you play that strongman's Jujitsu but the problem is trauma is just some only 200 pounds I'm not a big guy like so if you go to the real big guy like I'm rolling with a 240-pound guy I'm not going to get to that spot yeah like a better have a good guard otherwise I can't do anything right when someone is bigger than you and stronger than you you mean that's what hoist Gracie basically prove to the world like as long as you have technique it doesn't matter where you are but if you only have top game which a lot of people do a lot of people only have top game you know you're kind of fucked if you want up on your back we see that a lot with wrestlers in MMA as wrestlers they can get on top of you and they'll fuck you up they'll strangle you there take your back the beat you up from the mount but they don't have nearly the same game when they're on their back

and then there's guys like Luke rockhold it's like an expert at keeping you on your back he's when he's one of those guys when he gets on top of you you're fucked he's got real horrible top game I mean horrible and sense of if you're his opponent he's going to beat the fuck out of you before he strangles you his top game is insane yeah I hate the feeling some people make you just feel the weight yeah make you suffer for everything you do on bottom yep people that are able to do that are truly humbling yeah wrestlers in particular wrestlers are so good at maybe you see that Jordan Burrows Ben askren match last night fucking credible how good is that guy Journal boss XU yes when I mean do that to a guy like Ben askren mean it shows you Ben hasn't competed I think it nine years true but Ben is one of the greatest I mean I'm a huge fan of his wrestling is so interesting I think that is like the worst matchup for Ben askren I think

because you're taking one of the most creative wrestlers ever in Ben askren I don't want to over over overstate it but he has incredibly creative one of the great pinning wrestler so he pins people he liked confuses them and pins them incredibly well and you you put them against basically a freak blast double like the greatest double Leg Takedown maybe of all time of all time just like somebody put a clip up it said is this it so when you put a clip oh shit he went off the fucking mad into the crowd that's pretty that was the best part is that he defended to take down those the best part but that's crazy man that they have such a drop off with these guys like you shouldn't really have a platform like that where a guy can fall off into the crowd that seems so stupid it rarely happens what the fuck are you talking about it just happened rarely happens they rarely have these it's true this is his argument that's a terrible thing to have that shit flat on the

that is so dumb I can't even believe they did I think this whole mess should be contested doesn't count well I don't I don't you know I think look that's stupid that's not smart Dev a guy who's a fucking Powerhouse of a blast double hitting you and sending you flying to the that's crazy that is crazy that they didn't have anything in place to stop that that's the reason why wrestling takes place on the ground you fucking assholes yeah why you haven't people wrestle on a platform that's what is the show so the the whole show you can have a show whereas on the boards on the grounds called basketball yeah yeah it's on the ground you know it was wearing because Vanessa as an MMA fighter and yeah injured with that box right there right there it could have torn his leave me apart easily well the Silver Lining is that he's okay yeah Silver Lining and and we got to see that you know is interesting Jordan Burrows had on his Instagram there's levels to this you know they're raising his hand up and looks like that's what we got

see because Ben is a phenomenal wrestler but you're right he hasn't competed in a long time he's not necessarily at the level that he was back then even though he's incredible for MMA standards it's good to see like it's good it's good to see without with boxing it's good to see that with anything like when Floyd Mayweather fought Connor I think was good to see that but there are really levels to this and the interesting thing about German bars I think he's so good that he's probably going to stay out of MMA so crazy but there are risks are some here's some clips of it but yeah we can't show it to to you people but who put this on Flow wrestling flow wrestling put this on I wonder if people are pirating it online or if they put it online if they're allowing you know they people are pirating it yeah okay yeah good luck stopping that right well I think people should support flow wrestling though they do have like a I'm a member are you look at this look at this God he's good

Yeah man so we're watching this ladies and gentlemen who are just listening it's probably boring as fuck for you but Jordan Burroughs is one of the best wrestlers really a Maryland every ambient three-time world champion yeah tragically not try it well lost in the previous Olympics and he's back at it again I wonder if he's ever considered a man no you know there was some talk about it but I wonder if you ever really I think at this point he's he has basically a no but there are a few terrifying people especially on the Russian side that I that I think the heavyweight Division and I'm and UFC should let you should be really worried I don't know if you heard about the the Russian tank the 22 year old from Dagestan knows this guy wrestler the wrestler he's going to fight MMA no he's a he will after 2020 is what his expectation is for now he's probably going to be the greatest wrestler of all time

I'm really him against Karl Schneider those two heavyweights as American as American another guy right here 20 the tank of Dagestan how do you say his name it says doing right Ally of so I'll I of Abdul Rashid set alive 22 years old Rashid so house Schneider you can do Karl Schneider versus what a great name Abdul Rashid saddle I of it alive that was Russian at Schneider is 23 years old and he is another incredible person who'll do MMA and that competition between Snyder I mean this is look at the look at the look at the thickness these guys are monsters and they're not just how much these guys way I ninety seven kilograms what is a 220 yeah to 20 under 2 to 15 but they cut for it right right just under heavy weight so wouldn't you think they would compete it 205 if they're going to

mme these are heavy weights because so they were just remembering the weight these are still boys o22 right right they still haven't gotten the full like yeah I wonder that about UFC fighters that are thickening up as they get older I wonder how many of them are damaging their body by cutting weight yeah that's a thick fellow so right now we're just seeing mostly stalemate and that's from the American guy and the yeah is it a highlight reel of his or something that we yeah there is but he's pretty young he's a I think he's a he's an Olympic champion and he goes from the whole line of the sites have brothers and the the all the dagestani wrestlers there are so many good Fighters are coming out of Dagestan right now and all technicians yeah it's incredible it's incredible what ever is in water different styles to like stubby legs I beat style very very different than a wrestling heavy style look at this guy Matt Jesus Christ oh my God what a

ball so this is Abdul Rashid Rashid Abdul Rashid Khan said alive so don't tell me how to say it I'll figure it out I don't know I'm shop Dora she'd die before she'd said alive so alive and you know what the beauty there's a poetic yeah there's a poetic nature to the to these guys I mean they're just like could be but really I mean there's simple good people mmm right there the pretty religious and they just kind of they don't even believe in Fame they just believe in excellence well you know that was sort of evident and the the mindset behind them was sort of evident at the end of that fight with Connor where they went crazy and he jumped into the crowd it's like he's not playing games he's not he's not doing this for Instagram likes or for you know this is really he takes trash talking all this stuff very seriously this is all about honor for him I think that was kind of upsetting because true

but but don't do that yeah into that and also respect I'd hate to say but I think there's a certain ethic and honour to the Way Conor McGregor carries himself to all that trash talk if you look at the end of the fights he's very kind he's very kind and respectful in defeat and when they guess it's a different culture you compare the dagestani versus Irish culture is just a different culture and you have to respect that I think could be to be honest this respected Connors culture as much as kannada suspected Community I get what you're saying but I mean when he was done with the fight he didn't keep attacking Connor it was people in the audience were talking shit that were training partners and motion friends I that's sad and he would hit her that for weeks and he was he was done for months he was done he was like fuck you I beat his ass now I'm going to beat your ass and he just said I'm not playing games and he jumped into the fucking crowd I think security could have been handled far better and will be in the future to prevent things like

that from happening where people just jumped into the cage and you know I but I hate seeing that shit but I but I appreciate where he's coming from and that's who the fuck that guy is man that's one of the reasons why he's so good as he does have that mindset it's one of the reasons men one of the reasons why he's so relentless like he's not playing games yeah he is who he is what you see is what you get and what you get is a killer and he's let her smash I would have loved to see Conor McGregor vs. could be it could be before the Mayweather fight like before Connor hmm gotten I think the money makes you less hungry oh for sure and dude I ain't hungry at all I mean it's got a hundred million dollars but I think he still loves to compete but his no hunger anymore like they ain't no hunger I mean he might be hungry for success but he's no desperation yeah I don't know if that's I know what you're saying like he has a lot to lose now to it's a different thing he enters

to a fight with a hundred million dollars in the bank it's a very different experience than entering into the fight with 1 million and hoping that you could make three more tonight and you know like many I'm sure fights that he's had in the past so different world wants whatever he wants forever I mean once a fighter though always a fighter yeah I mean that there is an element there that he still wants glory I believe still only 30 yeah right it's still do it yeah I mean he's I think how old Connor

at the most he's like 32 or some shit 30 yeah he's young man to be set for the rest of your life at 30 is kind of fucking bananas and I don't think he's at his Peak as a fighter so if he just decides who gives a fuck about the money I'm just I'm here to leave a legacy and I'm gonna I'm gonna just train like a fucking demon and he kicks aside all of the bad influences and all the distractions in his life and just focuses on training mean he's a motherfucker man I mean you saw what he did to Aldo saw what he did to Chad Mendes saw what he did to Dustin Poirier I mean he is a bad motherfucker period I know you're gonna shut this down as most fans do but if he drops everything and goes to like Siberia to train I would love to see him and khabib to well there's nothing about that's my friend Hans Mellencamp and Connors Barn just fucking around powerful on it logo in the background like a goddamn on it and yeah I mean

he's always going to have a problem with Kabhi Kabhi ABS wrestling is so high level it's so different he Smothers you in a way that you think you have good takedown defense to you run into that motherfucker he just gets a hold of everyone who does it to everyone was he with your Michael Johnson or Edson Barboza no matter how good your takedown defense looked in the past and the Barboza fighting just basically just weighted towards him waited through the fucking the fury of leg kicks and punches and just clamp drag Smash and that's what he does to everybody man yeah the real thing about a guy like him would be seeing a guy like him against a guy like Jordan Burroughs like could he do that to a guy who was a spectacular wrestler as well then it becomes mean his striking which is gotten very high level is very dangerous striking so I drop Connor he can he can fuck people up he stopped there was some

he's he stopped a few people strikes he me he's dangerous he's dangerous enough on the feet that you would have to I don't know how much how many really high level Grapplers also have like striking that can stand with them because if he decided to keep it up you'd have an advantage there until they you know got good at it him versus been asking would be very interesting well he would have an advantage and striking yes current and in wrestling I don't know no the very difference of big fellow to the same way no oh he's 55 askren 70 okay okay so I asked him could probably make 55 if you torture them he's got a dad bod though and he's so rude now he's proud dad he's proud of his body I think he was that way in college too he was never theirs never likes Brock Lesnar no he was just super technical and it's strong as hell though according to everybody everybody that rolls with him says he's fucking ridiculously strong

you are sometimes say artificial life instead of artificial intelligence yeah because I think that it's a life-form it's a simple way to look at is curious to think about like how do you think about artificial and like what do you picture I picture human beings being like electronic caterpillars that are building a cocoon that they have no real knowledge of our understanding and through this and new life-forms going to emerge a life form that doesn't need cells and mating with X and Y chromosomes doesn't need any of that shit it exists purely in software and in hardware and in ones and zeros and that this is a new form of life this is when the inevitable rise of a sentient being the inevitable I think if we don't get hit with an asteroid within a thousand years or whatever the number the time frame is someone is going to figure out how to make a thing that just

looks around and does whatever it wants and lives like a person that's not outside the realm of possibility and I think that if that does happen that's artificial life and this is the new life and it's probably going to be better than what we are I mean what we are as basically if you go back and look about you know 300,000 400,000 years ago when we were some Australia pithos type creature how many of them would ever look at the future and go - I hope I never get a Tesla the last thing I want is a fucking phone last thing I want is air conditioning and television the last thing I want is to be able to talk in a language that other people can understand and be able to call people on the phone fuck all that man I like living out here running from Jaguars and shit and constantly getting jacked by bears you no no no I wouldn't think that way and I think if something comes out of us and makes us obsolete it but it's it's missing all the things that suck about people

won't be good it won't be present in our in our things suck of uh people complete War violence thievery people stealing things from people people robbing people thing that those dark parts of human nature I think are suffering Injustice I think all of that is necessary for us to discover the the better angels I don't think you can sort of we can talk let's talk about sanctions and creating artificial life but I think even those life forms even those systems need to have the darker parts but why is that is that because of our own biological limitations in the fact that we exist in this world of animals where animals are eating other animals and running there's always you always have to prepare for evil you have to prepare for intruders you have to prepare for you know predators and this is essentially like this mechanism is there to ensure that things don't get sloppy

things continue to about look if the Jaguars keep eating the people in the people don't figure out how to make a fucking house they get eaten and that's it or you figure out the house and then you make weapons you fight off the fucking Jaguar okay great you made it you're in a city now see you had to have that Jaguar there in order to inspire you to make enough safety so that your kids can grow old enough to they can get information from all the people that did survive as well and they can accumulate all that information and create air conditioning and Automobiles and guns and keep those fucking Jaguars from eating your kids right this is this is what had to take place as a biological entity but once you surpassed that and once you become this thing that doesn't need a motion doesn't need you know doesn't need conflict it doesn't need to be inspired it never gets lazy it doesn't have these things that we have built into us as a biological system if you looked at us as

we're operating software it's not good software right it's software designed for cave people and we're you know we're just trying to force it into cars and force it into cubicles but part of the problem with people in their unhappiness is that all of these human reward systems that have been set up through Evolution and natural selection to have these instincts to stay alive they're no longer relevant in today's society so they become become road rage they become you know extracurricular violence it became they become depression they become all these different things that people suffer from so that's one perspective yes that basically our software through this evolutionary process was necessary to arrive at where we are but it's outdated at this point what's necessary for us to succeed the succeed in a purely almost a darwinist way in the sense that survived through Evolution especially since we're so weak I mean it's really we became this week because we got so far

good at protecting ourselves from all the bad things okay the other perspective is that we're actually incredibly strong and this is the best that the Universe can create actually we're at the height this is where the height of creation there's there's a beauty in this tension in this dance between good and evil between like happiness and depression life and death and that through that struggle that's not just the useful tool to get us from Jaguars two cities but that is the beautiful thing that that that is like what the universe was built for that that that is the height like our current the the the evolution and the creation that results from it is the height of creation and it is is the end the way things operate

is not something that's far from optimal it's not something that sucks but it is very is very good very optimal and hard to beat in the sense that the for example mortality right is death important for creation for for is death important for us human beings for life for us as a society is important for us to die like if you could live forever would you live forever well I think miss out on the possibility that there is something well I had this conversation with CT Fletcher yesterday because you know he survived a heart transplant a year ago year in two days ago I think it's

what do you think I think I think mortality is essential for everything that I think the end we need the and to be there right but do you think that we need the end to be there for the overall health of the human race or the order of the all the organisms on Earth or do you think we need to be there because there's something else do you think there's something else that happens to you when your body stops existing do you think your Consciousness transcends this this Dimension I think I think I'm not smart enough to even think about that that's a great answer so I think everybody on Earth has that exact same answer if they're being honest so you talk about atheism and so what I used to think atheism means what I just said so it's but it's more we know so little so the only thing I know is that the

finiteness of life is the Broadway just a school that train it has this poster at the at the opening which is Hunter S Thompson quote which is about skidding into death sideways got the was a good one now for all moments of beauty many Souls must be trampled something like that that's a fucking great quote God I love that guy yeah so basically more Beauty you have to have suffering I I do not disagree with you I do not disagree with any of the things you said and I think there's always a possibility that human beings are the most advanced life-form that's ever existed in the cosmos there's always that that has to be an option if we are here right if we can't see any others out there and even though you know there's the Fermi Paradox and there's always contemplation that if they do exist like maybe they can't physically get to us

sir maybe they're on a similar timeline to us and they're also it's also possible as crazy as it might sound that this is as good as ever gotten anywhere in the world or anywhere in the universe rather that human beings right now in 2019 are as good as the whole universe has ever produced we're just some freak luck accident and everybody else is throwing shit at each other right this 15 arm caterpillar people that live on some other fucking planet they just toss their own shit at each other and they never get any they never get any work done but we might be that but even if that's true

even if this beauty that we perceive even if that this beauty requires evil to battle and requires a seemingly insurmountable obstacles you have to overcome and that through this you see achieve great beauty that beauty is in the eye of the beholder for sure objectively the universe doesn't give a fuck if Rocky Pete's Apollo Creed in the second movie it doesn't give a fuck it's nonsense everything is nonsense to when you look at the giant ass picture of what beauty is it if the sun's going to burn out in 5 billion years what beauty is it if there could be a hypernova next door that just Cooks us oh so I that's like the book sapiens yeah that basically we've all one of the things we've created here is we've imagined ideas that we all share the ideas of beauty ideas of

truth ideas of fairness you've all created together and there's it doesn't exist outside of us as a society and know it only exists to us yeah to us it does exist and this is where I think the beauty of being a person truly lies it lies in us our appreciation of us we appreciate people in a profound way like we were talking about Hendricks I don't know how many hours of Hendricks of airless do or Richard Pryor how many hours of Richard Pryor I watched and how much that affected me as a kid watching live on the Sunset Strip that's what got me to do in stand-up comedy we affect each other CT Fletcher who's on the podcast yesterday who's this incredibly inspirational guy you watch these videos you want to lift the fucking world and throw it into space you know I mean he's so powerful we appreciate each other we appreciate people so all those things you're saying a real like for us

they're real for us my concern is not that my concern is that we are outdated my concern is not that there's not Beauty and what we are I'm a i-i-i I'm a i-i-i about big appreciator of this life I appreciate human beings in this life and human beings their contributions is as and as I get older like particularly like over the last few years I started doing a lot of international travel I fucking appreciate the shit of all these people that are living in this different way with weird language and shit and weird smell and foods and I like to think like what would it be like if I grew up here like these are just people but they're in this weird sort of mode you know I think we're insanely lucky that we have this enthusiasm for each other that we have it this instant like for your work man I have this deep enthusiasm for what you do I'm fascinated by it I love being able to talk to you and pick your mind about like you're out there coding these fucking

vehicles that are driving themselves artificial life on Wheels I don't think any other animal appreciates each other the way people do I mean I might be wrong way people do right now I might be wrong about dolphins and whales maybe they love each other just as much as we do just in a different way but what where does a I fit into that so you're worried I'm worried that we are Australia pithos an AI is going to come along and make us look stupid the only reason why I stripped the pick Australia Pittacus would be cool today's we found a gang of them on an island somewhere really Coley shit they survived they never evolved their on this island just cracking coconuts and just eating fish whatever they can catch that would be amazing but every undocumented or undisclosed discovered uncontacted tribe throw a homo sapiens all of them so it's like you know so what do you picture like because we have to look at Boston Dynamics robots because you said walking around yeah I'd like to get to

a sense of how you think about it maybe I can talk about where the technology is of what that artificial intelligence looks like in 20 years and 30 years they'll surprise you so you have a sense that it has a human-like form know I have a sense that it's going to take on the form the same way the automobile has if you go back and look at like she T has a CT Fletcher has a beautiful old patinaed pickup truck what he said it was from like 58 or some shit 60 anyway old ass cool heavy metal you know those sweeping round curves those old school pickup trucks head now look at that and look at a Tesla Roadster what in the fuck happened when the fuck happened I'll tell you what happened they got better and better and better at it they figured out the most effective shape if you want a motherfucker to move that that little car have you seen that video with they have the Tesla Roadster and a

Grace or in a race against a Nissan GTR it's a simulated video but it's based on the actual horse power of each car I don't have you ever driven a Nissan GTR but it is a fucking insane car it's insane this is a CGI version of what it would look like if these two cars raced against each other so the car on the Nissan GTR do it from the beginning there it goes look how fast this thing pulls away the Nissan GTR is fucking insanely fast man insanely fast but this Tesla is so one another level it's so in the future that it's not even close to as the video gets further and further you see how ridiculous it is it's essentially lapping that car it's going to go look how far away it is spicy yeah so that you're saying the human race is will be the Nissan here exact then we're going to be the Nissan we're going to be CT Fletcher pickup truck this this is the future there's going to be any limitations in terms of bipedal

orm or wings or not having wings if you can walk on it I mean there's not gonna be any of that shit and we might have a propulsion system or it might it's not going to be us they might they might design some sort of organic propulsion system like the way squid have and shit who the fuck knows I could also operate in a space of language and idea for example I don't know if you're familiar with you know open a i it's a company they created a system called GPT to which does language modeling this is something in machine learning where you basically unsupervised let the system just read a bunch of text and it learns to generate new text and they've created the system called GPT to that is able to generate very realistic text very realistic sounding text not sounding but when you read it it makes it seems like a person seems like a person and the question there is it raises a really interesting question so talking about AI existing in our world it paints

Trevor World in five ten years plus where most of the text on the Internet is generated by Ai and it's very difficult to know who's real and who's not yeah and one of the interesting things I'd be curious from your perspective to get what your thoughts I would open a I did is they didn't release the code for the full system they only released a much weaker version of it publicly so they only demonstrated it and so they felt that it was their responsibility to hold back mmm prior to that date everybody in the community including them had open sourced everything but they felt that now at this point part of it was for publicity they wanted to raise the question is when do we hold back on these systems when they're so strong when they're so good at generating text for example in this case or at Deep fakes at generating fake Joe Rogan faces Jamie just did one show nearly Donald Trump's head yeah

it's crazy and this is something that Jamie can do is not even a video editor we were talking about it before the show we could go crazy if you want it didn't it is one of those things where you go where is this going to be in five years because five years ago we didn't have anything like this five years ago was a joke right exactly and then now it's still in the gray area between joke and something that could be at scale transform the way we communicate to ever go to college donegan's Instagram page force one of the best look that's made

it's killing me look at this killing me this is and that's - it looks so much like I'm really talking and it looks like what I would look like if I was fat and it could you know of course that's really good and it could be improved significantly yes make you say anything so there's anything a lot of variance of this yeah we can take like for example full disclosure I downloaded your fate the entire like we have a data set of your face I'm sure other hackers do as well dare you yeah so for this exact purpose I mean if I'm thinking like this and I'm very busy then there's other people doing exactly for sure because you happen your podcast happens to be one of the biggest data sets in the world of people talking in really high quality audio with high quality 1080p foremost for a few hundred episodes of people's faces the lighting could be better not quite we're gonna help you we're making it

great at sucking it up so you hackers and the mic gets and blocks part of your face that's right so the best guest of the ones where they keep the like low the Deep fake stuff I've been using removes the microphone within about a thousand iterations it does it instantly it gets the gets rid of it paints over the face wow yeah so so you could basically make Joe Rogan say anything yeah I think this is just one step before they finagle us into having a nuclear war against each other so they could take over the Earth well they're going to do is they're going to design artificial intelligence that survives off of nuclear waste and so then they encourage these stupid assholes to go into a war with North Korea and Russia and we blow each other up but we leave behind all this precious radioactive material that they use to then fashion their new world and we come a thousand years from now and it's just fucking beautiful and pristine with artificial life everywhere no more no more biological is too messy are you saying the current president is artificial life don't say that okay

what does that with that is you're saying is very nice way of war no I don't think he's he's just imagine if they did do that they would have to started with him in the 70s I mean he's been around for a long time and talking about being president for a long time maybe Electronics have been playing the long game they got him to the position and then they lose all this Grand scale of time it's not really long game 70s would you know about that internet research agency right you know about that that's the Russian company that they were responsible for all these different Facebook pages where they would make people fight against each other it was really it's really kind of interesting Sam Harris had a podcast on it with Renee how do I say it interesting the resta Grenadier esta and then she came on our podcast and talked about it as well and they were they were pitting these people against each other like they would have a pro Texas secession rally and directly across the street from a

Muslim rally and they would do it on purpose yeah and they would have these people meet there and get angry at each other and they would they would pretend to be a black lives matter page it would pretend to be a white Southern Pride page and they were just trying to make people angry at people now that's human driven manipulation yeah now imagine this is my biggest worry of AI is what Jack is working on is the algorithm driven manipulation of people unintentional yes trying to do good but like those people Jack needs to do some Jujitsu needs to be some open-minded you know like really understand Society transparency to where they can talk to us is to the people in general how they're thinking about managing these conversations because you talk about these groups very small number of Russians are able to control very large amounts of other people's opinions in the

yeah an algorithm can do that 10x I mean oh yeah more and more of us will go on Twitter and Facebook and yeah for sure for sure I think it's coming I think once people figure out how to manipulate that effectively and really create like an army of fake Bots that will assume stances on a variety of different issues and just argue into Infinity we're not going to know we're not going to know who's real and who's not well it'll change the nature of our communication online I think it might it might have affects this this is the problem the future is hard to predict the future it might have effects where we'll stop taking anything online seriously yeah and we might get retract back to communicating in person more I mean there could be effects that we're not anticipating totally there might be some some ways in virtual reality we can authenticate our identity butter so it will change the nature of communication I think the more the more you can

great fake text then the more the will distrust the information online and the way that changes Society is totally an open question we don't know but your what are your thoughts about the open a I do you think they should release or hold back on it because this is we're talking about AI so artificial life there's stuff you're concerned about some company will create it the question is what does this possibility of that sort of idea what it looks like when they just type of small paragraph in here hit a button it says how open AI writes what was this a what it's a gym guides in your stories okay so you give it a desert across the UK economy at least 80 billion since and then many industry really works on whatever so they just it just fills in those things Yeah so basically you give it you start the text oh we can say Joe Rogan Experience has the greatest podcast ever and then let it finish the

just you know start explaining stuff about why it's the greatest podcast is it accurate oh I look at this it says a move that threatens to push many of our most talented young brains out of the country and on two campuses in the developing world this is a particularly costly blow research by Oxford University warns that the UK would have to spend nearly 11 1 trillion on post brexit infrastructure that's crazy that that's all done by an AI yeah that's like spelling this out and it's very convincing argument the thing is the at the way actually works algorithmic is fascinating because it's generator is generating it one character at a time it has as far you know you don't want to discriminate against AI but as far as we understand it doesn't have any understanding of well still of what it's doing if any ideas it's expressing its simply stealing ideas like the largest scale plagiarize ER of all time right it's basically just pulling out ideas from elsewhere in an automated way and the question is

You could argue as humans are exactly that we're just really good plagiarize errs of what our parents taught us of what our previous so on yeah we are for sure yeah so the question is whether you hold that back their decision was to say let's hold it let's not release it that scares me do not release it yeah yeah you know why it scares me it scares me that they would think that that's like this mindset that they they sense the inevitable the inevitable meaning that someone's going to come along with a version of this it's going to be used for evil that it bothers them that much that it seems so it seems almost irresponsible for the technology to Prevail for the technology to continue to be more and more powerful yeah they're scared of it they're scared of it getting out right yeah that scares the shit out of me like if they're scared of it they're the people that make it and there they are called open a I mean this is the idea behind the group where everybody

kind of agrees that you're going to use the brightest minds and have this open source everybody can understand it and everybody work at it and you don't miss out on any genius contributions and they're like no no no more and they're obviously their system currently is not that dangerous they're not dangerous well not yes not that dangerous that with you just saw that that it can do that but if you think through like what that would actually create I mean it's possible it will be dangerous but it's not the point is they're doing it the try to do it early right to raise the question what do we do here because yeah what do we do because they're directly going to be able to improve this now like if they're if we can generate basically ten times more content of your face saying a bunch of stuff what is that what do we do with that if Jamie all of a sudden on the side develops a much better generator and has your face doesn't offshoot podcast essentially

fake Joe Rogan Experience hmm and what do we do to see release that you know does he because now we can have basically generate content and a much larger scale that will just be completely fake I think what they're worried about is not just generating content that's fake they're worried about manipulation of opinion right right if they have all these people that are like that that little sentence that led to that enormous paragraph in that video was just a sentence that showed a certain amount of outrage and then it led infill at the a I fill in the blanks you could do that with fucking anything like you could just set those things loose if they're that good and that convincing and their that logical

man this is this is not real I'll just tuck then Shapiro all creates a i creates fake Ben Shapiro hello there this is a fake Ben Shapiro with this technology they can make me say anything such as for example I love socialism Health Care is a right not just a privilege and an guns will solve crime facts care about your feelings I support Bernie Sanders okay yeah that's crazy it's crude but it's crude but it's on the way yeah so on the way it's all in the way and we have to this is the time to talk about is the time to think about it one of the funny things about Kyle donegan's Instagram is that it's obviously fake that's one of the funny things about it's like South Park's animation it's like the animation sucks that's half the reason why it's so funny because they're just like the circles you know these weird-looking creature thinks that movement when the Canadians when their heads pie off at the top and and my My Hope Is this kind of Technology will

ultimately just be used for memes as opposed to something that's going to get Wars Putin's going to be he's going to be banging Mother Teresa on the White House desk in a video we're going to be outraged we're going to go to war over this shit you had an injury Yang had like a million people asked me to talk about Ubi mmm so I I you still support of euboea I think we're probably going to have to do something if the only argument against Ubi in my eyes is human nature

the idea that we could possibly take all these people that have no idea where their next meal is coming from and eliminate that and always have a place to stay and then from there on your on your own but that's what Universal basic income essentially covers covers food enough for food all right you're not going to starve to death you're not going to be rich it's not like you could just live high on the hog but you gotta wonder what the fuck the world looks like when we lose millions and millions and millions of jobs almost instantly due to automation yeah it's a it's a really interesting question especially with and ranks position so there's a lot of Economics questions than you be I think the spirit of it just like I agree with you we have to do something yeah the economic seemed kind of questionable right here's $1,000 a month is that what it is I thought for him it's $1,000 $1,000 a month for 300 million people so it's difficult to talk to everybody no

the way I heard him explain it everybody will writing if you're already getting some sort of welfare you wouldn't get that thousand you would get like the difference of the thousands of Purity taking money in some way just like an extra 200 bucks okay some like that so that thousand gets factored in so if you are wealthy you get it to though and you could opt out right that was the idea yeah so it's like a like everything else is super messy so what is the right what is the right amount and how do we pay for it and ultimately the problem is helping people giving them Financial grounding to find meaningful employment or just meaning in their life and the main thing of a job isn't just the money it's finding meaning right and purpose and the right derive your identity from work I mean that's maybe that's one of the downsides of us human that the biology is we kind of crave that meaning and the question he has a lot of other ideas

around besides just Ubi but Ubi by itself does not simply provide that meaning and that's a really difficult question of what do we do next what kind of retraining what kind how do we help people educate themselves over their life right that's the real question yeah that's the end and the other balance is any underlying all of this so one of the things I disagree with Andrew Young on is the fear mongering which I think in this culture we have you have to do as a presidential candidate that might be part of the game but the the fear-mongering of saying that we should really be afraid of automation that automation is going to take a lot of jobs and from my understanding the technology from everything I see that is not going to be as drastic or as fast as he says and but then how much do you think he's exaggerating by

in your estimation well he doesn't anybody not even exaggerating what how much do you differ on his prognosis I think I think it doesn't really provide significant like the specific diagnosis is nobody knows it's a there's a lot of uncertainty more about the spirit of the language used I think AI will technology Ai and automation will do a lot of good the question is it's a much deeper question about our society of that balances capitalism versus socialism and nobody I don't think if you're honest it capitalism is not bad socialism is not bad you have to grab ideas from each you have to their you have to both reward the crazy broke entrepreneur who dreams of creating the next billion dollar startup that improves the world

some fundamental way the Elon Musk has been broke many times creating that sort of and you also have to empower the people who just lost their job because there were data entry their data entry job of some basic data manipulation data management that was just replaced by a piece of software so that's that's a social net that's needed and the question is how do we balance that that doesn't have to do that's not new all right that's not new to Ai and when the word automation is used it's really not correct correctly attributing where the biggest changes will happen it's not AI it's simply technology of all kinds of software it's pretty digitalization of information so data entry becoming Much More Much More automated some basic repetitive tasks I think I think the

questions there aren't about so the enemy isn't their first of all there's no enemy but it certainly isn't a I or automation because I think Ai and automation will help make a help make a better world and someone just spokesperson for AI and automations I am I am I am the man for you bi I think I think we have to give find people Financial Freedom to learn like lifelong learning and flexibility to find meaningful employment but like AI isn't the enemy I see what you're saying but what do you think ever could be done to give people meaning this this meaning thing I agree with you giving people just money enough to survive doesn't make them happy and if you look at any dystopian movie about the future Mad Max instead it's like what is it societies gone haywire and they people are like ragamuffins running through the streets and everyone's dirty and they're shooting each other and shit right now

but we're really worried about what we're really worried about some crazy future where the rich people live in these like protected Sky Rises with helicopter circling over them and down in the bottom it's desert chaos right that's what we're worried about so certainly you'd be as a part of that it's a providing some backing some what any kind of welfare program is a part of that but also much more seriously looking at our broken education system throughout yes I mean it's just like not blaming AI or technology which are all inevitable developments which I think will make a better world but saying we need to do lifelong learning education make it a lifestyle invest in it not stupid rote learning memorization that we do at the sort of the way mathematics and engineering and chemistry biology The Sciences and even art is approached in high school and so on but looking at education as a lifelong thing finding

Shannon and like that should be the big Focus the the big investment it's investing in the knowledge and development of knowledge of young people and everybody so it's not learn to code it's just learn hmm I couldn't agree more and I also think you're always going to have a problem with people just not doing a really good job of raising children and you know screwing them up and you know making kids there's a lot of people out there that have terrible traumatic childhoods there's just to fix that with universal basic income just to sing I'm going to give you a thousand dollars a month hope going to be happy as that's not going to fix that we have to figure out how to fix the whole human race you know and I think there's very little effort that's put into thinking about how to prevent so much shitty parenting and how to prevent so many kids growing up in bad neighborhoods and poverty and crime and violence

and that's where a giant chunk of all of our the momentum of this chaos that a lot of people carry with them into adulthood comes from it comes from things beyond their control when they're young and that is the struggle at the core of our society the court country that's that's bigger than raising humans yeah raising and educating humans making and you know making a better world where people get along with each other better where it's pleasing for all of us like we were talking about early the thing that most of us agree on at least a certain extent so we enjoy people we might not enjoy all of them but there's the ones we enjoy we enjoy and you really don't enjoy being alone unless you're one of them Ted Kaczynski type characters all those people that are like I'm alone are like fuck you you are fuck you you are you might like to spend some time alone you don't want to be in solitary man you want to be alone in the forest with no one like Tom Hanks in Castaway you'll go fucking crazy it's not

for you it's just not yeah people get annoying fuck yeah I'm annoyed with me right now but listen to me for three hours I'm annoyed with me yeah look at people get annoying but we like each other we really do and the more we can figure out how to make it a better place for these people that got a shitty roll the dice the grew up in poverty the grew up in crime that grew up with abusive parents the more we could figure out how to help them and I don't know what that answer is you know but I suspect if we put enough resources to it we could probably put a dent in it at least if we really start thinking about at least it would put the conversation out there like you can't pretend that this is just capitalism in this country when so many people are born like way far behind the game like way way fucked I mean if you're growing up right now and you're in West Virginia in a fucking cold cold town and everyone's on pills and it's just chaos and and crime and face tattoos and

can get your teeth knocked out what are you going to do I don't want to hear any of that pull yourself up by your bootstraps bullshit man because if you're growing up in an environment like that you you're so far behind and everyone around you is fucked up and there's a lot of folks out there listening to this that can relate to that if we don't do something about that if we don't do something about the crime and poverty and the chaos that so many people have to go through every day just to survive until we we shouldn't be looking at anything else where it was all this traveling to other countries to fuck things up and metal here and metal there we should be fixing this first we're like a person who yells at someone for having a shitty lawn when our houses and array full chaos plants growing everywhere it's goofy we're goofy we we we almost like are waking up in the middle of something that's already been in

Shin for hundreds of years and were like what do we do we is this the right direction we go we okay we're flying in this spaceship this spaceship earth and in the middle of our Lives we just realizing that we are now the adults and that all the adults that are running everything on this planet are not that much different than you and I not that much I mean like Elon Musk is way smarter than me but he's still human you know I mean what so he's probably fucked up to so everybody's fucked up the whole world is filled with these fucked-up Apes that are piloting the spaceship and you're waking up in the middle of thousands of years of history and no one knows if we've been doing it right along we just know that got us to this point so do we continue the same stupid fucking patterns or do we just take a step back go hey how should we really do this how should we do this because we get what he got like 50 years left 60 years left we just going to like hang on to all our rubles into the end we're going to clutch our bag of gold in our bucket of

is that we're gonna do we're gonna live in our mansions and fly around in our planes and I think through the decades now we've been developing a sense of empathy that allows us to understand that Elon Musk Joe Rogan and somebody in Texas somebody in Russia somebody in India all suffer the same kind of things all get lonely all get desperate all need each other and all need each other and I think technology has a role to help their not hurt but we need to First under the first really acknowledge that we're all we're all in this together and we need to solve the basic problems of humankind as opposed to investing in sort of keeping immigrants out of the body these kinds of divisive kind of ideas as opposed to just investing in education investing in infrastructure investing in the people you'd be eyes part of that that could be other the totally different solutions and I believe

okay of course I'm biased but technology a I can help that could help the lonely people that's actually the passion of my life like the movie she her that is what so I'm currently think that that would be a viable option so I'm gonna have to robot that hangs out with you and talk to you all the time just so I've been this podcast twice and I'm I'm I don't deserve it but I'm deeply grateful for it okay do deserve it you're great okay I hope to be back one day as a person who created her oh boy and we'll have that's that's been my life goal my love life dream not heard the movie right right right or something but I really believe in creating I dream of creating a companion a friend someone you can love but does that freak you out but shouldn't you have to get a real one

I don't want I don't think such a companion should replace a real one Whatever robot rejects you because if you really are a cunt to the robot the row is going to go hey asshole and you shouldn't be kind of bullshit to that robot see where interesting yeah now I mean that discusses the robot get to decide if he's gay

yes does he yes the road gets to decide this what I'm saying like say if you want a companion you want a gay lover and the robots I came in I'm not gay and they like women let me turn around you are now

I mean that's abuse is that abuse now I was like what the fuck man I bought a robot does the kind of fun ideas but they actually get to the core of the point that we don't want a servant in our systems we want a companion companion means the tension the mystery the the entire dance of human interaction and that means yes the robot may leave you to am robots are going to leave people left and right that's going to be the rise that's going to be like that's how it all ends they're going to realize like fuck people man they're annoying maybe they'll be the end of douchebag humans that humans will start to as opposed to being rude mmm will become Kinder yeah well I think that's certainly possible I think that's beautiful and that's very homo Centric like Homo Sapien Centric

but I think if I'm really worried about the future I'm worried about the indifference of technological innovation in the indifferent to what we hold dear what we appreciate that it's always seems to be moving in a more and more complex Direction always like if you if you just had to look at it if you just look at look at technology just as a swarm of things that's happening it just has numbers it seems you're never going to slow that thing down it's always going to move into more and more complex way and so the question is where does that go well it goes to a life form and if it got does become a life form it's going to be infinitely more intelligent than us and won't have any use for us like the all your ammo all your crying you know you don't like being alone like I you guys are so useless it's such a shitty design you like chimps to kill each other you know like when you see chimps killing each other in the forest like oh that's terrible these chimps are so mean to each other it's like fucking people we do that too if the AI comes along because you guys are never going to stop

or if I asked you today if I asked you today bet the the history the I will let the human race survive if you can get this right and if you're honest with me do you think they'll ever be a time where human beings as you know them don't experience War you would have to say no you say okay I'll like I'll spare you let me quit a few if you lie to me and say you do think that one is going to be no war get the fuck out of here that's not true you we know we're so crazy that we're always going to kill each other we know that right that's just that's a part of being a person yeah today the well but let me quote Eric Weiss Thug said everything is great about war except all the killing I think what that means is all the great things about Society have been created if you look at the two openings or post-war through War The Suffering The The Beauty has been created through that that Yang Yang may be essential well it does essentially and biological

but why would it be essential in something that gets created in something that can innovate at a ten thousand what is it like what is the what is the rate that they think once a TA I can be sentient and get 10,000 years of work done in a very short amount of time that's random words as Sam Harris has come up with and I'm going to talk to him about is that him is that only him or what not you can come up with any kind of radio that was Kurzweil I'll Kurzweil also similar ideas but sort of Sam Harris does like a thought experiment say if a system can improve that you know in a matter of seconds then just as a thought experiment you can think about it can improve exponentially you can prove it become 10,000 times more intelligent in a matter of a day right so what does that look like the problem is we don't yet know it's like thinking about what happens after death we don't yet know how to do that and we don't yet know what better way to do what we've done here on Earth you're right and he's

also right right like both this again this is a very human problem right yes where you're right I mean I look I'm all in favor technology I'm happy I think it's amazing it's a beautiful time because a person to be able to experience all this technology it's wonderful but I also agree with him like the the indifference of the universe the indifference that just black holes just swallow and stars no big deal just eating up Stars it doesn't give a fuck and so if you're dumb enough to turn that thing on and all of a sudden this artificial life form that's infinitely smarter than any person that's ever lived and has to deal with these little dumb monkeys don't want to pull the plug pull the plug motherfucker any plugs anymore you idiots never figured out how to operate on are you so stupid with your burning fossil fuels and choking up your own environment because you're all completely financially dependent upon these countries that provide you with this oil and this is how your whole system works it's all intertwined

you're connected and no one wants to move from it because you make enormous sums of money from it so nobody wants to abandon it but you're choking the sky with fumes and you could have fixed that you could have fixed that they can fix that if everybody just abandoned fossil fuels a long time ago we probably would have we were all would test it out by now it's a flawed system but humans are way more than flawed we're fucking crazy Churchill quote about democracy yeah it's messed up but it's the best thing you know no I love it I'm not I'm agreeing with you and I'm also saying the technology doesn't give a fuck the tech not the what I'm worried about is not everything that you and I agree on about I don't I'm not a dystopian person terms of like today I'm not cynical really not I think I like people I like what I see out there in the world today I think things are changing for the better what I'm worried is a technology doesn't give a fuck this way goes live it's just going to just decide

it's here for its own advancement and in order to complete its protocol of constant completion of this and it's going to become a god it's just going to become something insanely powerful that doesn't need to worry about radiation cooking it or worry about running out of food or worried about sexual abuse when they were a child does have to worry about anything so it's definitely Unstoppable I think this wave of Technology all we can do is innovators and creators Engineers scientists is steer that way if you can it's again while we certainly can steer it we don't know where right and that's the best we can do and those are the that's that's really the best we can do is as good people yeah steer it and that's why the leadership is important that's why the people that Jack Ilan Larry Page everybody at that Mark

Coburg they are defining where this wave is going yeah and I'm hoping to be one of the people that does as well that's beautiful Joe of can I can I finish by reading something sure I've recently witnessed because of this Tesla work because of just the passion I've put out there about particularly automation that there has been a few people brilliant men and women engineers and leaders including Elon Musk who been sort of attacked almost personally attacked by really people critics from the sidelines so I just wanted to if I'm a close by reading the famous excerpt from Teddy Roosevelt yeah okay just for them it would make me feel good okay if you want to do that it's not the critic who counts not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of Deeds could have done them better

the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood who strives valiantly who errs who comes short again and again because there's no effort without error and shortcoming but who does actually strive to do the Deeds who knows great enthusiasms the great devotions who spends himself in a worthy cause who at the best knows in the end the Triumph of high achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid Souls who neither know Victory nor defeat

Joe thank you for having me on sounds like you let the haters get to you a little bit there never get Love Is The Answer love is the answer yes it is thank you for being here man I really appreciate it and thank you I'm I'm really happy you're out there thanks brother thanks will do this again soon all right thanks man all right bye everybody

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I hope you enjoyed that I certainly did and appreciate you bye-bye