#1133 - Dennis McKenna

Jun 21, 2018

Dennis McKenna is an ethnopharmacologist, author, and brother to well-known psychedelics proponent Terence McKenna. His new book "Ethnopharmacologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs: 50 Years of Research (1967-2017)" is available here: http://www.synergeticpress.com/shop/ethnopharmacologic-search-psychoactive-drugs-50-years-research/

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The Joe Rogan Experience

hello Dennis hi Joe so tell me about this these those cards you gave me and with what this is all about okay well this is an interesting project this is about the RV heraclitus which is which was associated with The Institute for ecotechnics which is try to keep this close to your face okay there you go further associated with you know how do I explain it it was actually a theater company called the theater of all possibilities but the institute for ecotechnics was started in the early 70s and they built the ship the Chinese junk essentially with a ferroconcrete hole and my connection was they have Cruise Cruise the world essentially since 1973 looking into different

things relevant to Global ecology they've done sampling in the Antarctic can in 1981 they decided to go to the Amazon and I was doing my graduate work in the end the keto stuff that time so that was my connection with the Institute of ecotechnics and you know it at the time I thought these people are nuts I mean they were kind of nuts and they were very naive about what they were doing as far as doing estimates Chanukah work not that I wasn't naive about it at the time but I have a better handle on it to made in any way that was the original connection and the same group years after I hit more less you know kind of severed I didn't really sever my relationship but I kind of distance myself from them but then that same group went on in the 80s to build Biosphere 2 would you probably heard of it they had financing

Biosphere 2 door so they gone to a whole other level of ambition than and it'll Madness but and Biosphere 2 went off track for Taco Bell spiritual was the idea of building a terrestrial environment that was completely shut off from everything in that was self-sustaining and it was a huge complex it was a big a series of Domes really each Dome replicated some Earthly biome like the desert the rainforest the ocean and so on and the idea was that it was a it was a dry run for building a Mars colony you know at or some planetary colony in the idea was Mars and they put people into this environment for like 2 years at a time

just see if they could make it work if they could really have a balanced ecosystem know if it turned out it didn't work so well but they learned a great deal from this and they also got a lot of adverse publicity because I think the I think the science establishment in a way became kind of jealous and intellect these people they don't know anything about what they're doing they got six hundred million dollars to build this what the hell is a lot of good science came out of this and they're still going and the interesting thing is they have their fingers in many pies you know they have a gallery in a hotel in London called the October October Gallery I always stay there front of London they have a Publishing Company the synergetic Press paste in Santa Fe that's who published this book so it's kind of like 30 years later what goes around

Pharrell in the book is ethno pharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs and it's from its labeled from 1967 to 2017 right and the story behind this is just too but just to complete the heraclitus story continuously since 1973 and they are now renovated the ship because you know it needs it it needs a new hole and all that so they're trying to raise funds I'll be asleep for that but it's just a very interesting story about people that are passionate about the ecology about the Earth than about science don't know a whole lot about any of it but their passion drills and forward them and their passion particularly the founder a guy named John Allen who's now

I think you send sat isn't as a tease but he was the Visionary behind it without knowing a whole lot they just went ahead and did it should also in that Spirit you have to hand it to them and they have they've done incredible things over that. Of time and so it's a it's a great story and it's worth attention than that you know it's up to you I mean it's kinda it's up to you if you want to bring her on or somebody but it's it's it sounds fast really romantic and Alyssa science and in the true Spirit of Discovery you know what are they trying to buy a sampling looking up to you no global warming in both the Arctic and the Antarctic they the course in 81 they wanted to do ethnobotany in the Amazon

I may have schulte's on their board of directors and the director of the expedition was Wade Davis and that and I was doing my graduate work at that time and we knew they were coming so was a result of that I was able to join the Expedition and weighed in at the time he was selected by them as the chief science officer and when it is by the time I got there he was getting a little disillusioned with them

you know and I guess you could say the personal Dynamic was kind of strange and like if you read my book the Brotherhood of the screaming Abyss there's a couple of chapter there's a chapter of this but over time even waved changed his mind and I I now get the larger picture of what they were trying to do and you know it's it's it's a real story I mean these people didn't recognize boundaries that's the thing and they because they were Theodore people they actually understood which I didn't at the time that what they were doing their whole effort was really a performance you know on a global level they did all these things kind of realizing that this was the theatre of all possibilities and they had a theater in Austin Texas by that name so

I could it's a wild story sounds like a freaky crew it's a freaky crew and then that was the point well some of the people that were on that 1981 Expedition or now and they're still associated with it so it's have some longevity other surpassed on others of left in you notice Custer or they feel they have enough but I was able to reconnect with people that run you know they have this Ranch in Santa Fe called the synergia ranch and one of the things that space there is this press the synergetic Press so when I was doing this project with the book I was casting around for who's going to publish this after we do it and they stepped up and they publish a lot of psychedelic stuff they have a book called The Mystic chemist about Albert Hoffman they republished of the Ayahuasca reader which originally Eduardo Luna and Steven White had published well

the expanded that they probably status of very beautiful you know redo essentially a second edition very nice work then. Who's not that well known but he's written several books about the history of psychedelics in the people involved and he wrote a book that they published called changing our mind ironic about the same time Michael Pollan brought his book out so Michael Pollan being who he is got all the attention. Very little still a good book you know so they're good people I've decided that some of my

initial judgments not knowing the people in when I disorder walked into their reality in Iquitos when I got there which they never bothered to explain if it's like you know they never said oh well you know we're acting funny cuz we do things differently than do you know and I was like well I'm sure they evolve to think they having a lot through this Biosphere 2 you know project which was surreal lesson to everybody but anyways so because they still existed and really because of the of the resurrection of the Ayahuasca reader that had been my recent contact with them so when I decided to do this book I thought they were good candidate to publish this book and make they totally got it they took it on they've done an amazing job and this book

or these this set as you know you know the Genesis of it because you had a lot to do with it when we were when I was here last year you know I'm the backstory is 1967 the US government the National Institute of Mental Health of all people put together a conference in San Francisco in 67 called the ethnic pharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs and nobody noticed it was a private conference it was not open to the public the only thing the public ever got out of it was the Symposium proceedings which is the first book there and I was very heavily influenced by that book because somehow or other and came into my hands at the age 17 you know bored teenager living in Paonia Colorado wishing that I was with my brother in Berkeley where all the action was at the time and I'm not

what is the spark she had also I totally I devoured it and about the same time I discovered the teachings of Don Juan which my my brother gave to me for my 18 birthday although much in there is probably fiction those 2 books gave me complimentary perspective the teachings of Don Juan was the ethnographic lens through which you could use look at the use of psychedelic some and which I you know what kind of field in those spaces then this book came out and it was like that I knew who schulte's was I do who a few of these people were at the time schulte's and shulgin and Andrew while we're actually on the original faculty and so when the book fell into my hands at 8:17 I was very excited and I read the whole thing and

and this is what really help me Focus my career it made me aware that maybe I could make a career out of Vestal pharmacology you know and I'm in my very naive 17 year old teenage brain I thought oh man I can get paid to get stoned to pursue that career and so this book has always loomed large in my sort of Pantheon originally there was supposed to be a follow-up conferences for this for the government to have every 10 years while the War on Drugs Scotch doll that they became embarrassed that they had anything to do with a conference like this what was the goal of the conference is the clear of the original class for people to kind of report on their work and sort of Mark the state-of-the-art in in Psycho

at the time so the first book was really wear things like the snuffs and Ayahuasca and you know any other things that we don't think of really a psychedelic like Cava and I'm a native miscarrying all of the one you're saying schnapps do you mean like some of the more psychedelics now so I really active form that but yeah for Rolla and then an addendum Sarah which is the what are they called yopo I think there was a big they stuck them up your nose at the dinner there that's the deal and this is the first book The 67 book was the first one where you know there was a collection of the leading Experts of the time most of them you've never heard of but there were there were iconic people like schulte's Andrew Weil shulgin another interesting fact

how many interesting people one of the most interesting in the first conference was a gentleman named Steven Zara a Hungarian chemist and psychiatrist and pharmacologist and he originally worked in Budapest and eventually he moved to the states and became pretty high up in the National Institutes of Health he was the director of the National Institute on drug abuse in the late 50s but the interesting thing is before that he was just a researcher in at a hospital in in Budapest he applied to Santo's to get LSD he wanted to do research with ls

they refused to give it to him because he was behind the Iron Curtain so he so he's synthesize DMT being a chemist and he had to determine if it was actually a psychedelic soul in the grand tradition he did that by self injecting himself you know so he's a true Pioneer and I invited him to the conference so he's the first person to definitively show that the empty was a psychedelic he's now 95 he's in great shape I invited him to the conference but he said well I'm 95 I don't go anywhere anymore but he submitted a very nice of video introduction to it and the other interesting thing that he did after the 67 conference he he he was thinking what's going on and we'll what is it with the hippies of all the Psychedelic soon and so his supervisor said will Steve why don't you go

go to Haight-Ashbury and hang out for a while so he did and he submitted a paper called The Scientist among the hippies and they wouldn't let him publish they sent you you can't publish this so it's sat in his drawer for 50 years when this book came along way since I have something I'll submit here I don't care if they you know it's it doesn't matter anymore so one of the papers in this second volume is his original 67 paper and then so the second volume in his kind of you know because the government didn't step up to the plate like they said they would there was no follow-up conferences and and I for a long time I wanted to do a follow-up conference I wanted to do it on the 30th Anniversary 97 never happened

time passes so 2017 was the 50th Anniversary it all fell together all I know you know I found a venue in the UK beautiful country house that was called tyringham Hall that was run by one of our friends who shares you know our perspective he made that available we put the word out we got support to produce the conference so we brought about 16 people you know to tyringham and England spent 3 days presenting and those videos are all up on the web I'll send you the link that's open access the other thing that we couldn't do in 67 that we did in in 2017 there was no Facebook live streaming will all our videos were Facebook live straight we have 60,000 people watching these lectures at some points you know I mean so that's a

you say that's incredible man that created excitement and then we basically paid for the book by pre-selling reselling it and a lot of people stepped up and ordered a lot of people are very patient because I was you know I was I thought oh this will be out by Christmas right won't know it's a big project that's so it took 6 months longer than I thought but now it's out there and hopefully it'll be up

a landmark in the field like the first one wasn't what we wanted to do to honor the first one was reprint the first one along the second one so that's why we did a high-resolution scam of the original book and reprinted that one and make you think like a man if Nixon wasn't present back then what could have been done what if they didn't have that sweeping 1970s psychedelic act where they made everything illegal like what if they continue with this stuff I can who knows where we would be today we can ask that question about a lot of things what if that didn't happen like that the Psychedelic research that's happening now that's it's taken 40 years to basically the Psychedelic research is is

a lot of the same thing was going back going on back in the even late 50s and 60s what's going on now is there repeating a lot of that but with more rigorous experimental design with with better controls and all that but it's the same stuff you know which is wonderful I mean I'm I'm all for it to see this work done I also have you know plenty to say about the limitations of that strictly clinical you know sort of medical approach I mean I think

you know organizations like maps of Hector have to work within the constraints of what's possible but I think in some ways they know they force themselves to their forced to put on blinders in a certain way to what else is possible no for example the way that Ayahuasca has been sort of marginalized and there is research going on about it but there's nothing to prove in the states and I think it's important to pursue that work but because you can't synthesize Ayahuasca like you can silicide been there MDMA or these things the vendor clinical trials it's much more difficult to study within the constraints of a phase one you know clinical trial but in fact Ayahuasca is touching I think far more lives than say

I can't say about mushrooms because mushrooms are a lot out there but you know the potential the impact that it's having on society as much greater cuz people are rediscovery

this and people are at reaching out for

the reaching out for anything that that will work you know as a society we are spiritually bereft and I think there is a pervasive sense of

Despair and a feeling of what would you call it spiritual impoverishment or something as we see that all of our institutions are becoming you know we're seeing behind the curtain and realizing that they're they're empty you know they don't really have anything to offer on the spiritual level especially religions people are rejecting religions as the sort of you know she'll game that it is empty promises that don't deliver and I think that's a lot of why people are reaching out for these plant medicines you know I am tired going to South America or to have Ayahuasca or finding them in their own Community because people crave spiritually meaningful experiences and an art culture needs it more than ever think about psychedelics that what you just said is so important that they deliver if you are

Optical about religion and you know there's some people that get alot of religion that's fine but if you're skeptical about it it's not going to fulfill your promises it's not it's not going to not going to give you anything that you can say oh my God this is irrefutable psychedelic experiences are pretty irrefutable that something's happening that's Titanic it's just right so immense and bizarre and Beyond the normal that it's hard to just dismiss it and the only people that really do dismiss it the people that haven't experienced it exactly exactly you don't serve the antidote to face you know you don't need Faith to take a psychedelic what you need discouraged you know religions offer Faith which is basically saying here's a list of things that you need to believe without question and if that's your inclination fine but most of us are more skeptical we need something you know tangible

something more tangible so you know I think faith is you know I mean that's how religions entice you to believe but I think that in a way of deceptive why do you have to believe when you can

in that intensely personal encounter between you and a plant teacher or you and I plant my life and I and a molecule you can experience for yourself you don't need Faith you can say I know that this exists and the the Realms that it opens up for you are real because I've experienced it and you know I think face I think the two we in a way and don't at least the abrahamic religions Christianity and Judaism and Islam to a certain extent have poison the Western mind you know and and encouraged our separation from nature and basically propagated this idea that we're separated from nature and we own it and we we have every right to dominate it and we're seeing the consequences of that you know we have to ReDiscover this indigenous perspective that we are part of nature

where properly properly frame we should be symbiotic with nature it's all about symbiosis it's all about collaborating with the global community of species to Advanced Consciousness not just of our species but of the whole community of sentient species this is what the psychedelics can do and I think this is what the psychedelics are desperately reaching out to our species and anybody who watches my podcaster listens to me is this is my rap wake up you monkeys in this place it's not simple your Wrecking this place and that's because you have to really understand your relationship to Nature realize that number one you monkeys aren't running things the plants are running things basically cuz they're sustaining life on Earth other things are you know that's part of it and then once you

wake up to the fact that you don't weird we're in a participatory collaborative roll with the community of species then we have to change a whole lot of things that we're not doing right now because we're certainly not you know developing sustainable ways to live on a global scale and and we're seeing the consequences of this now what's this name besides the fact that it's happening is that there is so much denial so much refusal to recognize this on the part of the people that supposedly are are running the show you know and they're they're willfully ignorant and and this is a problem so you know

I think a lot of people will agree with me a lot of people to listen to this show will agree with me when I say I I pretty much given up on politics politics seems to me irrevocably broken many other institutions are dysfunctional if not broken I mean science is corrupted government is corrupt corporate corporatism is you know these are all flawed systems because they're not

they don't have a base of compassion and recognition of the interrelatedness of all things and and psychedelics are a catalyst for waking up and so once people have that experience then their perspective is changed and if they're influential

they can go out and make change on a global scale

I think it's so important in Michael Palm put out that book because the guy who's a mainstream straight-laced guy who's written about architecture and Agriculture and all these different things or people like really respect his opinions in this world this guy has not just written this book but has also gone out in a limb and had a bunch of different type of dog experience is in control settings right and talks about them and the profound impact it had on his at one point skeptical mind he was very skeptical about what what these things were so I love Michael Pollan I have for a long time I'm sorry okay I don't want any angry for a long time and I'm really delighted that he's come out and written about this there are some things about his book I have to say that talk I'm a little disappointed but then I also have to say I'm only about a little over halfway through it

so far he hasn't really emphasized or said much about the he sort of Rights it from the perspective that all of this started with the discovery of LSD in 1943 and then that was the Psychedelic Arrow their conditions Traditions thousands of years old you should have talked to you has really talked about those things he did not actually it's also extremely jealous and angry and upset that he didn't know what the hell am I playing at the bushes for 60 years now seriously I'm not sure why he did that if that was a conscious decision but I'm kind of disappointed cuz I think I have a perspective that let you know I have some things to say yeah that's so far haven't been said in this book and end things that Michael Pollan would would completely relate to

you know he's the one that brought up the idea that you know with respect to like plant domestication and our relationship with our food plants and we think we're growing were cultivating actually plants are cultivating us you know this is plants program for world domination run the same is true of all these teacher plants this is why they're out there you know on the global stage now and he didn't maybe he will get to it I mean I'm

only mildly jealous I wish you would talk to me on the other hand what he has written is going to be important it's going to be influential I mean this will be influential to a small number of people Palin's book is going to bring it to the attention of millions of people view this whole subject I think when you when you look at when you're talking about ancient cultures and the use of psychedelics going back thousands and thousands of years and then this dip somewhere around 1970 where it almost seems to have gotten down to a very low hum but now the drums are beating again and now it's coming by now it's coming back yeah I'm really fascinated excited about that cuz I think this is me too I don't think it's the answer to everything but I think it's the glue

I think it's there's a there's a thing about the Psychedelic experience that forces you to recognize that you have these pre-established ideas of what things are and that you kind of put them in these boxes and you've sort of pushed it away and you like while I have to find what a city is I'm just going to put that over there now I know what that is I'm not going to think that about that anymore I would have rode is I've Define me a member after one of my first DMT experiences just sitting around looking at Rhodes differently like I was I was on a row just like this is the craziest shit ever wait we've decided that it's normal to lay this hard surface down on the ground so we can roll these

fire breathing system was before that it was but after that it became this weird symptoms of what we're doing by correcting these massive structures and cities in that you know we need this this in this ground in order to press to use these vehicles on and butt in the in the process of doing that would sort of marred the landscape with it everywhere yeah well psychedelics do give us the the chance to rethink a lot of things you know I think we've talked before about Simon Cowell's work he wrote about he writes about Scylla syban solasiban solution and that was his first book and I think his latest is the magic mushroom Explorer but something is work really struck me which is he pointed out that you have to look that psychedelics and some cents are there scientific

they give you an opportunity to look at phenomenon in a way that you've never looked at them before because they have this because they take you out of your reference frame you know or they bring the background forward or there's different ways to describe it and Paul and actually describes a well when he talks about this disruption of the default mode Network it enables you to see patterns in nature that you're programmed not to see you know a lot of what our brain does this whole reducing valve idea is it filters many things out it let's see in just enough of the external world that you can relate it to Prior experiences what you think you know and you construct this artificial model of reality and that's that that's what you inhabit and I've said this many times may be worse than following may be better but I talked about how you know we're living in a hallucination essentially that's constructed by Arbor

and in order to just deal with all the information that is available it has to really restricted it has to put a choke on it so that what does get in can make sense that's fine for ordinary Consciousness but you are prone to overlook things about reality that are important

and psychedelics temporarily give you an opportunity to lower those lower those mechanisms that default Network or sometimes called Daryl gating if you're in a safe place where you don't have to worry about your your safety you know there is no saber tooth tiger going to come get you you know and and so you don't have to worry about your safety then you can just relax into it and you can appreciate things that are always there it's not that they're not there these are not things you imagine they're just things that you never notice cuz your program not to so tremendous learning tools and many many scientists have said you know their insights of come from their psychedelic experience from Steve Jobs to Creek to Kary Mullis some of these folks admitted and others deny it but it's true you know so there many many things we can learn from psychedelics that's only one of them

from a scientific perspective that's an important one

you know one of the things I want to do is create a system a situation where you can bring specialist together in different disappearing in a discipline say mathematics or quantum physics or astronomy or you know even whatever art and have these Collective sessions together and then let people share their inside essentially creative solve a problem solving or creative sessions some the it out and that's that's that's the other thing I think we're looking for and we need to develop a context in which these things can happen

and that's one of the you know that's one of the restrictions of of the strictly clinical approach that I chafe against you know because they have to be

you know you have to have a problem it has to be to treat something depression or PTSD or whatever but we really need to use the you know that's not the only thing psychedelics are good for sure they can help people with mental problems and in the our society who doesn't have mental problems you know as a society where wounded but it goes beyond that they are learning tools and teaching tools and you know what you you you begin to see some of this in the in the work that role in Griffith is doing you know he's been able to get approval for people to take psilocybin for Spiritual Development which is not exactly an illness for actual spiritual Insight so that's a start route to do this he's approved to do it and approve this and how is it the FDA wow he's he's got a clinical study going on right now where he's recruiting

Chase professionals people who are pastors priests rabbis imams other types of religious professionals and putting them through his protocol and that's having a tremendous impact on the way they view their profession on the way they be religion and that's fantastic yeah it really is a shame that we we need an illness to treat now for you allow someone to have this potentially mind-expanding experience but it's it's almost like not allowing people take vitamins unless they really sick like Bob Jesse says very eloquently we need to find context in which we can use psychedelics for the betterment of the well you know for the Improvement of them well and you can't do it right now under the current regulatory restrictions now I think it's improve I think it gradually will improve

but this sort of ties into getting what I'm trying to do now that I've got this book off my plate so I mean this is kind of a

kind of in a bucket list item something I've wanted to do for a long time and now it's done now I have to help help sell it but that won't be too much of a problem I think it's a beautiful book so just leave after our show it'll probably do it we only published a thousand copies of how it's gone it's a collector's edition and that was on purpose we can always print more but it really is beautifully done yeah it is it is a beautiful book on every level and and the people that contributed to this to the second volume I didn't want all the same people that come to always come to these conferences and always say the same things so some of the people in there or not that well-known you know but they're not they were known to me and I felt it they had important things to say so you know some of them are known within the community and and others are pretty obscure but that you don't there's always

get all this this like you know this passionate amateur type person who maybe they don't have credentials but they have credible knowledge up in their head and they're they're completely obsessed with this stuff and there's a few of those people in there too so it's really really really it was really satisfying to be able to do it and make it worth people's people's you know time I was able to pay for well me and my supporters lot of it came through the Institute of ecotechnics actually that turned out to be a good non-profit Channel through which we could get donations grants essentially we didn't want it to go through hefter because it might look like a conflict of interest silly notion but but you know because of that we were able to pull this off we produce the book we even gave everybody a modest honorarium so that's the way,

supposed to be but what's happening for me now and actually predates this and has been for a long time is you know I've been doing a lot of work in Peru for really I've been hosting Retreats for Ayahuasca since about 2012 and that's been very gratifying work I've seen

transformations in people I see what a difference it makes to create the right environment and get people able to come and in a safe place and my whole approach and and the people I work with there are whole approaches we're not here to tell you what's supposed to happen we're here to create an Optimum condition and you work it out this is a this is a dialogue between you and the plant teacher you know it's not the shaman the shamans if it's a good music good Shaman facilitates that process but does not try to control at these there for support he or she is there for support what really happens he is the interaction between the medicines are the real teachers and we're here to facilitate that and also to tell people if they need help

integrating it or figuring it out that's fine but that's different than saying well this means that and you're supposed to think this about it you're supposed to think about whatever you want you know you're supposed to learn to use your own mind to think for yourself so the extension of this is that I'm in the process of I guess manifesting this idea and what I'm what I'm working on now and I want to create an academy in the sacred Valley which is an Academy of Natural philosophy and and so I have a name for it because a lot of people have told me that you know your name has got to be in in this

and I'm a kind of a selfie facing guy but I recognize that I have a certain iconic recognition so okay if that's what it takes I'll do it so what they call it is the McKenna Academy for natural philosophy and you're saying you have a physical structure we will have a physical structure and maybe more than one but we have identifying an initial place that will be the physical location for a tenant it's a kind of school it's kind of it it is in fact the first psychedelic University if you will since elusys was sacked and burned by the Goths in 39068 D it's the first psychedelic University in the western tradition since then so you're going to have the structure courses you're going to have degrees all of that we're going to have horses we're going to have it's going to be much more than a retreat

better we're going to have Retreats we're going to have therapeutic programs for people to get treatment and and programs for people to going to learn to use psychedelics for therapist to learn to use them but that is not the whole program the idea that we're going to have conferences Global impact conferences along the model of this this is this conference was what made me realize this is possible we're going to have him pack for conferences that will really have a global reach and through

you know webinars what through the web we can see share this with thousands of people and it will be a place it will be a place for you know the second part of the of the tile is so it's the Mechanic Academy of Natural philosophy what's natural philosophy natural philosophy is what science used to be called before it became corrupted before it became preoccupied with quantitation before it became reductionist all of the things that have constricted the scope of science this is going to be a more open thing that doesn't depend on corporate funding and that sort of thing where

first of all we recognize that scientific knowledge is valuable and we Embrace that but we also recognize that it has inherent limitations just by the nature of the Beast Steakhouse Hampton Heron Timothy limitations on certain things are difficult to you know to investigate within that rigid framework but there were just mean they're not worthy of Investigation you know experiences very difficult to investigate many other things paranormal you know all of these things that people you know stigmatizes as wound crazy

we're not going to the ideas to bring rigor to these things to say yes there are a lot of phenomena that we don't understand it wouldn't have normal phenomenon fascinates you will you name a time in UFOs is a good example you know nobody really knows what's going on with UFOs all we know is that the people have these experiences and what are they what are those experiences are they extraterrestrial encounters we don't know a lot of them don't really fit that mold are they hallucinations are Altered States or is there really something

you know in the Continuum that we get on with it only manifests under certain circumstances and any idea is that

it'll science

especially in this era tends to transform itself into dogma and then it becomes dismissive of aspects of the world that are worthy of studying but they don't fit into the scientific pattern and so we just missed them I mean a good example of this is grab Hancock's work for example that he talks about in many other people mainstream Archaeology is not open to this idea that becoming more open to it by force. 802 because it's taking him to you know knocking on the door is beating these people over the head practically the look at this evidence it's very nice though to see him finally get it it is really appreciate this far from over but he's definitely gaining ground now with it leaking water out of

Revolution this whole thing so Archaeology is a good a good example psychedelics or another good example is its opening up but four years after the initial excitement about psychedelics in the 50s and 60s the whole thing was suppressed for 40 years Michael Pollan talks about this what we're doing now is rediscovering you were a psychiatrist in training in the 80s or the 70s or the 80s you wanted to talk about psychedelics

that was the end of your career and you could not even bring this up you know and and who knows so it's one of these situations where it's kind of stunning what is it about the fact that in the sixties it probably was possible it was before was made completely illegal it was something to discuss any and this conference was performed by the government 1967 right and then the laws changed and laws about these sorts of things should never be made by politicians because they always have

you know a different agenda and they're not qualified to make these kinds of laws and their largely you know idiots or the ones that really control you no power they're not informed about psychedelic psychedelic swirl blankets prohibited all at once pretty much and it was the focus was all on LSD all these other things got swept up into this hysteria essentially this hysteria that psychedelics were going to change the youth than change society and you know what they were right they were absolutely right they were not stupid in that since you know it did bring out these changes

but now we're past that so Sciences again slowly opening up you know to the Psychedelic so I think that's a good thing I think people are appreciative of it now that we know that we have gone through that dip when it was outlawed in stigmatized and people were never talking about like you know just a few years ago I mean I want to say early 2000s you talk about mushrooms or any sort of psychedelic some people look at you like you're crazy well Joe I mean to Terrence of credit he was one who would continue to talk about it all through the seventies the 1890s I mean and I give him tremendous credit for that because he was dismissed and he was out there he was a Pioneer, but I think he really had a lot to do with keeping this conversation alive

that along with the fact that you know largely through our efforts back in the 70s but other people contributed like statement some other people but we publish this little pamphlet the silicide mushrooms magic Growers guide which put in the hands of you know every nerdy 10th grader essentially the tools to grow psilocybin mushrooms and that's how it got out to the world and our motivation when we did that it was partly mercenaries yeah we can go mushrooms make a lot of money when we grew mushrooms we made some money but the real motivation is we wanted people to be able to verify our own experiences the stuff that we experience at lunch where was like so nuts that we thought either we're completely deluded or there's something going on here so we needed affirmation from a wider community that hey there is really well

It's hard out here and we put it out and it's now you know mushrooms are probably I'd say for most people there the first psychedelic that they encounter and maybe LSD but chances are these days it's mushrooms with your brother was such a compelling speaker and tell Terrance was so interesting because is speech pattern was fascinating mean it was part of the thing goes the theater of his his speeches and lectures there was so interesting and he also was he was so obviously engrossed in the subject to the point where is very very attached to them it was the wrong deep connection and you know when you would hear him talk you like shit I got to go get some of the stuff he was a compelling speaker I mean I I don't I don't rise to that level sorry I've text and talk.

you know I can kind of Channel him but but I have stuff to say I don't say it as well as he does but we were so much on the same wavelength about this so I he was the bard of psychedelics throughout the 70s 80s and 90s and refuse to you know when no one else was talking about it he was talking about so I I give him a lot of credit for him to do that when you experience we did or he did he did it anyway yeah interesting

I recently you know I've talked about La chorrera probably far too much and I don't really like to talk about it too much because it's so hard to explain and with no one to discuss it you get off into these for the uninitiated of explaining but I gave her a lecture about breaking convention last year in the UK in in at the end of June they have Breakin convention another big psychedelic conference and my pile of my talk was so

the experiment at La chorrera psychotic break shamanic initiation or Alien Encounter? Were all the above or all of the above well that's the thing but my sort of the theme of this talk was if you look at the

what you might call it that the apology the typology of alien encounters there are certain patterns that come up again and again and if you took those off if you say you know for the experiment at La chorrera they're all present in a certain way are there has to be you know the typical Alien Encounter it's kind of an oxymoron what's typical about an Alien Encounter but there are certain characteristics and one of the characteristics is there has to be a calling there has to be a siren Call write something compelled you like in in the Spielberg movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind it was you know the Table Mountain Inn on some how old is Guy was compelled to go there well there was a siren Call Inn in our experience it was DMT you know and we were just students

you know what your parents was at Berkeley I was in the University of Colorado but we were both fascinated by DMT and we were compelled to go look for this orally active form of DMT cuckoo hey which when we finally got it turned out to be not very exciting but we took us to La chorrera that's why we went to lunch where was in quest of this thing which we called the secret when we got a lot to her what was really there were mushrooms everywhere in the pasture that quickly reorganized our priorities right and and it was though we were in the presence of this intelligence and it presented itself very much we called it the teacher and it was downloading all of this information to us and that was another characteristic of of alien encounters generic alien encounters usually involves the transfer of special information people are shown above

sure they're shown you know what something that is transmitted from the teacher to the recipient n we we got that in Spades we got that's encounter

and it had those characteristics and then another characteristic is there there is so information is given and gifts are given you know and the information that was transmitted resulted in a couple of things well the primary thing that that came out of that was Terrence is idea about the time about time whey from the itching the Genesis of that idea came out of the experiment at La chorrera and then over decades became refined and develop now whether there's any validity to it I'm not sure I've always been very skeptical about it and you know what it did failed its major test which is yeah the space-time Continuum did not collapse on December 21st 2012 as was predicted but they're interesting things about that about the time way if it's just an interesting thing

dithered

you don't in its own context as a strange mathematical construction that in many ways is a reflection of Terrence of psyche he was the only one that could really understand it and interpret it is a bunch of people listen to probably don't know what you're talking about. Time-wave zero time-wave zero right and we wrote The Invisible landscape in our first book for people have no idea what we're talking about explain what time waves are actually it was an algorithm based on the structure of the teaching the Oracle of 64 hexagrams and he treated it in such a way that he claimed it it describe the time had a structure and that this thing was that this this time wave describe the structure of time essentially and thus was a predictive tool among other things and that it took you know

was a way to look at the impression of novelty into the Continuum the idea that there really are new things under the sun new things happened that have never happened before ever in the history of the universe and this map was a way to predict the eruption of those things or the ingression of those things which is a better term insurance and I used to have you know I wouldn't call him arguments I called him heated discussions or enthusiastic discussions about how this happened I do not disagree with the principle that there is novelty I'm not sure the time wave really describes it adequately but it was it was an attempt to and whatever it was it was something that was a gift from this teacher at least the the Nugget of the idea right the other thing

the cat came back the other gift came back from La chorrera was nothing Supernatural or anything like that the gift was the spores of the mushroom we took the spores of the mushroom and we took them back with us and then over two or three years we figured out how to grow them and we shared that with the rest of the world and that was really the thing that that look at the impact that that's had on society you know em Terrence was fond of saying parents did say you know we are in a symbiotic relationship with something that has disguised itself as an alien invasion in order not to alarm so and that's what it was before you know it every nerdy 10:30 or 10 year old in basements across the the country you know we're growing mushrooms and an able to do it because the sea

what technique was very simple so it's all about what's Johnny doing down in the basement honey oh I don't know some science project something about growing mushrooms affect the alien invasion was a complete success and no one's even realized mushrooms came here perhaps on asteroids that it was a panspermia sort of situation I don't subscribe to that idea whose idea was that well Terence and the idea of panspermia I don't necessarily disagree with that I think that may well have happened you know that that life came from on an asteroid are the building blocks of the building blocks of it but mushrooms are such we know too much about the phylogeny of mushrooms we know where they fit into the

iLauncher name of life on Earth and you can't really make the case that they were extraterrestrial because there were mushrooms you know their mushrooms and their part of you know they have a position in the Well define phylogeny of fungi which are some of the most ancient organisms I mean some of the most earliest mackerel terrestrial organisms that were of a macro scale were fun shy I mean ever big fun Jive on on in terrestrial environments before there was much of anything else but they work silicide mushrooms printer won't let me have you been since this most recent theory that perhaps the ancestors of octopus might have somehow or another got in here from an asteroid that they're there is something about their unique ability to alter their RNA which is unique in the animal kingdom I have heard about that and I haven't

legit sources apparently right it's not many I haven't read far enough into that to to decide but anything looks like an alien they look like our idea of an alien yeah we probably look like aliens to octopus so you know

another interesting maybe if Christine Angela Miss was I

yeah I think it was 2015 I was invited to another private conference actually at tyringham and the subject of the conference was DMT entities and you don't want the answer to these you see on DMT are they real or not

tall order very difficult to really unpacked that for one thing what do you mean by real let's start there anything you experience is real you know so start there but the the talk that I presented was called it is DMT a messenger molecule from an extraterrestrial civilization that was the title of my talk and I actually in the course of preparing the talk I had to conclude the probably not you know because if you're going to be late that what you really have to talk about is the origin of tryptophan does tryptophan the amino acid which is found in everything it's one of the 20 that goes in the protein tryptophan is the precursor to all these psychedelic trip to me in sand and also including serotonin you know DMT is kind of the archetypal psychedelic

Phyllis Hyman Phyllis M5 methoxy before opening and even the beta Carboline so so if you

look back in phylogeny

you know a billion years a couple of billion years eventually you're talking about what they call the trip operon which is the cluster of jeans that give rise to tryptophan so we pretty soon you're not talking about is DMT extraterrestrial in Orange and you have to say Well it obviously it's it it came from tryptophan so how's the trip offer on a rise in phylogeny it was that extra terrestrial even though it's one of those ancient Gene clusters in in the evolution of life you can't really make the case that it's extra terrestrial cuz you could say well it came from rhodopsin actually the genes that the trip off operon originated from originally were the jeans that the same genes that code for adoption what's with the pigment in the eye that response to light so

I ended up I couldn't make the case that the MTS extraterrestrial and it is that up in something an interesting case like whether or not it's from another planet whatever it is it's it doesn't seem like it's hear the experience doesn't it doesn't seem like it's here right right but but then again where is here right you know eventually I defaulted to say it may not be an extraterrestrial messenger molecule but it is a messenger molecule and it is a distinctly terrestrial messenger molecule it is the messenger molecule that has been adopted by the community of species to talk to the monkeys you know her and try to you no talk to our Consciousness and maybe even 2 trigger Consciousness so you know DMT

is only two steps from tryptophan enzymatically in cellular metabolism tryptophan is universal not a living thing that we know of that does not contain tryptophan because it's one of the 20 that go into amino acids Two Steps From tryptophan decarboxylation and in methylation is all it takes to get DMT and that's like the Prototype old

tryptamine psychedelic and the enzymes that catalyze those steps they may not be Universal in organisms but they're pretty darn near Universal because they have all sorts of other cellular housekeeping functions you know decarboxylating amino acids is something that goes on in every cell

sticky methyl groups on nitrogen sis maybe less less common but still very common you know enzymes that will move you know methyl groups around and sell so you can make the case that and we know this DMT is extremely common in nature DMT is Nature's drenched in DMT you know from the animal level to the plant level to the fungal level you find these things everywhere you know how people say well there's about a hundred and fifty species of plants that contain DMT that's only because we've only looked at 150 species of plants you know if you look at these large General that are that are you don't famous known for having tryptamines like acacia's and Mimosas and these things we know of a few species that have DMT but there's hundreds of species thousands of species it's just a nobody

nobody's going to fund this work I think you can reasonably say that you don't care about 1,400 species of Acacia in the world probably 75% of them have DMT and actually I would go to the next I would I would even claim without evidence that's never stopped me before I think it's reasonable to suppose that because DMT is so close to mainstream metabolism probably all plants have DMT to some extent most don't have large large levels of what they don't have useful amounts of DMT but if you took with sufficient instruments if you just started randomly randomly sampling plan some analyzing for DMT what's up Matt Specht I'll bet it would turn up in almost everything but it's which is it phalaris grass is toxic to sheep because I'm BMT yep that's the one so the

DMT in it for whatever reason when it interacts with the Sheep's digestive system becomes poison eat well no not entirely I mean it's got phalaris grass has DMT it has five methoxy DMT other tryptamine said also have something called Grammy which is it's like DMT with only one carbon on the side chain Grammy in this more less toxic cramming shows up in a lot of grass species that's probably the thing that causes what's called phalaris taggers so if you just fed DMT synthesized to sheep it wouldn't be toxic

how to say did they produce male mean oxidase yeah so do leopards or Jaguars so when you see those Jaguars eating the leaves and then tripping the balls off rolling around their back what do you think is happening there

you seen those videos I've seen those videos were eating banisteriopsis right which is the source of the MAO inhibitors am I don't know what to make of that it certainly does seem like some kind of a catnip for them you know what causes an altered state for MAO inhibitors in in and of themselves they pretty some sort of a psychedelic experience of a cam not just from the MAO inhibitors show but they often have other effects that are psychoactive like harming for me this a good example you know we used to think that our meeting was basically it's the MAO inhibitor and I watch good and doesn't do a whole lot beyond that well it turns out now armenis getting a second look and it's interesting the guitar mean you know was discovered in again I'm horrible about

maybe 10 years before Ayahuasca was ever reported to science so hard mean is one of these hoary old alkaloids I like to call it you know it's been known forever and now we're just finding out it has all sorts of interesting pharmacology sits in its name MAO inhibitor for sure more importantly it appears that it stimulates neurogenesis and that's relevant to Alzheimer's and brain development and even down syndrome it is an inhibitor of this kinase this regulatory protein called dyrk1a which is got its fingers and lots of different cellular pies you could pollitt many different regulatory functions and harming is a very potent very selector inhibitor of this kind of days so that's relates to this it actually stimulates nerve growth in the hippocampus so you know where

and we're finding out that it is there a number of other receptors that it interacts with including serotonin dopamine Transporters even one called the Emagine saline receptors that are you know of undefined function so like most natural molecules it's not a one-trick pony you know harming has a number of effects do you know and that's why I taking Ayahuasca he is a different you know if that's why it's not a pure DMT experience cuz you got a whole mixture of alkaloids that are purple that are contributing to that effect who were the researchers that when they discovered harmine they didn't know it was made try to label it telepathy so they realized it was harming it right right well yeah that this is part of the

what you might call the that's sad and sordid history of the of Ayahuasca in a certain way because in the early days in the in the 20s when people are looking at it

a number of independent groups were working on it and they were identified they were isolated molecules they weren't aware of other people's work and so they miss name these things you know I mean I can't tell you exactly I think initially it was Lewis Lou wouldn't who discovered harmine and he called it been this story and then it turned out well another group years before Hyundai Slater the same molecule from the Ganem harmelin and telepathy in was one of these miss milford's you know that the came out the problem with this was that back in the day people didn't collect vouchers specimens so a lot of this chemical work was done without the benefit of herbarium specimens which now

every everybody that wants to do phytochemical work hopefully has the The Good Sam's to collect specimens of the original plan so that people can go back and look at that a lot of this early work was reported and there was no voucher specimens to document The Collection so a lot of it had to be dismissed you know they check the beta carbon chemistry of bastard opsys didn't really get well defined until some Chinese scientists or at least they have Chinese name worked on them and discovered harmine tetrahydroharmine on the harmeling as the main alkaloids they could reference that to Botanical voucher specimen so they really should get the credit for discovering it and then once that was done then it was known

you know other scientist had to acknowledge that why did they describe it as telepathy there was supposedly some sort of a story about some group telepathic experience romantic this was just some story you know out of the literature yeah I mean that mean it if it was rumored to be able to cause telepathy of what does wasn't Ayahuasca they were only taking hormonal it's not clear it's not clear. Clear yeah I mean they may have been take but they may have been taken out but whether they were giving telepathy I kind of doubt it when we know we could get telepathy on Ayahuasca it's not so uncommon it happens all the time people have group hallucinations group Visions has anybody ever bothered to independently like sequester people put them into like a different rooms have them do Ayahuasca and then have them describe a very

similar experience are almost identical experience to prove that these telepathy experiences exist or at least as far as I know that hasn't been love everybody wants to talk after I just see the dragon that seems like a worthy study cuz if I've heard from more than one person track my friend Kyle Kingsbury and his wife had an Ayahuasca experience with a both had a visualization of their child and then when they got back she was pregnant they want to have a child from their visualization from from from this experience obviously they're very close and they were together and they probably communicated quite a bit and I will always think I'll be really interesting experiment

it would be very interesting I mean and that sort of points out there is you know our realm of experience a realm of knowing that these things give access to that's normally close to a semi rimless kind of a trivial statement of course but then you get down two questions of how verifiable is that how real is that how you know mmm people get

I don't know if the term is hung up but they can get baffled when you start talking about

you don't the reality of say the entities you encounter up DMT I mean this is this is so some people I know are obsessed with trying to verify the reality of the entities that you find on DMT

and again it comes down to If you experience them their real experiences real cuz you've experienced it does it have a corresponding

existence in the external World well you know what sex Turtle what's internal you know we eat we throw around these terms these these epistemological metaphysical terms quite carelessly you know without really thinking about it what does it mean when you say I'm in here and you're out there you know and then you take a psychedelic and you realize that start official boundary you know we're all one there is no separation separate in normal Consciousness though it's separated in normal conscious but then what is normal conscious if not a reflection of your neural chemical brain State I mean everything you experience is an altered state because it's filtered into this brain process by the brain and you know the brain is a biochemical engine that has I say often we were made out of drugs and it seems that our normal Consciousness is the best state

propagate biological lights and to keep our whatever we've created in terms of our community structures and relationships and friendships and ability to build structures and houses and things like that these all these things are done best when you're here in present where is a psychedelic State I agree with you all the way I've always described it as if you had a meeting with God and you went and God gave you all the answers to the world and you you experienced undeniable Beauty in the most extreme form possible where you couldn't have imagined it and then you came back what do you loosen ated it or not it's the exact same experience exactly I can't put it on a scale right way it sounded like we've strips of tape measure around and God is 47 inches across like just because you know I'm saying just because you can't measure it with what we term are are metrics for real

quality right and that is exactly the thing don't worry about whether it's real in the way we would Define real is it good information or is it bad air is it not that's the thing it doesn't matter where it comes from it's such a relief it's good information then it has its own internal validity and whether it came from

some part of yourself that is normally obscure to you or a came from the plant teacher or the aliens transmitting it through it doesn't really matter but we we are obsessed with service reality yeah I was going for being fooled a lot right like the in this goes back to terrance's LA chorrera psychedelic experience where he had a UFO encounter easily dismissing amongst us would go on his trip his balls off on mushrooms of course I saw you I was was was there a leprechaun Drive in the UFO like all that's nonsense

easy to dismiss and in fact that is the nature of these phenomena that's what's really interesting easy to dismiss you knowing that that was another aspect of the experiment Elantra I left out when I was talking about my lecture but there's almost always an element of absurdity yeah these experiences and in paranormal experiences in UFO encounters it's like little green man are you kidding but there are little and little blue man. You should have on the show maybe you have already is Whitley Streeper no I haven't had them on but he's so out to lunch I'm I have massive reservations there's a video of him looking at a fly that flies clearly a fly in front of a camera and he's describing it as is a man in a suit like your son

wrong with them I miss that I miss that part I think what's interesting about Whitley and I agree I I totally dismissed it you know for a long time I thought he is really a nut case he's from the comedian books or people don't know exactly a series of books about being abducted and yeah but I sort of had to change my opinion somewhat because he and Jeffrey krypell who I do know is it traffic krypel is a professor of comparative religion and mythology at Rice University and his Focus initially is on it sort of on the

the superhero as as in contemporary psychology as a mythical figure in that sort of thing he and

I was invited to

I'll simple at in a workshop that Whitley was going to be at this was a couple years ago in Hawaii while I'm always interested in a free trip to Hawaii right so I said I'd like to come to this thing but this guy is a nutcase I'm not sure I want to appear on the same stage with this guy in one if it's me say that you know the guy was hosting it said well you know did you know that he and Jeffrey crackle wrote a book together and I said no I don't I said I know that he's not about case um that's interesting and then I found out about the book and I said I I told the guy if you invite Jeffrey and Whitley then I'll come and will participate the name of the book is Supernatural to word Supernatural a new vision of The Unexplained

and it's really very interesting the book is basically you don't alternating chapters Whitley tells us stories about what happened to it what has happened to it what continues to happen to him he lives in some kind of alternate reality I I take I get that I mean I don't know if I accept it but I get it and then in alternating chapters Jeffrey comes along and kind of unpacks this and explains where does this fit into sort of the the you know phenomenology of Mythology and you know reasonable explanations and it's a fascinating book if you just suspend disbelief for a minute and think about

assume that Whitley's is sincere I don't think he's lying and I think that these things really happened to him or he thinks they do and some of the most craziest thing you know the media has made like everything they dumb it down you know when they they put it into the box of alien encounters guys of nutball it on they dismiss it but if you take a closer look one thing to Whitley's credit is he doesn't claim to understand what's happening he doesn't call it an Alien Encounter he doesn't play me anything he just says this is happening I have no

freaking idea what is what this is so that's honest you know that's an honest scientific stance I do not understand this phenomenon so I give him credit for that and then he and and Jeffrey wrote this book there was a very interesting you know later on so I read all this later on in the book there's a chapter where they get to what is a possible physical explanation of what's going on here if there is a physical explanation and one of the headings I think the chapter 1 of the headings in the chapter was labeled the soul as a UFO

and that kind of blew my mind that got my attention because you know when I did this this workshop with them I was kind of bringing the flag of psychedelics right that was seen if you don't agree psychedelics you've only got part of the picture here and and they were talking about how the soul

how this could be some sort of a physical plasmoid type of thing they were invoking you know what scientific terminology I don't know if it was it was legitimate or not but just the idea of a soul of the UFO and I was able to respond to that and say well you know the experiment at La chorrera was essentially the blueprints of how to build one of these things that you're talking about you know which it was really this this transformation and so that was that impressed me I don't know what to make of it but I think I think there is and they don't really know nobody knows what to make of it but I think they're just on things going on

but that some people experience yes and and whether they are actual encounters or dream house or somewhere in between them I'm not sure but it would be sure it would be good I mean yeah I don't know when you meet Whitley have you ever met him know he is like the most rap person you can imagine I mean he's like an accountant or something worn out from tell all the stories could be putting us up but he was a fiction writer he was a fiction writer yeah and then he comes out with this incredible real world story Riley and obviously something off when you talk to him or you hear him and I've never talked to him personally but when you see him in interviews and conversation there's something off

what is that something off is it a psychotic break is it something that drifts in and out is it does he is he having problems with normal Consciousness I mean I don't I don't know what it is but I'm really not do you find that video of him talking about the fly did you find it thanks man in a spacesuit to lunch call the babe with the he's having a hard time with normal reality so which would make sense during the dream stay cuz all these things are happening at night right right right this is the big thing that I've always a big problem I've always had about the UFO abductions paris's first of all they all take place when someone is either at night it's either there on a dark Road where there's no one around and it's sleepy when they're at home and they're bad

the majority of them take place at night or while someone's lying in bed which is exactly when you're dreaming but wait there's there's a connection least implied connection between psychedelic chemicals that your brain produces endogenous lie that could be released during the dream state and a different levels with different humans me obviously some people have problems with producing serotonin and dopamine and then other people have no problems with it and it just right so it's not without considerate or it's not without possibility that there's someone who has a real issue with these chemicals just busting through my flooding there since there are we how we know their own people what time does this, but then does this contradict what we've already said about psychedelic experiences like why would we diminish his endogenous octave experience if that's what he's having

I mean it is entirely possible that you're dealing with someone who maybe perhaps does have some sort of psychotic breaks but also is experiencing psychedelic experience is due to some endogenous DMT dump or dump of whatever and all these things are taking place at the same time in the dream state during heavy REM sleep and he's coming back with his uniform stories of alien abduction Del no I agree it's it's so I mean it's hard to part it out, and I'm not saying I accept it all but I did this mess but maybe shouldn't there maybe it's something there we should approach it in the spirit of

here's a phenomenon right we don't understand it we shouldn't dismiss it there's something to be understood here not necessarily his understanding of it but something to be looked at. There and I thought this book was interesting for its balance you know I would not have Whitley strieber on your show without Jeffrey Michael Hakusho that was the thing cuz he it would be fun and maybe it's you know maybe it's a bridge too far I'm not I'm not I'm not well is there something to be got to the bottom ride that ride up the very bottom at all just one man's delusion or is there really something at the base of it and and this is the this is kind of the point that we were talking about

a while back in this conversation about natural philosophy natural philosophy

you know it has a wider scope for understanding and you can say what you mean the natural philosophy will accept every cockamamie we will idea that ever not properly I mean its natural place of a properly approached

should be a way to evaluate these things rigorously not abandon rigorous thought but not be so dismissive of it is to say it doesn't fit into our paratime it doesn't fit into what we think we know so we're not going to talk about right that's dishonest that's electoral dishonesty and we have too much of that so you know science is a very

timid kind of activity sometimes at because in its current in its current Incarnation it's so depend it it's corrupted assert where you can't just be the Curious monkey who's trying to apply

you don't clear thinking rigorous thought to understanding nature we don't have that luxury scientist don't have that luxury if they're practicing scientists you have to be getting cramps you have to play the science game and that's why you keep saying it's not that they have to guess that's part of it that they have to get grants and they have to be dishonest right I mean with themselves with what they know like the example of the archaeologist or the Psychedelic researchers back in the 80s if you wanted to kill your career tell your supervisor you wanted to work on psychedelics you were pretty much done or if you were an archeologist and you said but but but you don't look there's all this evidence for you know ancient civilizations like you want to be in this department kid you're out of here if you start talking about that so Sciences dakhma in a lot of ways not always but it's on for

that's that

you know in order to save people's careers in order to have a career in science you have to make the sacrifice you have to you have to keep to yourself things you know to be true you know that you can't really talk about because your colleagues will look askance at you and science is a very medieval institution in that respect it's a lot like religion yeah you know when you look at the DMT experience and you look at its effect on the human mind of the how much of you subscribe to the idea that we're looking at a some sort of a chemical Gateway

chemical gateway to what whatever it is to whatever that DMT experiences that this is something that your brain has the ability to travel to but I mean what would since we know that the body does produce this and we know that it's possible for people to I mean I've never done it but I know that people who do Kundalini Yoga have apparently reported trip like experiences that are very similar to a real DMT flash for the mind has its ability to do this on its own what do you think that that it is that something worth considering that this is the this is some sort of a pathway to a nearby Dimension or to something that's around us all the time but we just don't have access to with normal neurochemistry

because I know there's too many what after who knows you know there's so much and what you said where you have to go back in and unpack all of these things when we

got excited about DMT Terence some me in the early in the late 60s what lead is to go to lunch here or was that it seemed like a completely different order of magnitude than any of the other psychedelics and we came to a relief from a childhood that was steeped in science fiction so we carried with a theater with us the idea this really is another dimension and it may be a portal to another dimension and as science fiction nuts this we were totally okay with that and we thought maybe DMT was and maybe it is but or it's it it's somehow

pull the curtain back on something that's around us all the time that we don't see but again I'm thinking about these things is it something that is entirely within the brain that it originates or is it something that is it like a lens that in or our eyes are covered with with the with filters and DMT temporarily remove those filters I think it's hard to know I mean I think maybe experimental a we could we could begin to approach this have you you know and I I think we really know I think that's another thing about natural philosophy

that's important that science is overlooking and natural philosophy always remembers the limits of what is known you know and Sciences a bit arrogant about what they think is known you know they only in science only understands a small fraction of all there is to know and Ayahuasca another psychedeli always remind me of this you know when I take it remember the limitations of your knowledge or sometimes it's more or less kindly says it you don't know shit and it's true we don't know if you know and sizes can forget that you know but as far as this DMT thing

in all this is actually there was controversy about this because

you don't know a lot of people a lot of people who have worked in this area say it's it's pretty well established that endogenous DMT can produce these states that the need to secrete DMT under certain circumstances or under stress the lungs can produce large amounts of DMT that are translocated to the brain

but it's it's not so clear that that deals on I mean it's clear that it can be produced but David Nichols you know who knows a thing or two about pharmacology founder of a half Institute world's you know most authoritative when it comes to the chemistry in Pharmacology of of psychedelics he's the retard he's taking a reductionist argument on this that's kind of hard to to knock down which is that DMT is produced in. Janice late but it's chopped up so quickly that it never reaches the side of action and it never reaches the levels at the neuron that it would take to activate the neuron you know so consumed are you saying and dodging sleep reduce the amphitheater and Dasha slay you know that

flood the system and you get much higher levels that has ever produced endogenous Lee and I but we don't really measure the levels produced in dogs and sleep during especially these extreme states and that's part of the problem or part of the problem how do you do that have you done if you do that love you done come to leeny and try to recreate no I haven't either I haven't Terrence had that fantastic joke was on talk about that this mom could practice the city of levitation do you have this one and then add the Buddha came to town and he said for the last 20 years I practice the city of levitation that I can now walk on water and the blue said yeah but the fairies only a nickel

it's like the east or just smoke the entire row center of the universe but I think the last time I was on your show we talked about this this other thing that's on channel lights we discussed yes and I don't know if you interviewed it we have to buy you one I said we're good we've totally dropped the ball on that you don't have to buy now we do have to buy you one while by yourself while I'm going to buy myself one and you and this time we're going to do it we have your I know I've never bought the actual lightest interesting because

you don't I mean he claims and that was a conversation we had he claims yes this stimulates and Duchess synthesis of rain is down right now it's pretty much a J & A

ajna light

today's website is just a option of light.com

and there's some good PDFs on there that'll explain what this is about but anyway so this life can produce some sort of a psychedelic experience he claims that stimulates DMT synthesis in the pineal when you lie underneath it it's just a bunch of it so it looks like a floor lamp you know with a rectangular Mount bunch of LEDs underneath it witcha programs with an iPad in different patterns you lie under it and you it stimulates hypnagogic hallucination a lot like a fat guy looks like an old-school freak look at them he says he used to be an apple engineer he was real jobs right hand man when he went the right way he went the right way

Aurora time see what's happening to some things wrapped around her head that better not be a crystal I think that I'm run out of this room is prospective cohort going under this thing and the first time I lied on her and I thought I got all these colors I got all these hypnagogic effects nice patterns and all that like a sub threshold DMT experience and I said well you know the

the LEDs are all changing color right that's how I see this is no there white the colors are coming from you you're so fine the colors so okay so it was interesting and then we got into the conversation how do you know this is stimulating DMT how do you know that's the effect turns out it's not so easy to nail half down

you don't because the MTS or ephemeral in the system you can't take urine samples or cerebrospinal fluid or anything it would be gone by the time you you did it so the only way well maybe not the only way but one way you could do it as you could do something cold

it's essentially you couldn't do this to human cuz you couldn't you couldn't get a FDA approval for it but you can put a micro capillary tube right next to the pie nail that will absorb things as they are released and then you could recover that and say you know levels of DMT or Vicodin to a voluntary participant

voluntary or not you'd be well no not necessarily but you'd have a hard time getting permission there might be you could do it to a rat's though we could do it to her ass was Cottonwood research foundation's done right there done that that's how they discovered DMT in the pineal yeah yeah yeah that's how they discovered it that was the first right that was the first proof Nick cozy pharmacologists at the University of Wisconsin at Madison he was really the first one to show that DMT is in. So if they produce that it's a signal 1 Agonist as well as a serotonin Agonist which is another another receptor definitely thoughts but it's not clear what the function is its

it's a complicated issue you know to figure this out I'll send you a paper or the pickles Road early Tel Link it to a video where he discusses this and it's like you know he gave that at the breaking convention conference last summer that I was at that was like you know he was like the big Downer of the cost for a strike because everybody has this romantic idea and he comes along and just so you know it's like reality is good beautiful what guy did you do that made me think maybe think maybe there is something to it he's tried

Credo scene with an MAO inhibitor just just take that ass Terry offices tea without the ad make sure about 30 minutes before going under the light and then it's much more intense it's much more prologue you've done this I haven't done it but he claims that out of other people's to say that it is definitely enhance is there so that would indicate that the breakdown of DMT is being inhibited is he claiming that you could reach actual DNT States this device upon practice what about in the tank

seems design for the tank but how do you how do you put the light in the tank you just to spend it so sent suspended from the ceiling and put a switch on the wall yeah he climbin hit the switch lay down you could try it I'm going to try it you could try it that seems like the way down we get ahold of Crash from the float lab because crash was trying to put he's the the mad scientist behind the float lab which is the most advanced serum you saw that contraption that we have back there that is as state-of-the-art As It Gets In The World of Tanks and he had a concept for developing learning films films where you would lie down and in the absence of any physical input right or very minimal beat mean that you're floating in that environment to can suspend in LCD screen at the lowest possible light emission so you would not be able to see the edge of the screen you'll just be able to see the images on the screen and they would play instructional videos and things

you would learn them with the minimal amount of distractions and you think you could achieve his thought was you could achieve accelerated learning yeah like perhaps you can work on your golf swing or something like that or something something that you could get in there or maybe musical instruments that you be able to pick up Concepts and things with minimal distraction it's so great about you you would love it and it's really great for working out ideas it's like for one of the best environment in the world for working on a thought because there's no input you're not thinking about anything else you just in total silence total darkness very relaxing you're floating and you you know in the absence of the same put you your brain has more resources right is it similar to psychedelic experience yes yes you can try it because here I mean you got if you got some time is it is actually not today I have to go to another interview but but

I don't know is it kosher to ask you have you taken psychedelics and gone into this one's not leave all that would help illegal depends on who you're asking but what that the key is I think I did get a good bass lines of sobriety doing it doing it sober but my favorite is actually edible marijuana I think edible marijuana specially high doses especially in that complete darkness environment profound visuals like a really bizarre strange strange visuals and they they kind of dance for you in there it's really really wild I think it's the best environment ever for edible marijuana

well

Dennis it's a vocal version Tech forget the Advil would you do it where you living these days I am living in St Paul Minnesota still Minnesota right but I am moving to Canada I'm immigrating to Canada damn Donald Trump's I've got you down huh got me to participate in any more now that my wife has got her little five year pension she's able to retire so she's Canadian so she's my ticket out here nice and I am moving to British Columbia a part of the time I was teaching a step back from that for a couple of years ago cuz I just didn't have time and it was an adjunct professor position so the equation between the amount of work in the amount of compensation just

did make sense sorry while I mean I enjoyed it a lot but I I've lived in BC a lot I'm almost three-quarters diving you know I got my PhD at UBC my daughter's got dual citizenship and she's up there now and I love it up there going to mouth that mean there's no no reason why I wouldn't get it to you no pretty simple thing so that will happen next spring as soon as we can we got to wait for her house got to wait for the prime time to sell her house would like next February and also Minnesota Kristy time is the winter and the people start looking at the end of February so it's a hot time to it because it's a by it's a seller's market right now

around Vancouver we probably won't be able to afford to live in Vancouver the housing market is utterly nuts but somewhere close by White Rock Abbotsford have you looked at Vancouver Island and it's not that much less expensive there it's nice but it's logistically it's a problem yeah I kind of want to go anywhere you have to take a ferry that's why I'm looking forward to it all the all the work all the travel I do ya need to be close to the airport but I am excited that I'm in for one thing now you know my colleague Wade Davis is up there you know him he's the person that wrote One River he was produce a of Schultz he was a graduate student of schulte's he's one of the author one of the editors on this and very well known as an ethnobotanist and four years he was the Explorer in red

for the National Geographic he's the guy that worked out the zombie poison mystery back in the day you know in Haiti he's not guy but he's written a lot of excellent books and now he's Colombian Devil's Dust or whatever the hell that is so that's that's broke Manziel at stowaway no this is the song Big Medicine his Tetro talks

which is a toxin from puffer fish as well as other other Marine sources it's a tipped Roto toxin

it's a paralytic neurotoxin that out early paralyzes you for about 48 hours and but you're completely conscious you can hear everything you can't move a muscle and soul in the in the zombie contacts they would contrived to give you no give this to people if they want to put the whammy on them then they would bury the Jesus and if they were lucky they would and then they would assume that like 48 hours later and of course A lot of them did die but if they were alive then they would be somebody's they don't so give them a mixture of the Torah and other bad things that would destroy their memory and completely discombobulated them and then they would send them off and they would spend their life as you know for the wandering around completely

you know shells of their former self wow did the Torah has permanent effects like that it can if not after this traumatic experience you can imagine you know what so wait worked all that out his first book was called The Serpent of the rainbow all right that was made into a film terrible film he wrote he wrote many books has most memorable one is as that basically a biography of schulte's called to 1 River one river adventures in the Amazon or something like that he'd be a great guy that bring on your show that sounds awesome very articulate man and you know we worked actually this heraclitus Expedition I was telling you wait was on that expedition and I've gotten to know I might consider my good friend but he's now

he's an endowed professor of anthropology at the University of British Columbia which sounds real stuffy and it is but he's not a stuffy guy he's got wonderful Tales to tell you I can guarantee you that there's float tank centers in Vancouver aeroflow take me to I love you I didn't want to get into it it's great physically to just you feel very relaxed and get out of there my issue always Joe is I just never feel like I have time but I might as well change my attitude about that I realize that I need to take time out to care for my mind and body when I don't do enough of that you know yeah but I'm hoping that when I move up to BC waiting I can do some work together and maybe even teach you to work on this thing in South America get some horses going down there because with him

El as one of the faculty that will bring a lot of people I mean he's he's hot profile and really a good guy that's fantastic I said you have a timeline for this thing in Peru yeah well it's happening faster than I had dared to Hope actually I think I'm you know I hate I hate to predict and then not be able to you know but my guess is that a year from now we'll be on the way you know I mean it is all happy mrs. the formative year we know where we want to go we're talking to investors who are seriously interested they want to get involved and they have money and it's not just about money they also have you know they've listen to the medicine and it's all about the medicine

as we know changes people's hearts in mind so these folks they have the resources but they realize there is a larger vision and so you know mm for me personally what I want to do part of my problem is I'm running around the world all the time and I'm going to these conferences I'm propagating the message and I can't stop myself I have I have yes alcoholism and it takes it takes a lot out of me and it keeps me distracted so what I want to do if possible is pull my elbows in a little bit and say rather than go to your conference and frog or your conference and you know wherever

create this place and make that a place where people can come and have really rich experiences whether or not they involved psychedelics they can have Rich learning experience since I mean it's perfect location want to learn about the ink is Machu Picchu is right there it's all there and there's just an iPhone is like the idea of platform see you know I'm no I want to create a platform Health catalytic Nexus 4 Global Consciousness transformation that's the idea and do therapeutic programs Retreats impactful conferences like Michael Pollan level Graham Hancock level Joe Rogan level conferences if I could ever convince you to come down which may be will happen maybe we'll someday and and just use it as a as a platform

I kind of want you know I like the academic idea used to this place where we can try to understand ourselves on our play some nature better you know and and through plant medicines and clear thinking and creative people and just make it that and then I can be like

you know the I can be more and residents there and I don't have to keep running around the world I don't want to say I'm the girl in Resident because my first thing is I know girl I'm just I'm just a learner like everybody else Brian you know that we're all we're all just curious monkeys right yeah it seems to me that was psychedelics the interest and the desire far exceeds the access especially in this country there's so many people that really have no idea where to start I can't tell you how many people have asked me how do I get mushrooms for her it's just even amongst people that you would think would know someone who would have something but it's one of those it's one of those things where we're going to have to wait until things get more legal environment changes and it seems to be moving in that way I think it is John Hopkins doing research and there's all these different studies that are being made through maps and protect

pillar and various other organizations are trying to push this idea of especially in the beginning working with soldiers people with PTSD and showing these massive results and that open up people's minds that there's a bunch of different things MDMA being one of them so syban be another and then hopefully eventually we work our way to DMT well this is one of the attractions of of creativeness platform in the sacred Valley because the whole or in Peru because the whole regulatory framework is different you know Peru is declared Ayahuasca National patrimony and there's no restriction on the use of Ayahuasca and all these other plant medicines are part of the tradition you know San Pedro watch Uma you know the snaps will to Snuff all these things can be used without restriction now I don't know about the status of mushrooms but I think with a little bit of

parents see we could also get permission I mean you could probably use them at this place of nobody would say a word but if we wanted to we could get permission to use them and that's the idea is to not restricted to Ayahuasca be able to look at all of these medicines in a very intelligent way and also bring science and Shamanism together you work with smart shamans who also want to work with Charlotte with with clinicians to develop a really new paradigm that combines the best of both and Michael Pollan refers to this a little bit but he kind of glasses over it but I think that's where the

the therapeutic Revolution is going to come when you fuse Shamanism and and the clinical approach and you can do all that there and develop models that can be used other places and you don't have to be secretive about it you know you don't have to be ashamed or we're not doing anything illegal or Culvert and so again we can rather than being sort of you know what we can shout it from the rooftops an hour if we want to not that we missed ya there are also a lot of good there are a lot of smart people in Peru you know and smart doctors and so on Smart clinicians so we want to involve local communities local people as much as possible and and then expand that to all the other things that this relates to likes like sustainable agriculture and it's a

place to look at you know new paradigms for food production and so on the sacred Valley is one of the five areas in the world where I could culture originated in the most of our important food plants came from there originally they have 6,000 varieties of potatoes $4,000 I had his of tomatoes I mean only incredible food biodiversity and the foods that have gone Global how many varieties of potatoes do you see in the in the grocery store maybe 4-5 at most so there is an incredible genetic repository of these things that have never really been developed on a global scale and a lot of them that are part of the solution to the food crisis that we face

and also what the Incas knew about agriculture is it was pretty revolutionary so let you know the spectrum is Broad are you going to have a standardized ingredients list when it comes to like Ayahuasca I like in terms of like the dosage that's work that we wanted to yeah well not necessarily to impose it on other people but I think I think it could benefit from a bit of analytical work I'd like I'd like to do that I'm also interested in the

the sort of the pharmacopoeia of other plants that that are associated with Ayahuasca they're not put into Ayahuasca all the time but they're up there sometimes I use for the deetta's there's a whole pharmacopoeia plants not very well investigated that I'd like to look more deeply into and maybe even develop formulations of Ayahuasca with some of these other plants that could be used

for more specific therapeutic purposes so you might have one that's good for say PTSD in one that's better for depression and you know what you could actually Taylor these things bring a little science into it because you know and then you don't have to have

a lot you know you don't have to have gleaming Laboratories for this you can do it with a very simple set up a simple natural products laboratory most importantly is the people that you have in there not the equipment that you have and you could do a lot of stuff and partly this is what this book is about to the ethinyl pharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs you know

having a lot of what's in this book is is talking about the Ayahuasca and and peyote and things that we know about

but talking about it in ways that we've never looked at it before and then there is a whole bunch of things out there that really I mean there's a great future for discovery of things we've never heard of you know and that's what I feel pharmacology is about and specifically it's the ethyl pharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs so there's a lot still to be discovered Canada is just recently legalized marijuana as of today they have any plans or do you know of considering the legality of other substances as a matter fact they do there is there I can't really talk about it and actually I shouldn't talk about it cuz I don't have that much information but there is a gentleman who came to one of my Retreats I meet the most interesting people at these four traits you wouldn't believe this guy is

aspiring young politician Canadian politician from Ottawa he's talking to Justin about legalizing psychedelics for therapeutic uses some hits you know working with some some lawyers and someone and putting together a proposal to do this MDMA assisted Psychotherapy trials begin Final Phase in Vancouver well there you go but that's Maps right that's the Catalyst behind that he wants to change policy and the thing is the Canadians are reasonable people that's the big difference from America to see how you can propose this kind of thinking that they won't dismiss it out of hand Lolo you know what's your evidence why should we do this so Justin's a very young guy he's young imagine he's been beyond the chrysanthemum a timer to I do really sure I think so wow what makes you say that

speak about I guess this is the gas he's the right age

he well I can't say it's just pure speculation love let's put it this way I wouldn't be surprised people don't know or talk about beyond the chrysanthemum means there's this thing that you see when you break through when you do DMT this very bizarre geometric pattern it right for these MDMA trolls what's a lot more straightforward in Canada you know and now and they've done some clinical studies with Ayahuasca and they're they're on board with that they've done some some studies with the indigenous people in Canada that cold First Nations but they have they have done that and it's been pretty it's been straightforward to get that work done that would be my tablet's drunk hysteria that we had you know so I think it's it's good place to produce pursue this Reese

how many ways they were victims of our drug is Terry I'm they sort of adopted our right ideas right I'll be interested to see

our response to the legalization of cannabis that's going to piss them off of his ass off that little elf sessions trying to be pissed yeah he's such a fool that guy his statement good people don't smoke marijuana that is one of the dumbest fucking things anyone has ever said ever such a crazy thing to say like that is one of the dumbest generalizations you know that's like saying all white people are evil it's like it's just so stupid it's just stupid thing to say if the stupid thing to say this idea that we could go right across the border to Vancouver and experience you know the host of the Psychedelic experiences would be mean that would be fantastic and I do not usually I tempted you'll you'll see that very soon damn it would be amazing and I just hope it would have a positive effect on you know our country

she doesn't make any sense when you think about how many troops come back over from overseas with these traumatic experiences and PTSD and real issue psychologically in that the number one tool for handling this it's not it's not Psychotherapy the never one to of psychedelics it's like the best in terms of advocacy in terms of proven results there's nothing even remotely close MDMA or so syban or any of these psychedelic therapy they have profound effect when it comes to the ability to disconnect from addictive behaviors particularly drugs opiates there's nothing better than the Psychedelic experience this particular ibogaine and you know you got to go to Mexico to go to TT is ibogaine yeah and I think within 5 years you're going to see clinics and maybe even sent her so you know along the lines of what we're talking about you know doing in the sacred Valley I mean once you've done something like this

you can replicate it in different countries require where the regulatory environment was friendly so you can have you know we have the McKenna Academy in in Peru but then we have brand you know if they meet the standards that we couldn't centrally license out that brand or whatever and then you could potentially do one in Vancouver of course yeah that would be sensation hell dude I'll help I swear to God I'll go over there I love Vancouver I go there every chance I can well that's good so maybe I'll see you more often when you had abscess yeah for sure I still have to drag you to South America of all I know I'll get you I'll get you one of those too hard now I have young kids and I'm always busy and I travel too much as it is it's at It's a Grind to get me other kind of the answer to that what does that bring your wife and kids to Peru to Peru you know we can take care of the kids there's a catch of a family that

runs one of the center's than they would love to take care of your kids your wife can do y'all guys or whatever she wants to do I like how you say the wife could do yoga she's not going to trip to upgrade or did she get mad but it'll happen when the time is right now the positive benefits are so overwhelming in the evidence is so clear and so many people have these incredibly powerful experiences that they're real and other people and often times it's people that are there that like people to close mines maybe their loved ones I've had these experiences and maybe the loved ones were really far gone and have come back and they can see these results and recognize that especially when it comes to in my opinion veterans we have an overwhelming responsibility to take care of those people that we don't

we don't need it medically we don't meet at psychologically we don't meet up with therapy we just don't give them enough they don't we don't need it financially and this could be a way to heal them to help help them reconcile their experience and help them you know achieve balance back here you know Stateside that it's not just all kinds of people are sure yes in fact everybody is trauma Society I mean we are a wounded Society yes that's the thing I think you know I think they psychedelics her medicines for for the soul innocence and medicines for our species in certain Samsung mean that's why they're Global you know where a wounded society and where and it's dysfunctionality is now becoming a parent you know him through that political situations

tonight I am just baffled by you know a government a President Who basically likes to hurt people I mean that that seems to be at its this culture of cruel cruel tan yeah but it's been that has been created and particularly if he feels slighted and now he wants to come back at you extra hard yeah yeah it's a reflection of probably of his childhood trauma I mean I think his father was very abusive now he's it's his chance to get revenge you know when he's the kind of guy who what's up when you want to take him for a trip

is it all I don't think it would do any good really I don't think it would do any good why not cuz I don't think there's a moral I don't think there's a core there you know my I mean I would certainly I don't think it would help him for the work most with it said that told me the other two kinds of people I will not get Miah waska to one is sociopath son the other is skitzofrenix Trump is a sociopath you know he has no

interior he's never had a reflective moment in this life that's that's what concerns me it's all external and he's like pure it you know he is a six-year-old an angry six-year-old if we met him at 16 would you have hope for the future or do you mean when is a person Beyond reproach or beyond help like what it what is the year see what we have a psy.d in our minds that when a certain age is reach that a person is just friendly establish there's no more growth now you know you see someone is a 60 year old fool that's a dying full he's going to be a fool to his last day on this planet yeah why is that though why do we just assume that someone lives a certain life has a certain amount of time here that they're not going to learn is it just because of our own past experiences with these types of people or are we in posing a limitation on their growth like I'm very curious about that because we we do do that we have

someone fucks up in their 20 will they will get better they will know if they're going to evolve Haunter

when we make that assumption I know and it may not be true I mean not fair it's not fair I mean especially now what we're learning of the other thing that psychedelics do that is kind of a new thing that we're learning is neural plasticity yes it actually reorganizes Connections in the brain in Ocilla Simon does this and presumably the others the others do to some of the fender flare means do it so that's a new thing you know you can actually change the the conductivity of of these systems that's probably not fair to say I mean I mean my friend who came with me he he made a point when we were discussing this he says you know

you shouldn't hate Trump you know he's used to that you should love Trump at the end I said it's real hard for me to love true but I think the point that he's making is that he is Trump is not the cause of it and somebody he's that he's the symptom of what's happening and he's he's the disruptor but the disruption is happening anyway and I'm so in some ways maybe we should be grateful to Trump because he's he's making you know he's he's making it so it everybody's face that the people are questioning everything that's that's a good thing because the system it can't last too you know so there's going to be a transition that's going to be pretty rough and Trump is just part of that not in any conscious way he's as much the victim of the times as anybody else and expect to have the president

younger on the nuclear button and a few other inconvenience things otherwise he would just be dismissed you know is an old cranky old guy railing as a television for this I guess yeah I mean before this he was your fire do you know he was the the rich guy with his name on the big buildings right he was a caricature you know he wasn't it wasn't what he is now what he has now is he's show he's exploited this vulnerability in the political system that we essentially a popularity contest to choose our rulers and the idea of that and at first was to pick the best one based on public perception but that's not what it is anymore now it's like we are so jaded as to how well the system works in as to what significant important about it and we just want a guy to win now it's our guy and Hillary Hillary represented the bureaucrats she represented the red tape in the

career politician the one The Proven Liars the ones who are starting these Clinton foundation's and making hundreds of millions of dollars and giving you speeches and making hundreds of thousands dollars talking to Bankers but won't release any the transcripts and if we got to drain the swamp and this guy was our guy to drain the swamp the girl who voted for him you know and this is and then he came on and it turns out he is the swamp is inescapable system is completely broken I don't think I mean I certainly don't think if we elected Hillary it would all be good it would still be a mess but but the problem with Trump is

yo he's immune to facts for one thing in the am in the man is obviously deluded possibly demented certainly a sociopath I mean and I'm very impulsive and this is not you need to know this is not the person you need to be leading the Western world because because he's not reflective he's not it's it's all response you know this is this is the petulant six-year-old aspect of it he sees something and he reacts immediately there's no thought that ain't her being squeezed off and said that about his business deals he doesn't plan things he just goes on his bad if you look back on if you look at his business deals that's the same with this Korea thing I mean if he can pull that off more power to it but I'll bet you it's not going to go anywhere cuz

Little Kim Jeong hoon and the Chinese who are behind it they are very smart and they they basically realize this guy is a buffoon and they will be able to make a show on the world stage but they won't give up anything and people are already saying that's what did he actually Come Away with nothing some vague mumblings about denuclearization we've had that before but was unprecedented to see the leader of North Korea and South Korea meet at the DMZ in shake hands and trap was traveled Atlas on a cross that was pretty fast that was pretty fast I think that's progress in some way and maybe his lunacy needs leads to inadvertent progress or advert mean maybe it's it's some sort of a I mean

people are many things he can't be entirely foolish it's probably a method to his mat he never lost all of his money you know I'm telling me he really has been at least marginally success has gone bankrupt a few times but the point is it this is a guy that he's probably pretty complex as much as he is crazy probably also pretty complex and some of that might benefit us because we have this fucked-up system it's undeniably fucked up but sorry it's just a terrible idea though the end it was a good idea that was constructed you know in 1776 when it made sense back then it wasn't a great solution to the problems of the times we don't live in no time and also we didn't have

the media situation that we have now I'm in this this is also part of the problem you know with the social media and everything it's true there's tons of fake news out there produced on both you cannot tell so you you got the Trump you don't reality Distortion field right which is reinforced by his really no pretense about ignoring what's real do you know like this whole controversy about about the immigration and splitting up failing to say what we're just enforcing the law but in fact you don't work at the stroke of a pen he could change that and we didn't enforce that way before but so he's changed its cells just changed just caved in and now he's all the families through it supposedly but it's nice at least that he's doing that like yeah listening to public opinion

but this is PR it's not that he cares about these children or a or it'll how many people has he already traumatized as a result of this but I'm glad he changed it but I'm sure that was so cynical decision has advisor said look like Donald you're about to go to a year if I have to go to a rally and Duluth I honestly know if it's coming from I think it's coming from his wife that's going around so that is a jacket she wore to what she saying it says I really don't care do you like a migration young kids R kids yeah what is that is that a fashion jacket that she wore to that event you stupid fucking thing to where I really don't care do you yeah I care yeah I do care but what are you talking about Bazaar open ended question I system camera system

they have no sensitivity to see how it looks children from their families and she actually made a surprise visit to the Mexican border today to check in on it yeah what's going on good for her yeah Goodwill she's an immigrant I mean this is the irony of the whole thing is that his own wife is a fucking Emigrant weirdly the whole thing's crazy it's it's really strange but that jacket this what this is the sign of the simulation to be considered the simulation Theory

yes and thank you feel like a real might be real I mean sometimes I do wonder I mean it's like it's like reality whatever we choose to call it is becoming so weird that I often ask myself who is writing this shit and can't they get a better writer is so I began actively considering it when Congressman weiner kept pulling his dick out I was like this is just crazy that guy I like this is too much and then when Trump won I just was sitting down going imagine if we one day someone shut it off and leave the lights dim and then they turned back on and you realize well the game's over how did you like it you like what that was fake yeah you you just went if it only took an hour how long did it seem like 50 years you know

with artificial memories implanted into your mind was it one day that there's the ideas at what there's going to be an artificial reality or virtual reality so good that it's indistinguishable me this is almost inevitable if technology increases the same rate that it's increasing now whether it's alright for now or a hundred years from now we're going to reach some point in time so the real question is when we do reach that how will we know but what if we're already there how would we know and how do we test it

do we really want this you know do I mean do we want to be immersed in a virtual reality even if we could produce one so sophisticated we couldn't tell it from

whatever this is us let's assume for the moment that this is reality it's not sit do we want to migrate into a virtual reality my concern my real concern is a we are the last wave of the biological human I'm really I really do believe this concerned about that too but I'm not sure I think the that's a good thing it's a good thing for the biological human but I feel like if you separate yourself from the idea of good and bad and did the inevitability of innovation and progress It's if the human beings continue to make more more complex Electronics with higher and higher capabilities it's inevitable that we become symbiotic with these things that we can bring them into our they're going to become a part of your body I'm going to replace body parts with more efficient body parts front and rear one day going to create some sort of artificial life that whether we become a part of that artificial life we we you know merge with it or it just assumes the role of the

leader of the earth one of those things is likely to happen with the next 500 years it's just and that's that's a really generous time frame. I think that's a generous timeframe you know this this

I mean in some ways this is sort of this raises the issue about either one of the things that psychedelics put in front of us front-and-center is the fact that we are getting a strange from nature you know that's the main lesson we're getting a strange from nature we have to render stand our relationship and then you don't become a partner symbiosis with nature

and this projection is the exact opposite of that so is that you know so maybe you no one else this this race is also in the one issue that we haven't really touched on but here but you know

technology which is what this virtual reality stuff is and what any artifact is psychedelics our technology molecular biology of technology cybernetics has technology

technology inherently has no moral to mention you know these are not good or bad things you know the way that they are used by humans the decisions that humans make in the way that they're going to exploit or deploy these Technologies that's where the moral Dimension comes in Morality comes out of the human heart you know and we are one of our problems I feel as a species were extremely clever but we're not wise that's what it is we're not wise about what we do we're not able to step back and say woke yet we can produce we can get a download the brain into cybernetics or we can produce an artificial body or we can do all this genetic step do we ever stop to think about just cuz we can do something should we do something you know we we and the arrogance of science this is also a problem the sizes will say wow

We Are Scientists right we can do it so let's do it we can do the Hadron experimentum maybe it'll collapse the space-time Continuum the first small probability so let's do it right and this is something we have to learn I think also this the psychedelics are important in that regard to they are ways that we can bring our our cleverness and our wisdom into sink so that we have the wisdom not to do something even though we might be able to we should do it just because we can do it you know we really have to as a species ask ourselves is this a good idea and

I think I can at least the psychedelics are teaching tools for learning this end and really propagating the message from the community of species that's for sure going to be a meme with a photo of your face that we are very clever but we're not wise that's for sure going to be a meme sum-sum do is write 4 gal working on that right now well I've been talking about this sentence so right so striking not my real concern with this stuff is that this is inevitable and this is just like the single-celled organism became the multi celled organism and the Curious monkey who strives for material possessions is designed to create artificial life and this is just what we were set here I described it as that we are the technological

butterfly that will emerge from the Cocoon and right now we're creating this cocoon that we are this caterpillar yeah I was technological caterpillar and we don't know why we're making this cocoon and that we are going to give birth this artificial life is next stage of that maybe that might be true too I mean I mean what you say is true you know on some level anything that can be done is going to be dumb somebody's going to do it but so you know

is it good is it is it good or is it good for the collective I mean you know they're always megalomaniacs will say why like I can do it I can start a nuclear war so why don't we do this you know that's that's the tricky part again I think you know psychedelics are important in giving us a moral compass I mean wisdom not not a set of

it'll rules about that come out of the religious perception the set of rules that come out of the biological perception what is most compatible with his most nourishing nourishing for living things presumably we don't want to trash this planet you know we now have the ability to do that so you know the forces that we can manipulate for the first time in his tree pose a real possibility that we could add life on Earth

I think it's hard but I think we may be able to do it then I for one don't want to see that happen I had a bit a few years back in my comedy act about the origins of the universe and that what happens is people get so smart that they develop a big bang machine and that someone sitting around and some guy who's on the autism spectrum and filled up with ssris and antidepressants and drinking red bull all day I just goes fuck it I'll press it and he hits the button and boom we start from scratch and then every you know 14 + billion years someone develops the Big Bang machine and hits it and that's the the restart of the universe over and over with this idea of the universe possible it is well it's inevitable that there will be simulated worlds or I'm not necessarily completely obsessed with that the idea that we're living in a simulation but I am completely obsessed it

we are a relic and that we we are on our way out I really am I really do think that maybe that's one reason why we're so crazy and so hey why I just shows it is no logical progression for our culture that it's as advanced as we are as much access to information as we have we're also as crazy as we have ever been if not crazier so the age of a curious monkey is coming to a close I wonder how much of a limitation our biology is too I mean that you think about what it took to get to hear and all the battles we had to fight in the animals we had to run from and all these human reward systems that are engraved into our DNA that now here we are in a place where we hardly need them and yet we still have them just blowing up an exploding and vomiting all over the place and he's weird ways and you don't have them so I have manifested themselves and very strange behaviors that aren't aren't good for anybody and this constant need to acquire material possessions and Conquer and and

obtain things at this is this is not tenable this is not something that makes sense in a long haul but yet we still go down to see logical Road and that this is really just because this is the best way to fuel Innovation are extreme desire for material possessions is the best way to ensure that they're going to keep coming up with newer better things every year which will eventually give birth to the electronic butterfly

well I don't know what to say about that baby that maybe where were where we're headed to that Anna you know it may be that

this is a necessary step I mean if if our destiny is to actually leave the Earth at some point that if if the Earth is an incubator for life and weirdest to Destin to leave it and spread out into the Galaxy

and Beyond who knows I mean then maybe this is inevitable that we have two that we have to do that if that's what's happening but the question is what kind of being will we be when we do that you know we won't be human Brian will be something different than human that's what I've always wondered about the alien archetype that big headed thing with the no genitals and no mouth that that may be what we think of as being the ultimate form that they the human-animal text right if when we do if we do symbiotically merge with technology and electronics at that might be the form that we take it just so strange at that one accepted form and I've heard I've heard the idea that this this image is something when young eyes from a newborn baby sees a doctor and see the doctor with a mask and the you know that this is what they see and that this is imprinted in our mind is traumatic experience of

birth in the bright lights in the operating table this is why so many of these alien abduction experiences do take place and he's very clinical sterile environment and it seems like a medical procedure as if this is a remnant of the birth process I've heard that experience I've heard that it explanation but it strikes me that these things are there if you go if you go from ancient hominids you go from Australia pithecus and then you go to modern computer programmer who does an exercise and you look at their body is sort of like Joey thin body doesn't move very well right sits and then you go back to this muscular ape-like creature that's covered in hair they've lost all the hair they've lost all the muscle that become thin and then where is that going well it's obviously going that same direction it's not going to people are not going to get more muscular and harder

carrier as time goes on unless I think radical changes and we need to go out tonight so that would be the normal let me that the path would that would be the natural progression that we would eventually have bigger heads because we have bigger heads in Australia pithecus and certainly bigger heads in Champs or bonobos and it just keeps going in that same direction

so possibly or maybe we just leave the biological shell behind you know but then where are we are transhuman

you know I'm I'm not sure I want to go there I don't think I want to go there but I'm thinking is like what is what is it that's making me clean. These ideas is it that I love emotions I love illogical Behavior do I love art yeah I love all those things I love music and food and all the things that they cooking and all the things that make a person a person camaraderie but what are those things are those chemical reactions we have other beings and natural wart systems that are built into sort of enhance community and camaraderie so that we stay together so this P She survives it like what if there's something that's plants that was there something that far surpasses that in terms of pleasure and then connectivity and we realize that emotions are just these these ancient systems that were put into place when there wasn't wasn't a better option is better options it's it's much better to get your food from a supermarket than it is to chase down a gazelle for 2 days until it dies if you know of heat stroke you know I mean

improve over time you know this this animal that we are now is very different than we are at the animal used to be why would do we want to stay in this imperfect state that seems even more ridiculous that would like to stay humans forever humans yourself a lot will be in the reason why we we have all this nonsense in the world in our society is sick and we are twisted in confused part of it at least has to be that the human animal itself is very flawed cuz there's no perfect culture you can't just no chalk it up to culture because if you did chocolate up the culture you would say well this culture sucks but if you go to this country it's amazing it's no crime everyone loves everyone it's completely open is no need to worry about money because everybody is generous and in everything is and they're they're really brilliant and they get along and they create noobs architecture everything is fantastic it's the perfect society that doesn't exist but it's about the culture that we can create with the help of psychedelic that what we're shooting for

human a truly humanistic culture where people where love is what's happening where it's driven by love and not by hatred of rivalry in scarcity of fear you know and that's the whole thing the psychedelics can be the Catalyst that teaches us how to love ourselves how to love each other I love the earth I mean I know that sounds cliche and trivial but that that is in fact what the promise that they hold for us that's why their teachers they're teaching learning tools they can teach us to be

the human beings that we would like to be

you know right out at night and that's the thing that's that's the alternative to this hyper technological future you know and I mean I'm I'm all for technology I'm not against technology but again I think we have to

you know we have to

we have to bring wisdom to it we have to make a situation where you know it is not controlling us we are controlling it and we're thinking clearly about we have you know this enormous panoply of technologies that can do so many things we have to think about how do we deploy those in such a way to maximize human potential or you know our Humanity sold that's really I think what the promise that psychedelics hold out

and that's you know that's what we're hoping to create the you know as a colonel and we're not the only ones obviously a lot of people have this idea and it's happening but that's the idea is to create a place where people can learn this and you know

that's my hope for the future of humanity well it's it's great hope for the future of the people there A lot today and I think that's the most important we don't know what's coming but we do know it's here right now I think that's a great hope for what's here and if we don't do it pretty soon there won't be anybody else I have to worry about it I'm the best way to end this I think possible okay great talk thank you I always appreciate you coming or man ethnopharmacologist search for psychoactive drugs to volumes 1967 and volume 2 2017 50 years available working people getting can you get on Amazon and synergetic press you can tell people about that you got going on

I think we pretty well covered. You know I will send you the links to the videos Witcher open access to all these lectures so folks can watch them if they want yeah alright alright always a pleasure always a pleasure. Thank you thank you so much thank you everybody for the podcast and thank you to our sponsors thank you to zoom video conferencing Zoom. Us ladies gentlemen go there set up your free account and see the best damn video conferencing Zoom. Us go there and set up your free account at Zoom. Thank you also to the cash app ladies and gentlemen the cash app allows you to buy and sell Bitcoin you can pay people back you could deposit

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yes

I was going to say yeah baby because that's how Kyle Dunnigan does his Caitlyn Jenner impression there's a guy named Kyle Dunnigan okay he's a comedian and he has the funniest fucking Instagram page on planet Earth that is a fact and if you disagree with me fuck you

I haven't seen every Instagram page don't get riled up this is not real I'm not saying this like as a a fact of mathematics God damn is Instagram Pages funny he's going to be here tomorrow I'm very excited I fucking love his go to his page is Kyle Dunnigan won the number one on Instagram Instagram Instagram he'll be here tomorrow so I'm very excited about that and until then we'll see you beautiful people soon okay alright bye bye