#1311 - David Pakman

Jun 5, 2019

David Pakman is a television & radio host, political commentator, and YouTube personality. He is the host of the internationally syndicated political television and talk radio program The David Pakman Show. 

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all right

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my guest today is a very intelligent man I have enjoyed his YouTube videos he is it's mostly he's mostly a political guy but we talks about a lot of social issues as well and he's a really nice guy and I enjoy talking to him tremendously please welcome David pakman

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The Joe Rogan Experience trained by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day hello David here we go we're live we're doing it yes we're doing and what's going on man I'm nervous don't be I enjoy your show I really do thank you it's a pleasure to watch you're very smart guy menu and like I said we're just talking about it you're very reasonable in this world I think there's so much of this the YouTube political world the YouTube commentary world where people are so fucking toxic you know there's there's so much negativity there's so much what they call dunking on people so much dunking you do a little Duncan some of its warranted it is warranted yes but I don't know if it's beneficial to the to the people doing the dunking yes or even to the cause I think it is temporarily well sometimes it's good because it showed it mocks people's positions and it makes people realize he had that is a ridiculous position so if you're on the fence if you're not really quite sure how you feel about things

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if you see someone get mocked for ridiculous position that maybe you've even shared for a little bit right maybe maybe haven't explored it deeply and you see someone who has exploded deeply sort of expose all the flaws in this line of thinking it's good but my thing what I'm I I interview a lot of people on the right and a lot of people on the left and I just hate all this conflict that I'd say the unnecessary conflict I think is when you when you watch television today and you see antifa fighting with you know Trump supporters and all this all this weird conflict I don't I don't necessarily think that most of it is is necessary necessary well I think the devil is in the details yeah so like as an example if you want to bring together I don't know people who are on operate opposite sides of the climate debate for example good luck sure right well why is that

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part of that you could argue is if one side just does not accept science right how can you really bring those people together doesn't mean you need physical conflict to resolve it in fact I completely agree with you the physical conflict is totally counterproductive but at a certain point on some issues I understand why there's like an intractable t to the debate where it seems completely impossible to move forward because whichever side you're on I would argue that I'm on the right side of these issues and others would disagree when you're far apart in a way that you can't even agree as to like what the starting point facts are about the conversation how do you even see how do you start I have some ideas as to how I try to do it but it's very tough it is very tough I just don't think dunking on people always like constantly shitting on people is necessarily the way to do it yeah and I think it's important to distinguish between just straight up at homonyms where someone is wrong and bad because I think they're a bad person or

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idiot or whatever to recognizing when somebody is a participant in bad faith in a conversation yeah to when someone has maybe Fallen prey to audience capture or whatever else might be kind of influencing what what and how they're doing I think that those criticisms are legitimate but yeah you got to stay away from just ad hominem yes yes I agree and I think that it's just so common today it's also extremely attractive the the YouTube algorithm you know as far as comments go I mean you know actually kind of encourages it and so does Facebook's so it does you know anytime there's a social media platform that is a dependent one of the best ways to get people to engage is to have something they disagree with so they can get angry yes until it becomes no longer brand safe according to whoever's running the platform right I mean if you go back to April 2017 where I

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woke up and saw that my YouTube channel made 19 cents the previous day and I text Kyle kolinsky and I say I think there's like a glitch like it says I made 19 cents and he says it says I made 35 cents or something like that something's going on and it was the beginning of like ad pocalypse 1.0 yeah and that was a rough three-week period And so so it's you know encourage the debate and the Battle of ideas so to speak and all of the stuff until advertisers get worried and they say you know our ads are showing up on stuff that's a little bit touch-and-go for us that's a weird one to me because I YouTube has always been a secondary thought for me the first thought was the audio version of the podcast

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and in fact when we were uploading it to YouTube at first I was like why are we even doing this I guess why not some people probably want to watch it and then somewhere along the line it became at least close to as big as the audio version of it and then maybe even more significant because

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one of the things that the YouTube version has is the comment section which is often a fucking dumpster fire but it least there is some sort of like a community engagement aspect of it that doesn't really exist in iTunes like and iTunes it's sort of it's in a vacuum right sure but when the ad pocalypse thing happened I was like hmm what is going on here like wasn't it wasn't my primary focus so it wasn't terrifying but people that only did YouTube and people that relied on that for their living I mean it's a huge blow it was huge and at the time I'm trying to think back I think maybe like around 30% of my entire shows revenue is coming from YouTube at the time so it was not everything but it was still significant right I mean I've staff and overhead and all of that stuff so just overnight 30% going away is huge and that's why I've tried to move to the model of telling my audience you can skip all of this stuff you know even some of these other you know super chats and all of this other

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stuff like we run a membership program on my website I control a hundred percent of it so it's not a patreon deal we're on patreon but it's not big for us the the way I think about it is as long as I mean listen yeah there's you know marijuana companies that are having trouble even processing payments but assuming like stripe and PayPal don't say you can't even accept payments anymore David pakman right I control the entire process on my website so when people pay their six bucks all but two point nine percent gets to me and when ad pocalypse happened I saw it as a maybe blessing in disguise and that I could now explain to the audience here's the problem with these algorithms here's the problem when it goes from I'm fighting white supremacist content to an algorithm can't distinguish between that and white supremacist kind of right that's bad for me yeah right when I interview Richard Spencer hmm I obviously don't agree with Richard Spencer but can an algorithm figure out that there's a difference between an interview

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do with Richard Spencer and white nationalist propaganda I don't know but we can kind of get around all that if you just go directly to me and that's why my focus has been growing that those direct did you interview Richard Spencer yeah did you get shit for that yes yeah that's a weird one right you know I'm sure you're aware of that that what is it called the data in society that the content whether there was a woman who made a bunch of connections like Joe Rogan knows David pakman no and Joe Rogan also knows Alex Jones Alex Jones must be friends with David pakman like the man yeah sort of like one of those mines you know like it's and it was really weird it's like guilt by association I saw a couple of them there was like an initial one which may be thinking of then there was a map of like the YouTube sphere specifically left middle and right there something like yeah and this idea that everyone's like a part of a grand conspiracy to help each other out and push right ideology even though you know a lot of people that were labeled as right are

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like who like me oh I'm not right at all my sense is your politics are pretty left on most stuff although I don't I mean I don't know you personally Beyond just seeing your shows but maybe the critique is based on because I think that those Maps were based on what is the YouTube algorithm suggesting mmm and so that may not be in line with your personal politics right it's just maybe what we're talking about like if you're interested in Conflict if you're trying to get engagement that that's the way to do it like in a few to Out YouTube algorithm is constantly suggesting people like Ben Shapiro right Kevin McGinnis or whatever and those videos come up over and over again sure and I mean so a lot of those people panels do really well on YouTube so if you interview someone who has a channel themselves there's a very good chance that the algorithm if they're watching your interview with that person will say well here's a lot of their stuff and then once you click there the the algorithm very quickly starts to build a picture

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of every individual user if you watch your interview with Ben Shapiro and then it takes you to a daily wire video right then it takes you to like the daily wire second-stringer guy and then you're off who knows where that's it's all machine learning right mean that's for the most part yeah that's it is it's a troubling aspect of that thing that they do where they suggest the next videos which didn't used to be a thing it used to be you would go to YouTube you would watch a video right and then you would go find another video right they didn't suggest anything and then somewhere along the line I don't remember what year it was but this started happening like and then they start auto-playing the next video autoplay yeah I think there was some kind of recommendation thing very early on but initially it might have been restricted to just other videos from the same channel you're watching probably and at a certain point it started to recommend other things and I don't know if you look at your analytics and see what percentage of your views are coming

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I'm that recommendations feed from other stuff but it's significant for a lot of YouTube channels the the tagging your videos and getting the right metadata on them in order to bring an audience is an important thing so it's a double-edged sword in some sense it sounds sounds like yeah but to get back to what you were saying about so rich labeled you always Richard okay yeah I was going to say they labeled you as right but you're not right dude what about this it's disingenuous I mean I've said it over and over and over again I've never voted for a republican in my life I voted independent for Gary Johnson just because he did my podcast and I wasn't happy with Clinton and I wasn't happy with Trump just like this is gross I'm just going to vote for Gary Johnson I mean I didn't think he was going to win you know he had almost no chance when he didn't know where what Aleppo was right I was like that was his he was his scream you know like a what's his face from New Hampshire and Howard Dean Howard Dean yeah well voting California also I see me but I'm sure it wasn't going to joke yeah

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but people conveniently we'll just as or they'll say that like you're a trojan horse they like you're a pretend left wing person who's really just pushing right-wing ideologies like well which one which which right-wing ideology is it gay marriage is it what is it I put I'm on the left on everything except maybe the Second Amendment right I think the criticism that could be levied if one wanted to make it into a criticism would be if you engage with right-wing ideas that you don't agree with right like I take you at your face you know face value that you don't agree with a lot of the stuff that you're right wing guests say one could make the argument that by not challenging those ideas it's implicitly lending them more credibility than maybe you think they should have that's interesting because what I try to do with people unless something saying someone saying something egregious I try to let them talk I want to know how they feel I want to know

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I thought processes and so instead of just challenging them and it on everything I want them to elaborate right and I feel like by doing that I get a sense of how they've come to that conclusion and whether it's logical right whether it's when they're with their they've actually used their thoughts and they've really calculated and thought this is the position I take and this is why and I a lot of people don't know there's a lot of the lots a lot of times we challenged people in their positions you find out like they don't really know what the fuck they're talking about and that the best way to find that out is let them talk yeah like and to someone's on climate change right that was I mean there's the Socratic method of questioning you know which is why do you think that and how do you know that that's true etc etc and sort of some other questions that that come from it which I do as well I mean I think I don't know to tie it to the Richard Spencer interview that I did some of the criticism I received after was from people on the left I mean the people who decided it was most of the people on the left four

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doing the interview yeah for for what I said in the interview for what I'm doing okay yeah for doing the interview at all the criticism was more from the left right for what I said in the interview the criticism was more from the right from people who just agreed with Richard Spencer like what things did they agree with that it is inevitable that people with different ethnic or religious backgrounds simply will not be able to co-exist together peacefully and we're better off trying to figure out how can we separate People based on their membership in ethnic or religious groups address separatism I mean literally separatism that's sad it's a sad thought that you just can't get along with people that do other things that that are interested interested in other things that come from other places that have different religions that have different points of view like why the oh well they have a series of you know Decades of what they call scholarship supporting their view but for the context of my interview I made it abundantly clear that I

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I agree with that stuff right yeah and my view is and everybody can have a different view about how they do interviews my view is if I just allow the the what I consider to be disgusting views to be spread out right you know like a spray bottle just spray them everywhere not do anything else I can't say that I'm doing something that I think is valuable I don't feel like is valuable so my my Approach is are the ideas known enough to be worth refuting that's number one if it's some weird conspiracy theory that has not even any following whatsoever I'm probably not going to choose to even entertain it because it's irrelevant in sort of always so my first question is is was Richard Spencer relevant at the time all right was Rising this guy was considered by many of the sort of creator of the alt-right he was growing a following in the context of the Trump candidacy at the time or maybe Administration I don't remember when was it really was it was I think 2016 or trying to

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number one it was I don't remember when I first heard his name yeah but how did he become how did he come to prominence I don't know the sequence but I think he had a weapon alt-right website that had articles of some kind and then he that website became more known and the fucking terms so talk the alt-right you know alt left the Centrist I got these two all these different labels are so I'd rather talk about issues I see there is so clunky but so you know first thing was I did want to interview him but if I had felt that I wouldn't be prepared to make it abundantly clear that I don't agree with the guy and I think his ideas were terrible I wouldn't have done the interview so the problem I had with the critiques from the left of me doing that some who said the last thing we need to be doing is giving this guy a voice that's how often how they say it or a platform my response was this guys getting interviewed in lots of other places that aren't even challenging him right I'm at least making an attempt here to get

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something in the record that there are arguments against these ideas these are bad ideas and I don't want to be part of the diffusion of just the ideas themselves when I'm gonna be pushing back I'm gonna have to watch that now when you did do that like what was his response was during the interview what was his response to your push back I mean he had answers yeah he's he was well prepared I don't know if there were they were unique or new arguments that I was making but there was no argument to be made that I was letting him just pair it white nationalist talking points unopposed which I wouldn't I just wouldn't feel good about that right it's not how I do interviews yeah and then the left was upset that you're giving him air quotes a platform a very small portion of the left I want to be super clear that's good laughs I mean my audience is very left almost everybody understood what I was doing mmm ten years ago I was interviewing the Westboro Baptist Church most people understood what I was doing they were more prominent at the time but there was this sliver of the left that just didn't want the conversation to take place and I always struggle with this because

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as you can see I have no problem criticizing that sliver of the left my concern is getting like overly wrapped up to criticisms of the left that are only held by these like Niche slices yes and that's why I try to avoid going further than necessary into those criticisms like I think there are more serious critiques of the left to be made mmm Beyond anti speech or want to limit speech or whatever I mean there are more so that's a pretty big issue well I don't I don't actually agree that it exists on a significant portion of the left like I think a bigger issue for example if you said what is like a serious issue that the left needs to contend with right now I would say a more serious issue is if you look at the progressive accomplishments of the early 20th century for example like 1905 to 1925 and the New Deal accomplishments that the left had in the time of FDR what was different

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I think then then the left now is that you didn't have to be completely in line with the specific set of policies or ideas and I worry that now there's a little bit of the left maybe having this idea that if you're not in line on all of these issues whatever the checklist is so to speak you're not really worthy of being a participant in what is clearly a leftward move and sort of the average Americans political orientation I don't want to see that prevent progress right yeah that's that's the hard tribalism right that's that's worth the line gets drawn you're with us or against us and there's one way to think there is there is a lot of that I mean I saw it with Healthcare recently mmm with health care I don't think that you can make any serious case from the left that Healthcare is fine and the for-profit employer connected system that we have is working like I don't think there's any Progressive case to be made for that

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people will differ is what about Medicare for all versus some other system system that looks more like Canada's or the UK or Germany or whatever and I've already started to see like when I say on my show I'm kind of agnostic on this like the system we have is a disaster we need a system that will get coverage to everybody the numbers can be made to work any number of different ways we've looked at it but 80% of people on Medicare I believe it is have some additional coverage they either are still working part-time or full-time and get coverage that way or they're poor enough to be on Medicaid the point is medicare-for-all doesn't solve every issue right it's way better than what we have but here's like a dozen other possibilities looking at other countries there is a portion of the left that doesn't like that because I'm saying I'm against Medicare for all I'm not saying that what I'm saying is there are a number of different ways to improve upon the system we have all of which sever this relationship between usually your employer and these for-profit insurance

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yeah we be open to that I really don't understand private citizens that don't want easy access to Quality Health Care for everybody that confuses the shit out of me like have you ever been hurt have you ever been sick yeah have you ever been broke right do you want to be broke and have no access to health care no one does no one wants anybody to care about do not have access to health care of all the things that we concentrate on this country there's two things that drive me fucking crazy that people just dismiss education and Health Care the idea that you have to like my buddy Greg Greg Fitzsimmons he sent in his kid off to school how much they say that it was 65 65 thousand dollars a year for both of his kids for each of his kid so you know he's got two kids that that's that hurts my head even think about spending a hundred and thirty thousand dollars a year just on if you're a regular person with a regular job how the fuck do you do that impossible

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it's impossible is there so much fucking money and then that's not even paying for housing and food and transportation and books and everything else that you're going to need to and to make it more difficult for young people to succeed is one of the worst ways to make a stronger country if you want a strong country you want educated people that get to pursue their dreams and the idea that we are so willing to spend so much money on these costly regime change Wars and flying troops overseas these places that they don't want to go no one no one wants it to happen and it's trillions of dollars and people are fine with that but you talk to them about some sort of socialized education system and people freak out and think you want to turn us into communist well I think what is really important to understand is that the facts you just laid out don't matter to people Rush see this as an issue of what do people deserve

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what do they deserve so if you say to a fiscal conservative you know if you consider the amount that the employee pays for premiums plus the employer plus your co-pays a plus coinsurance right you put it all together into some amount and you explain to them there's lots of great analyses that have been done which tell us that with roughly the same amount of money maybe a small payroll tax in addition with roughly that same amount it all could be done with a single-payer system that covers everybody it's the same you're taking all of these individual risk pools where you have different for-profit insurers and then you have systems for people that don't have enough money Medicaid you have systems for people that are over 65 Medicare you put it all together you spread the risk far wider the employer no longer has to pay their part of the premium the employee no longer pays part of their premium to the for-profit insurance company the numbers work they're still not going to say you know what that sounds great it's actually pretty fiscally conservative let's do it because that's

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point there is a portion of the right that just doesn't think people have earned Health Care they just haven't earned it they have education or education that's right and it's very hard to change people's minds when that's their view I think it's might be George lakoff who I believe calls it strict father morality which is like how would a really strict father treat a child who comes to them and says hey you know what I figured out a way that we can all have health care the strict father even if the numbers make sense would say I'm going to teach you a lesson you haven't earned that health care either because you don't work or you don't make enough money more you're on disability whatever the case may be how do you convince someone to change their mind when that's their world view yeah how do you want it's an ideologically based decision and that you're on team are or team L what which which group of ideas do you adopt right the UK system sucks

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you need to talk to people that get health care over in the UK it sucks but at least they have a system it's just not the same Quality Health Care that you get in America same of my friends in Canada I have friends in Canada that have come down here to get surgery because they find better doctors over here because France always going to Canada to get his Opera that was why was that why did he do that the best places in Canada the best place for hernias for that type of hernia I believe you hmm I mean here's the thing even in saying the UK system and the Canadian system neither one is that good right that those two systems are totally different right so it I feel like socialized medicine they are both well yes in some sense I mean the Canadian system is administered at the Province level so the province is sort of like the market instead of having all these sub markets attached to individual for-profit insurers at the provincial level that's how its organized the UK has the National Health Service where they're actually they don't actually run the health care facilities but they're the ones who are Contracting them so it's sort of like the

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Care Facility still isn't own entity it's not that you're going and the government is the employer of the doctor so to speak but they're Contracting with the healthcare facilities but the point I want to make is that there are criticisms of all of these systems but they're different ones so when we say at the British and Canadian systems aren't that good right let's figure out in what ways each is not that good because they're different ways whether you're talking about health outcomes early detection cost per treatment whatever hmm you really have to drill down and figure out and what way are we saying it's not as good yeah what I'm saying is that there's no perfect system there is no perfect so systems are right but I believe that most of the best doctors in terms of like North America at least are in the United States I'm sure there's probably some very good doctors in Canada that do specialized medicine but I think really good doctors are incentivized by profit I really do I think there is some

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in for if you spend so much money for medical school and you bust your ass you want to make a lot of money and some of the best doctors earn a really good living then I think I think limiting their their ability to earn that money won't incentivize people to be excellent so a couple different things I mean number one to be clear we're now starting to get into a little bit of broader economic philosophy like I'm a capitalist time for social democracy which is a mixed system that's a capitalist system that says we're going to invest tax revenue in a particular way to make sure that no one Falls below a certain level so my just to contextualize that my point of view is not from one of becoming a socialist country I think we share those views I think so a lot of doctors will say that even though on sort of on paper in a socialized medicine system they might make less for a particular procedure for example or something like that a lot of them are still in favor

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of those systems because it would drastically reduce their overhead so there's all of this apparatus that includes medical billing and coding both on the insurer end and at the healthcare provider end the hospital and the insurance company both are battling over what is it that was done right what are the codes that apply here and how what our reimbursement rates there's fraud when it comes to that and that requires an apparatus for investigating and adjudicating that that adds more and more cost so I don't think it's as easy I don't think it's as obvious that under those systems at the end of the day a doctor that owns PCP group for example or an orthopedic clinic or whatever the case may be I don't know that it's that clear that they end up taking home less money hmm that's interesting I'd wonder if in practice that would play out that way maybe I am maybe I'm talking about just like high-end orthopedic

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Jen's had two knee surgeries for athletes and things along those lines they often would be outside of whatever Insurance apparatus we're talking about anyway a lot of those folks are often being paid out of pocket anyway yes so it's less beliefs some at least some so for the average person's experience I think it's less relevant yeah I'm then there's also liability insurance which is extremely expensive that's a giant issue with with doctors it's a huge expense it is yeah I mean I think it is necessary hmm there's a question as to whether it's organized in the best way I know less about that component than some of the other ones yeah the education and Healthcare those are the two things that I think we can both agree we need to invest money on and we need to figure out some way to make that more accessible to yes yes and I don't understand people that don't think that and if that's what that is the strict father mentality that just the only thing that makes sense to me is that you don't want people who are kind of half-assing college just

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the can just get in I think that that comes up a lot when you hear about so-called free college which isn't free it's we're saying we're paying for it through taxation really important to point that out it's just not for everybody that's okay I mean I think that that that sometimes gets lost yeah and yes there are more and more jobs that require college degrees even though you can make the case maybe the college degree is not actually necessary but it's a way to sort of thin the herd of applicants in order to just make hiring you know more practical but I do think that it's okay to say that college isn't for everybody but the same ideas that apply to so called free college meaning college paid for through education could apply to trade school they could apply to retraining programs there's a whole bunch of other ways that it could be done yeah no I agree yeah I just the college is not for every one thing is more true now than ever before particularly with certain technology studies you're learning things

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your four years at the University that are just going to be completely outdated by the time you graduate in what kind of program for example Jamie what he did with audio engineering oh I see okay we went to school for audio engineering by the time he got out it was all useless that but that was not a four-year bachelor's program right it is now oh it is now okay when I went there it wasn't available for that but since then they have made that available and that's also in the time that YouTube has made basically education free for a lot of people sure so I mean I think with that the issue is in my mind that when you consider the cost relative to the earnings potential as you pointed out when you think about $68,000 a year or you know I went over those I guess taught at Boston College and I think it was like 64,000 all in something like that depending on what field you're going into it's almost impossible to pay that off ever yeah so some at some point something needs to change and this kind of gets us into

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technological automate Automation and unemployment stuff of what happens as computers and Technology start to replace jobs and that's where I think there's a pretty clear line between a free market capitalist a Social Democrat like myself and actual socialism like what should happen with the gains that come from those technological advancements but as far as the education piece is concerned so it's completely unsustainable the way it is now I knew about you before this happened but then I really kind of got on board with you when someone was trying to get you fired from Boston University and I remember some College Boston College sorry and I tweeted it and I was like like what what is this this is grandness so it's a woman named Amy siskind who I don't know other than that incident where you had a disagreement about something it wasn't yeah it wasn't toxic it wasn't hostile I didn't think said I didn't listen explain what you said and what she said what she said that you disagree was so we may be able to even find the tweet

► 00:38:16

sheep tweeted something the gist being that she would not be supporting any candidate in 2020 who's whiter mail I think that that was a Justice and I responded I'm going for a memory here the gist was something like isn't that the definition of racism your sort of preemptively excluding someone from consideration on the basis of race and in that case gender if it was white and various right there yeah their support I will not support white male candidates in the den primary unless you slept through midterms women were our most successful candidate biggest damn vote Getters in History Obama 08 Hillary 16 white male is not where our party is at and it is our least safe option in 2020

► 00:39:02

right so I said isn't there something not Progressive about preemptively dismissing a candidate based on their race and gender I feel like there's a word to describe that as a progressive I won't be jumping on board yeah so will you can explore basically didn't even say it's racist right you said there's a were described that yeah and that's a very polite way of disagreeing with someone I thought it was polite and she tried to get you fired yeah she contacted as far as I know so okay I don't I'm going by what she said she said she contacted Boston College and told them not to allow me to teach there that's insane and Boston College since I've just an adjunct I'm not on staff when I'm not teaching like during the three months of the semester I'm employed there and the other nine months I'm not so I think Boston College said he's not currently employed here and I think that that's basically as far as it went but I did talk to some other faculty there who were aware of the thing that was going on that's a crazy thing to do

► 00:40:02

mmm just I think so it's a nasty mean thing to do to like what someone can't disagree with you and it's a very good point I think she probably got upset because you made a very good point and tweet started coming her way and a lot of people they read those fucking comments and people get toxic in those comments yeah random strange people that you don't know and then you're forced to you know look at their opinions and their criticisms and their insults that incident started me down the path of drastically limiting my social media use good for you yeah I mean that that was the beginning and then it became I mean you know this way more than I do because I think on all platforms you have roughly 10 times the following that I do no matter what you do post or whatever if you look at what the feedback is it's extraordinarily toxic and horrible negative stuff that is only a distraction to what I'm trying to do and most of it probably isn't but I hadn't evolved Lon yesterday in the mall ramakant yeah

► 00:41:02

one of the things that he brought up this oh so huge it's so true is that you can have 10 positive things but that one negative will outweigh the 10 positives in your mind you me and your mom absolutely yeah absolutely especially if you're a person who's self-critical or a self objective you're analyzing your behavior was that good was that bad right and then you read that one bad comic fuck are they right you don't read all the people that say you're great oh brilliant loved it yeah fuck you loser hey loser absolutely I mean that's when I announced I was going to be doing your show if you look at what the comments were almost all this is awesome great left-wing voice talking to Joe Rogan go get him David this is such a great opportunity can't wait to watch you face plant oh geez and that's the one where I'm like man are they right like I'm not gonna face plant fuck so I don't know I'm just trying to limit the amount that I'm on to ya one thing I am doing though because I mean my show is in part as successful as it is because of social media so I can't ignore

► 00:42:02

right you don't have to engage I don't have to engage and I also can just say I will check our networks in the morning then I'll spend the whole day I'll do my show I'll do what I need to do and then before I sign off for the evening I'll check it and that's a terrible idea because what if you read the worst shit right before you eat dinner or go to bed well no it'll be like 5 p.m. so you'll have five hours five hours to cool off yeah and it is way better and weekends I'm almost I mean people are like David you're still Tweeting on the weekends a lot of those are like pre-scheduled Tweets we're all just sit and yeah yeah jewel some stuff and I am trying to stay off it and it's been really great I mean it's been a fast we looked at our phones yesterday we did a sober October podcast with my four friends yeah we looked at our phones to look at phone usage and I use my phone for hours a day on my phone for hours a day on average fuck that's a lot what app did you use to measure it this is something on your iPhone okay yeah you have a Android I'm sure they have a similar thing yeah yeah four hours of screen time like ooh that's not good they're adding that to the computer to so it's going to

► 00:43:02

fine you'll know how much you're looking at all screens hmm But if you're writing well we're gonna count that kind of sure but I mean work staring at the screen that's hard work bitch hey that's what they're arguing you guys are making for the phone just as Burke's argument yeah well Birds arguments not because he doesn't write that's ridiculous one thing I did that actually is useful is I used to have my social apps on the home screen and Cal Newport and some others have said you got you gotta get rid of those he actually Advocates getting rid of the the apps all together so that you have to go on a computer and choose to go to facebook.com or Twitter I haven't gotten there yet but even just removing them from the home screen makes me significantly less likely to even pull them up its two clicks yeah to swipe up and scroll over to the app right but even just getting them off the home screen keeps me off of them significantly that's smart that makes sense yeah I need a certain amount of access to those things with my business right scheduling shows and things along those lines

► 00:44:02

but yeah it's not good for you may I think one of the biggest realizations is that people don't really miss you that much they don't hear from you for a couple days yeah like that's one of the things where the idea of needing constant engagement comes from sort of like a slightly narcissistic point of view where like people are going to notice if I don't tweet for from Thursday night until Monday morning or do anything right right right right they really don't they don't they don't there's a lot of other people to pay attention to do there are a few people that tweet on you that that are kind of crazy and that want to hear from you all day long yeah but they'll get used to it they'll get used to you they well Vanishing and I don't know I mean Cal Newport he has you have you had them on no no okay he wrote deep work and then more recently he wrote digital minimalism and he goes into detail about just the effect of credit on my phone but it feels sacrilegious to put that as you take it out right now yeah I mean he goes into detail about this stuff and just about you know the

► 00:45:02

we need more uninterrupted periods of concentration for what is the book called again deep work and then digital minimalism

► 00:45:11

and they're both I interviewed him recently really just solid very solid stuff also yeah what we just about to get into oh so we're going to send this woman Amy siskin did you reach out to her when she did that and privately yeah no no did you reach out publicly well you did publicly declare that you try to get you fired right yes I did did she respond I don't know because she blocked me oh God damn it he blocked you over that and yeah Jesus that is so sensitive what what is Twitter for right is it just to fall in line is it just to agree with everything someone says with no question whatsoever what's extra interesting about it is she blocked me on Twitter but then I treat my Facebook profile basically as public so I post stuff on there it's the same whether you're friends with me or not and I had posted something totally innocuous about I was at a restaurant

► 00:46:11

or drinking an espresso and I don't even know what it was she showed up there and commented that she had called Boston College and told them not to you know not to hire me or to fire me or whatever I'm supposed about you having an espresso it was just whatever little post right but the point is she determined that the exchange was worthy of blocking me on Twitter but then she came to my personal Facebook page and said I'm calling Boston College and telling them to fire you

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there's a word for that

► 00:46:47

God is really a few there's a gang but there's a big one yeah there's a four-letter one the I just don't understand why someone would want to do that to someone why why can't you disagree why can't you and she's just upset that you pointed out a glaring problem with what you were saying yeah I apparently and you know the thing is I don't I the way I operate I don't think even necessarily that she's a bad person I just assumed that she has you know some emotional thing going on she could have had a terrible day as far as I know someone near and dear to her died that day I am someone near and dear to me died I wouldn't go to be necessarily be on Twitter wouldn't respond to your Facebook or post about you drinking an espresso fair fair tell people are trying to get you fired but my Approach is I just I really do assume most people are pretty good people and even when we have disagreements I tend to give the benefit of the doubt that if we could only talk the way we were doing yeah we could figure out 95% of the disagreement agree

► 00:47:44

maybe not all of it right but most of it so I don't begrudge her I mean yeah I don't she behaved in a way I wouldn't behave but who knows what she had going on you know I mean it's yeah well it didn't get you fired so it's not that bad but if it did that would have been horrible it would have been a different situation yeah would have been probably good publicity yeah probably helps you I think so you got excited about that yeah it was funny the reason I'm thinking back actually to a conversation I had at the time where someone said to me if you do get fired it's the best possible thing that'll happen right it's it would just be fantastic and it didn't because I wasn't actually employed there at the time that's the the irony of it well this is the thing the falling in line the no room for deviation from the ideology sure this is this is a giant issue that I have with both both parties it's and I think it's one of the reasons why people are in these parties to begin with I don't necessarily think that people have clearly thought out every single aspect of whatever part of the

► 00:48:44

fine with sharing they fall in line and they adopt predetermined pattern of behavior that seems to be attractive at the time and then they fall in line with whatever that party is saying yeah I think that is a giant percentage of people when someone deviates from that like you did someone who is also clearly a progressive and clearly a left-wing person and you're criticizing something and very very politely and that she just goes Haywire over that that's the thing right it's like are you responsible for the people who also comment on your post and this is this is where we're getting to this like Vox thing that's happening with Steven Crowder right now right are you responsible for the reaction to what you post cause if you look at what Steven Crowder said that if we don't people don't know the story Steven Crowder got into it with this guy who is a writer for vaux who is he's gay his Twitter handle is gay wonk Carlos Moss

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yeah so it's not that he's hiding that he's gay talks about it all the time he's kind of effeminate and Steven Crowder mocked that any mock that in these videos where he was

► 00:49:57

criticizing Carlos is position on antifa specifically what I saw and in doing that he called him was queer Mexican this like and he's doing it in a ribbing ways doing in a joking way and then Carlos Maza posts all these horrible tweets that came his way and apparently he got doc so people got his phone and they were saying debate Steven Crowder was getting all these text messages in and all this hateful stuff that was coming his way so the question is who is responsible for that hateful stuff if Steven Crowder calls him queer

► 00:50:38

is what is queer okay is LBGTQ what do we do there what do we do if the queue is in is he is it okay to call someone gay who identifies as gay if he calls them the gay little Mexican is that is that bad like what is how bad is that like what is that you can saying but so you feel what I'm saying here it's like I know where you're getting at let's zoom out a little bit right and then we'll get in okay man where do you even start with this because that's where I come back here right if we will analyze the specifics in a second maybe but first if you look at the policy the terms of service of YouTube there's a Verge article from yesterday before a few days ago earlier this week before YouTube it made the decision to demonetised Steven Crowder well they made the decision to not act initial say that it didn't violate the terms of services and then today as I got in here Jamie informed me that they made a decision to deamonte that's right so in the article where they made the decision not to act they actually put

► 00:51:38

YouTube's terms of service are with regard to bullying and harassment my reading of it and we could go through them if we could pull them up we could go through it line by line if we wanted my reading was that the that definitely did break the terms and conditions that was my view as I looked at what it was that was done by Steven Crowder and what the terms of service are just matching it up not looking at the comments what was it specifically it was specifically targeting an individual on the basis of sexual orientation but he wasn't targeting them on the basis of it he was mentioning that with his bad ideas he was targeting his bad ideas in regards to antifa a lot of that he was dismissing antifa but if you look at Crowder's video and I can't believe I spent so much time doing this but you don't like a whole hour on this two days ago yeah he was talking about how Carlos just dismisses and teeth as being not that big a deal and that there's bias in the media whenever there's anything negative that happens because you look at the overall picture and then Crowder goes on

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talk about all the assaults all the murders that there was sexual assaults there was rapes there was all these things that happen with antifa he was talking about all these different people that got maced in the face all these people that got hurt and and he's highlighting all like this is not something to easily dismiss sure and that the FBI had labeled antifa a terrorist organization so so far it's just politics it's just what it what does he think what do I think so far it's just that part of it and along the way he's like yeah but the queer little Latino says this yeah and when he does that that's where it's like okay what is he doing is he Mama he's kind of mocking him right and he's mocking them by saying he's queer but he says he's queer or he says he's gay yeah but that's like saying I mean listen just because the N word is in rap songs doesn't mean that any that it defines ago and I put the N word is not in like it's not like the lbgt ñ you know I'm saying it's not like a part of their their organ its I think the principle though is you're suggesting that because

► 00:53:38

certain word is sometimes used self-referential e by members of a group that any use of it from the outside is by definition not problematic and I'm just saying it's more complicated and you've got it certainly more complicated you do not look at specific I'm going from memory but wasn't Steven Crowder also wearing a shirt that said fags with the a with an app's figs wink wink nudge nudge it said socialism is for figs okay well he's calling a gay is a fig instead of an eye as he's calling a gay guy Equinox yeah yes yeah I mean in total it's not crazy don't worry it's so but you know there's a there's certainly an argument that but I don't necessarily think the t-shirt is for Carlos Mesa I think that's a t-shirt that it just has because he thinks it's funny and because Che Guevara who's on the shirt is that is one of the weirdest things that people worship that guy he was a horrific human being a mass murderer a terrible sociopath

► 00:54:38

a psychopath and because it looks good and it was in the Cuban Revolution looks good with a beret on you know he's he became for a long time I mean it's kind of died off but he became like though the woke poster boy I'm from Argentina I know you know yeah I reborn there yeah no kidding yeah so I mean listen here's luckily my country bro I made it so listen I think that I've I do appreciate what you're saying and I agree with you to a certain extent I believe that when YouTube yesterday said we looked at the content in total and we don't think it violates our terms and conditions I disagreed with them I thought it very clearly violated their terms and conditions we're I am thinking about it now is the application of those terms and conditions violations because a similar thing happened with Alex Jones as well which was there's lots of way smaller players that are violating these same terms and conditions but nobody knows about them

► 00:55:38

YouTube doesn't know about them they don't get any attention because they have no audience so I think there's the question of the application of these terms and condition conditions in a way that's sort of fair and is not ultimately going by the public blowback or reaction to situations because that that's how I'd pocalypse 1.0 and again I think it was a Coke ad appeared on an obviously racist video on a Channel with like eight hundred or a thousand subscribers hmm The Wall Street Journal I think it was did an article saying look at these screenshots of these advertisers on these crazy racist videos that led to blow back because YouTube didn't want to lose money and ultimately that's what this is about I know that there are people who say YouTube has an inherently left-wing bias others say YouTube has a right wing but whatever YouTube's bias is towards corporatism and profit yes that's fundamentally what it is and but as a company they have a left wing bars I don't know that

► 00:56:38

in what sense well in the sense that the woman is the CEO of YouTube as talked about a pretty openly like the fact that she doesn't what was it that she had gotten into what she oh well first of all was the the James de more thing you know she's talking about the Google memo and she was talking about how it was incredibly damaging the damaging damaging stereotypes against women which it just wasn't it's not accurate is Home Depot a right-wing company because the CEO supports Trump that's a good question I'm basing it on that they're a part of Facebook and Facebook is pretty clearly left wing with every Facebook or Google+ our Google therefore our Google I'm at Google Ok Google is a very very left-wing group and it's all Silicon Valley which is almost entirely left wing biased so I think we have to distinguish between the personal political biases of Silicon Valley entrepreneurs and the broader place that goo

► 00:57:38

has in the sort of corporate sphere hmm Google is part of the group of huge multinational corporations that lobbies for particular tax policy to avoid paying taxes legally that is not a particularly left-wing thing to do Google is part of the large tech companies that in order to avoid serious regulation of their businesses have come up with this idea of regulating themselves okay which I know is a topic self-regulation that's come up before on your program in a variety of ways so those are not left wing things and if you want to make the case that as a company it has a left-wing politics in the outward facing world you have to have something more than just a lot of their Engineers live in Palo Alto and are hipsters who go to coffee shop what do you think I think that in terms of the place that it occupies

► 00:58:38

then the economic system we have they are not very different from all of the large corporations that are pushing against regulation pushing for ways to avoid taxes period so in terms of economic decisions yeah I mean listen if if we want to talk about how the personal politics of the employees translate to policy we can do that but we need to be able to make some specific claims about how it does what I'm saying is we know the way in which the structure that Google is a part of leads to it advocating for things that are center-right corporatist capitalist the status quo of tax shelters Havens and not paying taxes regulating ourselves etc etc well that's what's interesting about this Crowder thing is they're ultimately the decision was to allow him to have his freedom to post videos on there but the punitive aspect of it is they're going to reduce

► 00:59:38

ability or eliminate his ability to make money from it well I should say reduce right because he could couldn't he put videos put ads up in his video yeah I know you can ads sure so like we want one thing that I do is we kind of split off the ad sales for my show into an ad agency and we're doing ad sales not just for my show but for other shows as well and those include ad placements that are not like the pre-roll ads on YouTube it's the host is actually talking about a product or whatever it's a really you know live read sort of thing unbox therapy does a lot of that hmm yeah that's where I first saw those he does some pretty extensive ones okay so of course you can do that and yeah there's nothing so he can do that but he can't just collect Revenue like I'm I assume he's been doing before he has a significant number of followers I think his his YouTube subscribers or more than three and a half million it's like it's very high yeah more than me and Dave just

► 01:00:38

his income Right comes out of YouTube

► 01:00:42

and this is their decision based on his his way of talking about Carlos Mesa

► 01:00:50

that's that's what happened yeah yeah I mean so what are the concerns to me it's not that he didn't violate terms and conditions like I said I think he pretty clearly did the concerns to me are is YouTube only going to even look into these circumstances or instances when there is a public outcry the answer is probably yes because why would they look into stuff nobody's paying attention to what seems like they change their decision based on public outcry based on Carlos cabezas reaction in their initial decision I happen to think their initial decision was the wrong one but I have a sort of broader concern here which is about the fairness of the application and also the distinguishing between content that is promoting whatever falls under any of our definitions of hateful or whatever content and those who are fighting against it so is it because he mentioned his sexual orientation and that he called him a list be little

► 01:01:50

we're or whatever you call them or queer Mexican and if he just called him a fucking idiot and he received the exact same amount of hate would you still think that that was a good move no I mean I think that it would not fall under what they are now claiming is the justification for the demonization it would be different because it would have the same result the only difference would be they wouldn't be attacking his sexual orientation specifically because of crowd that's the only difference

► 01:02:20

it's policing speech you know I really is here's so who gets to decide if not the private businesses what their rules are that's where the real question comes up right Tulsi gabbard believes that it's a First Amendment issue and she believes that everyone should have the freedom of expression and then as long as you're not doing anything illegal you're not putting anyone to Danger by giving up their address or doxxing them or something along those lines or oat making overt physical threats right that you should be allowed to do that because that's what the freedom of the speech is all about and freedom of speech when you eliminate social media in this country is your your freedom is basically as yelling yelling out in public yeah you're in we're in this weird place it's a weird culture as a culture it's unprecedented really in terms of the waters were navigating right now there's a couple different things to so I like the principal like my principle is we do almost no moderation on any of our platforms that my program is on

► 01:03:20

only thing that I tell my team is if you see something that really seems to be illegal it's calling for violence It Whatever these are we have a very very high bar before we will remove anything and quite frankly we're just too busy what do you mean by that I'm so confused like who's not your videos whose videos yeah on a so if we find out that on our videos someone is posting endless comment so in the comments and the comments in common my personal view is if it's not illegal I just just let it all be there yes that's my personal view that's a great principle to have well we don't touch them we leave them alone even though we get accused of it but the the question is YouTube at one point in time had thrown out there that they were going to make people responsible for the things that were in their comments I think we remember that but it didn't ultimately think they backed out of it very quickly when they realized that places like yours right which like your average video gets how many thousands of comments a lot and many of them anti-semitic and how would you yeah and how would you even be able to look at all those I mean you would have to

► 01:04:20

24/7 monitoring them because you've also got people that are watching your videos from overseas at all times the night yep so I think that the principle of only only illegal content will be removed is great that's that's my personal principle however I think that there is no serious case to be made that a private company can't say these are our terms of service and if you want to I mean it's sort of almost a conservative principle right the idea that unless illegal things are going on we are not going to tell a business how it is that that it should be run and that's where I think a lot of right-wingers start to stumble on this issue because they're calling for a very invasive form of government regulation they're calling for the government to step in and even break up these organizations have gotten too large and but you're hearing that from the left as well yeah well I think there's a difference there's a difference though between Elizabeth Warren saying we should separate the social platform

► 01:05:20

this book from the ad sales revenue generating piece of it that's one thing that falls under antitrust that's different than saying the government should come in and it should tell anybody who runs a social network that you can't even you can't do anything unless the content is illegal because there are Financial considerations right I mean there's lots of content that would not be illegal but it would make a platform a video platform like YouTube not financially viable because advertisers would see it and they say oh we're not going near that right so I have a very hard time taking what is a very authoritarian perspective that the government should come in and say this is how social networks should be run now if you want to change the law here's the way it could be done if you want to change the law and argue that these platforms have gotten so big that they represent more of a Town Square so to speak then okay maybe you could pass a law that changes how they would be regulated but that's

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typically the type of stuff the right is against because it is more regulation it is more regulation but it's regulation to keep a private company from regulating against free speech to see what I'm saying it's it's a sneaky kind of Regulation it's a regulation that's enforcing the First Amendment and the people's ability to freely Express themselves if we're admitting or if we're agreeing that we are entering into this new world yes where this is that's my position as it is a town square and I feel like everybody should be able to communicate the really unfortunate unsavory aspect of it is when someone gets harassed like Carlos Mesa was because of this where people are sending him all these homophobic tweets and all the enemies getting text messages and all this shit that's that's the unsavory and unfortunate aspect of it and how do you stop that I don't know how you stop it I don't know exactly how you stop it but I think it would be useful for I mean one thing is when does it platform get big enough in your mind that it would qualify for this like town

► 01:07:20

Square designation well for sure YouTube let's talk about that one because that's the one we're on mean fuckin goddamn it it's huge okay gigantic so are there other types of businesses through which communication happens that you think should be regulated in the same way that's not really clear so I'll give an example okay if you start regularly sending people via UPS similar things to some of the content that exists on YouTube and UPS says we're getting reports that you're sending people harassing stuff we don't want you as a customer here's a quote here's a question though isn't there a difference between someone sending something to a physical address and someone sending something just let's say to you when your social media apps are on the third page of your phone and you have to swipe all the way over to get him and open it up and you have to read them if you want to find them well you don't necessarily have to read them there's a difference in a practical sense but I guess the question is would we want the government would you

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really want the government to enforce for telephone companies if you are harassing getting harassing texts and you report it and report it that's a different thing I think I think what it's coming to your phone and the phone is ringing I think that's a another step it's another step towards invasive it's a big gray area yes it's the phone ringing is it a phone call was that acts as a positive what's happened don't have to read that text right yeah no I feel you I guess it's the quite where I hesitate and again speaking of someone from the left who believes regulation of businesses is an important thing I would want to be really sure about how exactly it is that the government would step in and mandate essentially that their view has to be listened to over the terms of service that a private company would wish to have yes I feel like when you give people a gun they start looking for targets and that is a very common thing if you give people the ability to censor and you can give people the ability to sensor based

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their political ideology or based on what they feel is offensive or other people don't it's a slippery slope and I think that that can that can lead to All Sorts look that woman what is your name again the one who tried to get me fired Amy siskind imagine her being in charge of a social media platform she tried to get you fired from Boston College for something that was incredibly polite right that is what I'm talking about is they're very action that very same type of thinking that she tried to impose on you that's what I'm worried about well and they're worried about people that are really strictly trying to promote their ideologies and what they think is okay and not okay and it's very slippery because there's a lot of weird people out there that believe a lot of weird things and want other people to conform to those weird things and we sort of have to decide like that's why I'm bringing up this Crowder thing like do I think that what he said was good no it's not nice to call someone a little less be queer it's not nice its kind of mean you know and especially when that guy was

► 01:10:20

even engaging with him but he's making fun of him he's a comedy show he's mocking them so the question becomes like when when is that mocking considered homophobic and when is it just ribbing right that's his position his position is that it's just ribbing this is the problem with a discussion that is only about the principles so like a lot of our conversation for the last 15 minutes has been what is our principle about what types of business regulation is okay for the government to do and is not okay or when we talk about Free Speech what should do we have a principle of anything short of illegal content versus something that is more strict mmm the reality is that it's there's a more gray area yeah we're trying to sort of regulate the way people communicate with each other so it's not it's like if someone said that to someone in a bar a cop would not arrest them like yeah you listen you little queer you know that would be like oh that guy's an asshole but the bar would be perfectly within their legal right to say we don't we don't want you

► 01:11:20

here you're making our customers uncomfortable and nobody would say that it would be against the law for the bar to say you gotta go that's a good point if they were doing it to their face but what if he was in a corner talking about this guy that wasn't there and he was saying yeah so he's talking about antifa this list be little Mexican queer if you came along and decided to kick the guy out of the bar then it would I mean listen at some bars if you go into the corner and you yell about a listview Mexican queer they're going to ask you to leave and it's still would not be illegal and the bar would still not be doing anything right but that's a bar right that's a private business where people are physically there yes isn't there a difference between that and something like YouTube which again Falls more in line with like a Town Square maybe that's what we need to revisit because so much human communication is now happening across these platforms I would imagine most of it or most of it when we need to maybe stop drawing this arbitrary distinction that in person is a completely different thing than over the internet I mean maybe it's not increasingly maybe it's more the same

► 01:12:20

yeah some torn here right on one side I say well it seems like they still allow him to have his freedom of expression because he's still on YouTube he still is able to upload his show on YouTube he will have to find other ways to make money sure so one part of me looks at it that way and no one has a right to monetize on YouTube right right so in a sense they haven't violated his first amendment rights because he's still able to express himself but then you go as a company they've made a punitive decision to eliminate his ability or is radically reduces ability to make an income off of their platform that seems like and I'm not supporting that they did it but that seems more reasonable as a decision right to say we're going to demonetised you that seems more reasonable

► 01:13:16

but the problem is there's no Alternatives there's nothing remotely like YouTube to over there's an alternative to YouTube for him to regain that same level of monetization yes or four people that share his Viewpoint and share his ideology and share his positions there's no right-wing YouTube's my point and there's this like this I would challenge the idea that YouTube is left-wing I mean in terms of its enforcing its policies how so I mean they just this just this particular issue but this isn't this isn't a left-wing how is this a left-wing enforcement I mean they think it is because Carlos Mesa is Progressive and because the the argument that he was making is a very left-wing Progressive argument and this is what Crowder was going after he was going after the argument in the process of going after the argument he mocked his sexuality and his appearance I can assure you if it was focused merely on how much of a problem antifa is this would not have happened I mean I think we both oh yeah for sure yeah

► 01:14:16

no it's all about mocking the guys sexual orientation and looks that's worth Carlos Maza were a gay Republican and the exact same thing happened do you think the outcome would have been different yes why I just don't think people will be interested oh well that's a dip up but so that gets to the real Crux of it which is my real concern with this is YouTube only getting involved in even publicly saying what they're doing about a channel right when it becomes very public and it starts to have the possibility of impacting their bottom line and brand saying yes is this is too hot and we're getting out well in that sense what Carlos did once it was revealed that YouTube was not going to take action was very effective absolutely mean he started tweeting like crazy and people jumped on board he connected it to the lbgt movement and and then it became this thing mean the other side of this is mean I don't know if we even want to go into identity politics so to speak but there

► 01:15:16

has I've read some comments on some of the few articles that have been written about this that are saying that this is effectively YouTube and forcing a defense of identity politics so to speak and I think that that's just again opening up the door to the the incredibly broad application of that term I done called I don't even really fully understand that but I don't know and I don't even know if that's a path we want to go down to talk about like the identity politics component of what's going on with along just fine we should Define what you mean by the identity politics owner of it I mean listen so I guess in order to defined it Define it I

► 01:15:53

it would be good to point out that I have been critical of quote identity Politics on the left in a very limited way that I think it is actually damaging while at the same time recognizing that identity is a really important thing to consider when we think about sort of how the world should be organized so like for your audience who may not know when identity politics is used you know like a like a knife to enforce that because of someone's identity their opinion supersedes and is the opinion that is the valid one over everybody else because of membership in some kind of group I'm against that I think that's extremely destructive it would be very incorrect to believe though that identity doesn't play a role and that we shouldn't understand how one's identity might make us think differently about certain issues I mean any example would sure would make that pretty clear you know

► 01:16:53

as an immigrant to the United States do I get some privileged position to decide what policy should be over all native-born Americans because I immigrated here know that would me be me using identity Politics as like a mallet or a cudgel arriver I got it but as someone who did immigrated here we should recognize that I may have things to say about it which would be valuable and worthy and important to sort of think about that's my shore on a chore all text Will you're just not interested in the hierarchy of oppressed people I'm not interested in the oppression Olympics and I'm not interested in using identity to silence ideas that could be perfectly good coming from someone who is not a member or checking a certain box exact nor am I I strongly believe in the individual and I think it's one of the most important parts of a collective group of human beings like a country that we recognize that we're all different and there's a lot of weirdness amongst us but we're individuals and I like to treat people based on who they are not what classification they fall under Now do

► 01:17:53

you think that that bad version of identity politics that I mentioned is a big problem on the left or not a big problem I'm curious I think it's certainly a problem but I think it's a vocal minority problem that's what I think I think if you just regular people that are on the left that are working jobs and having families and doing their hobbies and they just have left wing ideas I don't think the vast majority of hold those positions I think those positions are things that people use as Revenue I mean not as Revenue but it's like they get points from it you know they get points from certain types of behavior that they support certain types of thinking that they support and it lets you know you got woke social justice points and then we agree yeah I mean I gen I asked because I genuinely didn't know I mean I've heard them talk about identity politics a dangerous number though in terms of college campuses when you look at like what happened in Evergreen State yeah Brett Weinstein it it's very disruptive

► 01:18:53

no I mean I do think that it's disproportionately a proper I think it's a small problem like you're saying I think a lot of the problem exists in the college campus setting but I mean even at Boston College you know I had sort of maybe been incorrectly indoctrinated into the idea that this was really a problem everywhere on college campuses and I had an incident the details of which wouldn't be appropriate to talk about but with a student when I taught at Boston College that because of the circumstances and the identities involved I was ready for it to go into this is going to be resolved the wrong way on the basis of the toxic identity politics I'm hearing is existing on college campuses and it was not it was the exact opposite so I think the same way that when you look at Yelp reviews people who had a bad experience are way more likely to go and write about it yes these individual stories get way more attention than the percentage of the problem that they represent I believe you're probably correct about that

► 01:19:53

but when you see videos like Nick christakis getting just shouted down at Yale by a group of students and they supported the students and that kind of shit you say well it is real it does exist it's real it exists I think that sensible people on the left like me call it out but I want to be careful imagine that you had someone from Cato on the show which is sort of like a traditional conservative or American Enterprise Institute maybe he's like a better example and a lot of the conversation was about getting them to talk about her denounced the alt-right for example yeah I'm sure they would do it but how much should a EI denounced the alt-right when that's like a different thing that there's an example yeah it's a very good analogy yeah I think we often times are responding to this very vocal minority yes and those are the people that are most invested in getting these ideas push through and they're they're all it's also people that you know for lack of a better

► 01:20:53

turn the probably mentally ill and I only mean mentally ill in terms of like have like legitimate diseases but in terms of their thought patterns are probably obsessive I mean I've had friends that were especially friends that were heavily involved in this kind of stuff before and it was very damaging to their mental health this type of stuff being politics being woke left-wing shout out at people attack people politics okay but I mean realized somewhere on the wind and then one of them my friend Jamie kills teen was they turned on him and then you know devastated his life and he realized along the way like oh Jesus Christ like what was I doing like I was checking my Twitter every five seconds and insulting people left and right and attacking people just to get everybody say yeah go get him and you know it's showing everybody how woke I am and how Progressive I am and it becomes a weird sort of a point system like you're trying to score points you're trying to gain favor with your party there's a lot of that I think it's really important

► 01:21:53

though so there's people on the left and right who get pulled into Political weakness whether it's I'm now tea party in 2010 people get sucked into tea party on the right and Tifa whatever these are all groups with different sort of followings they're not all the same whatever yeah I do think that there is a difference between getting extremely passionate about the idea that everybody should have access to just basic Healthcare then getting extremely passionate about the idea that we need to go out of our way to shut down every abortion clinic in the country I think that there's just there's a difference sure so I don't want to participate in a false equivalency between well you got very far left and very far right people and they're the same and you've got Center left and center right and they're the same it's just two sides of the same coin like obviously I have a perspective that is based on my politics I'm glad to debate any of these issues with anybody who wants to on the merits but I don't want to make the false

► 01:22:53

equivalency I mean listen when you look at Anti-Defamation League numbers for example the vast majority of of hate incidents in the United States are coming from the right we could talk about other ways that the left is active we could talk about what it means or how things should be categorized but that's the reality and so I want to make sure I don't play a false equivalency game my audience would crush me if I did that and one but I think it's just wrong I think it's wrong to do that I don't know I think spare it out I think you're right there and I also think that these false equivalency kind of conversations or their ridiculous because each individual conversation about each individual issue deserves its own discussion yes and to say what about this or what about that those what about isms those are the the death of any real rational discussion because they go on forever they're gone forever there's no I mean it's like scroll this is why scrolling Twitter

► 01:23:53

Leslie is a problem because there's really no end you could always scroll a little more to it to the end right yeah I mean the it's the new tweets are coming fast it's the same with a lot of those crime was ever done that just scrolled until their phone died just charge it wake up in the morning and just scroll down all day how long does it take I think you wouldn't because the new content appears fast right because the algorithm yeah but you still never run out now just keep going no there's a few things I don't know if this would be interesting to go into but there's a few things that I found have been somewhat successful in conversations with people who really disagree with me and at least like lowering the temperature a little bit and getting people to maybe engage in a good-faith way one of them is how do you think I came to my position mmm so you might be for total free market for profit health care I am for a system where the government is more involved and even if you can't pay you get care

► 01:24:53

before we even start if I say how do you think I arrived at my position yeah that has been pretty useful another example is I think this came from Peter bogosian who I think you've had on yes the de feasibility question which is what evidence if I presented it to you would bring you over to my side I'm not saying I have that evidence or that it exists but give me a framework as to what is keeping you from seeing this my way because sometimes that exists the person just doesn't know about it huh those are two tools that I have found super useful in trying to make some Headway with people who are hyper partisan and very escalated and with a lot of these issues yeah that makes sense yeah it's very difficult to have good faith conversations with people when you disagree with them you know and you have to have discipline and you have to have some sort of a sense of self yeah and you have to know how to be calm and kind you know the the descent into insults and dunking on

► 01:25:53

people as one of the one of the reasons why I at the beginning of the conversation I was saying that I've one of the things I enjoy about your your YouTube videos is your very reasonable rational person and you don't get crazy and animated and insulting and I think there's we need more of that because I think even though you're not going to convert some people there's just a certain section of the population that disagrees with you that's just going to write but there's a significant number that I ought to go hey this David pakman guys he's reasonable he's making a lot of sense he's intelligent well my goal is and I think that it's sort of working and that we have a lot of trump supporters who are paid subscribers to my show a lot we have some other taking notes maybe they are to the boss but my my goal is my goal is yeah that would I mean that that would be an interesting day if I wake up and Trump has responded to one of my videos about him what would you do I think it'd be a good day well that's what Colbert did that was how funny was that one Colbert was on TVs

► 01:26:53

Donald yeah how did you not know that you shouldn't respond to me right yeah yeah that's rule number one it's an important one unless you want to create a shitstorm of a very certain you know my goal is I don't pretend to be neutral I think neutrality is almost always false because on most issues people are not indifferent I mean neutral is another way of saying in different you could be conflicted a neutral you could be conflicted in neutral but I try to at least be objective and transparent in how I arrived at what I believe so you can disagree with my conclusion you can even come to me and tell me the facts I've used to reach the conclusion or incomplete or wrong but I'm completely genuine and how I arrived there and I think that that is why we have some mean yeah there's obviously if you look at YouTube comments there are right Wingers that watch my show but choosing to support it financially as a different thing and I get emails from conservatives who say I don't agree with your conclusions but I do find that you're at least reasoning through the issues in a way that resonates with me and I

► 01:27:53

to support the fact that you're doing that's outstanding that's a huge Victory the really is Insurance in my eyes is in this day and age I think this is the most polarized time I can remember as a 51 year old man looking back at you know my history of paying attention to social issues and the way we communicate with each other and just partisan attitudes that people seem to have I don't I mean I think it's probably because of trump that's a giant part of it but it's also just a sign of the times of social media I think it's in part engineered by the algorithms at Facebook and Twitter and all these other social media companies utilize and it's also been engineered by bath bad faith participants and people that are actually manipulating it I don't know if you've paid any attention to Sam Harris had a fantastic podcast with and we had one with her as well Renee duress te when they'd arrest a analyzed

► 01:28:53

all of the various accounts that the IRA had created with the internet research agency that was responsible for all of these fake accounts that people thought were black lives matter accounts or Pro Southern secession accounts or all these different accounts that were very polarizing and are arguing with other people that these were just Russians that were working for this organization that was specifically trying to start chaos they were specifically trying to start arguments and when you you see that and then that's a factor that's a giant factor that kind of shit is a factor and that that is sort of become part of the sport of social media has been arguing absolutely I don't do it I don't engage but I do go on Facebook sometimes and someone makes an abortion post and I just watch the chaos like oh my God yeah it's in or anything having anything to do with Trump or anything having anything

► 01:29:53

to do with the Second Amendment or anything that has anything to do with though the wall or immigration so I don't know that people are actually in larger disagreements and they were previously I think that yes Trump has course in the language and the way in which its now acceptable to talk about a lot of these things that's number one I think the social media algorithms like you're pointing out reward the most extreme and polarizing comments and reactions in a never-ending feedback loop where the most polarizing initial tweet generates a more respect more responses than less polarizing tweets and then the sub responses that are most polarizing and an aggressive do the exact same thing and this never-ending feedback loop I think it's all those things but I don't know that people are having bigger disagreements than in times past I just think that their public in a different way well there's more disagreements because people have more opportunity to disagree so they have more opportunity to engage particularly talking about people that are addicted

► 01:30:53

their phones and is coming from a guy who's his fucking phone for hours a day right I'd like to think that one hour that is productive but I know that three hours of his me staring at butts on Instagram look at muscle cars and watch more crazy videos and then how much are you on like a computer I don't know I didn't I don't have that that data right but it's not as much and the good thing about it is most of my bullshit I'm doing on the phone most of my computer work unless I'm laying in bed I just watch embarrassingly enough I watch YouTube videos on pool that's what I watch Real I go to bed yeah that's interesting well I play pool yeah so I watch Like professional pool matches before I go to bed because it's harming yeah it's relaxing and I analyze positions and what's interesting I do the same thing with chess that's what I there's like chess streamers yeah - and it's not similar yeah it's cool you can kick back and sort of its you're engaged but it's nothing crazy and it's also kind of stimulating in an intellectual way right yeah and it's different than politics yes

► 01:31:53

SSS like on weekends when people you know like my mom will you know want to talk to me about politics and I'm just like I did this all week mom yeah your mom watch your show she does and she watches other shows and my family's super political so really I saw on the weekend it's Saturday I'm right in the middle of my break period because they left wing oh yeah thank God of course I mean if they were dodging could you around some mean Dad calling you out what the fuck is wrong with you David I might have had to D feu de feu mmm yeah yeah anyway anyway indeed I think that there's more opportunity as we were saying too distant to disagree with people more opportunity to argue and in those more opportunities you're seeing more conflict and I think more polarization and I think again the social media algorithms and all the other nonsense that gets I think there's I'd really do believe that the the feeling that I get but it also might be because a big part of my job is being on the internet so I'm

► 01:32:53

be more engaged with it our view looks are use it a little bit but I think so in practice it Matt let's imagine that the disagreements are equal to what they've always been but there's more opportunities to disagree and the algorithm favors more escalated disagreement than rational conversation the effect is that you might meet someone with whom you have 80% in common in terms of your political views but the circumstances in which you engage with that person are going to be on the 20% that you don't so it makes it seem as though you just have very little common ground with anybody right because the 80% agreement becomes background and the social media platforms the debates happening on YouTube elsewhere are focused only on like the most divisive fraction of one's entire political views and that's I think what the problem is mmm but it makes sense because most people agree that I don't know gas stations I mean just to pick something innocuous most people agree

► 01:33:53

it's good to have a regulatory system that makes sure that when you think you've pumped five gallons of gas you've gotten five gallons of gas yes it's so uncontroversial that nobody's going to talk about it like it makes sense that the focus is going to be on the disagreements where it's damaging is then when you meet people in real life and it's hard to relate or even be in the same room because only those differences are sort of like played upper right yes yes yes yeah yeah that that conflict gets highlighted you have conflict bias yeah yeah I don't know where I see this going that's one of the more interesting things about particularly with social media and like things when you come to this crowd or situation I don't know where this is going because I didn't know this was ever going to be a thing I had never really considered that there was going to be some digital Town Square that we're all going to be enjoying whether it's Twitter or YouTube or whatever it is that might even need regular yeah that might even need

► 01:34:53

Elation but getting back to the crowded thing the issue that you so you agree with it in the sense that he was mocking this person's sexual orientation and appearance I agree with the assertion that YouTube's terms of service as written were violated on the basis that he was singling out an individual and the characteristics that that individual was being targeted with or spoken about were sexual orientation in terms that that the terms of service say is not allowed is that different in your opinion then someone singling something out for what you believe is their mental incompetency well mental and compact do you mean that they're ignorant or that they're that they're mentally ill or cognitively limited cognitively limited mocking their

► 01:35:53

the think walking their intelligence mocking their decisions mocking their the way they talk and then encouraging other people to do the same thing and then that person gets harassed based on their intelligence based on their performance on particular YouTube videos and conversations and there's active harassers there's people that do that is there a difference between say what Sam Cedar does to Dave Rubin what is Sam do Dave Rubin he has I don't know that I've seen that video dozens of videos don't say that video he has dozens of videos where he's just dunking on Dave Rubin so I mean II have some as well I believe that they are substantive that's my view is that my videos about Dave Rubin or substantive I really I don't really watch any left-wing stuff because I want to try to isolate myself enough to make sure that what I'm saying are my ID is unique and that I'm not taking them so I'm Sam's a friend of moment comic and I know that's interesting and complex do that I don't know but if there's some specific examples we could comment about them but

► 01:36:52

I think that they're to your first question there is a difference between going after someone for sexual orientation right then going after them for the fact that they say things that are wrong or don't know stuff until you're making fun of someone who has an actual handicap of some kind some kind of you know limited cognitive limitation that would be a disability of some kind then you are mocking someone for a disability but the resulting effect of the harassment the the see this is what I was getting at before with Crowder like what Crowder said was one thing but one of the things that Carlos Mesa was just discussing was what the people that had watch Crowder what they were doing how they were going after him as if see that and that is a real discussion like what what happens when you say something about someone and then your fans agree and then they take action which I didn't see that in the Steven Crowder decision that the reaction was part of

► 01:37:52

YouTube's evaluation now I may just have missed that but I didn't see YouTube say that part of the calculation had to do with what other people were doing I don't think they did say that I don't think they would but I think Carlos Mesa did say that it was one of the things that he was talking about this endless assault that he's experienced well he's right to call it deplorable I think we would agree with that I think your question is more about whether you choose who's responsible for it was responsible for ya these Anonymous people that can just lash out at someone and insult them out of nowhere ultimately they are responsible those people are those people those people respond agree however so there's this term stochastic terrorism I don't know if you're familiar with no I'm not stuck a stick terrorism is the idea that if you have a big enough audience and you go and every day you're talking about someone should really do something about a particular politician you're doing it every day you're doing every day at a certain point

► 01:38:52

a large enough audience in enough repetition of that and the fact that there's like a distribution of people's emotional states cognitive capacity Etc it is statistically probable that someone from that audience is going to go and try to do something about whoever it is that you're targeting that individual who has the show and is hammering on this person day after day after day they're not going to be legally responsible for that person from their audience who went and did something aw there's no way that you're going to hold them legally responsible under the current legal system that we have but you could argue that it is irresponsible in some way not to understand that your consequences have actions of course the person who goes and does the violent Act is the primary person who is responsible right but as long as you're not calling out for that act how do we make this distinction that someone is encouraging that act or someone is at least inspiring that at their judgment

► 01:39:52

I mean listen I can go on my show and I can speak in vague terminology or specific terminology you know imagine that there's a local business that I don't like I could go on my show and I could say this business did this and I need everybody in my audience to show up there and to make it impossible to get in and patronize that business that's very clearly on one side of the gray area I could instead say you know there's a business I could say the type of business but I not not name it if it's a small enough Town people would know exactly what business I'm talking about and I really don't like the way I was treated there and if only there was some way that someone could do something about it the effect could be the exact same amount right I don't know how you measure when it's on one side yeah it's like you're right you could somehow another remove your

► 01:40:44

your you could somehow or another make it so that it's yeah I'm agreeing with you yeah you could remove your responsibility for the action of some sort of what's up just got interesting I'm I was just I was trying to find a tweet from Oz about him sending her asking people to flag Crowder's videos did you give the one where he asked people to go assault people with milkshakes so eat them at every turn you just tweeted an hour ago or at 12:30 that to clarify this is responding to Carlos Maza to clarify in order to restate monetization on his channel he will need to remove the link to his t-shirts

► 01:41:21

so it's the figs t-shirt yeah oh well that's all he has to do he specifically asked about that and they respond it's like us to do wow as well using that's pretty pretty straightforward it's pretty straightforward yeah the shirt stupid but you know he's a comedian I mean that's what Crowder's doing and his doing the thing about Mesa he's mocking him for his appearance but Carlos Mesa is specifically encouraged people to throw milkshakes at people that disagree with him and to harass them publicly and humiliate them so one thing it doesn't justify the other know it doesn't help that but that is more egregious how fast can you people to assault people and asking people to physically humiliate people in person in my opinion is more egregious I don't agree with mocking his physical appeal well it's physical appearances that's just what it is you know but the sexual orientation aspect of it it's like yeah I get it I get it's not it's not nice how far

► 01:42:20

you think so this is just a comedian thing goes because I hear that a lot in just excusing things that are simply trying to do comedy right so he's trying to make fun is he yeah hold on but make comedy and making fun of someone are two different things like I don't do comedy but I will sometimes make fun of things people say right but he's doing it to be funny he's making fun of things specifically to be funny and sometimes you know when you do that you go too far you cross lines I genuinely did not realize that crowded as a comedy show oh yeah yeah he's so when he so when Joe is a comedy show wow yeah a lot of it is funny he does some funny shit he really does whether you agree with them or disagree with him he's done some hilarious bits I genuine time I'm reacting in real time because I had no idea he has his bed he does about this French socialists he puts on a wig and pretends to be this different person he's pretending to be a transgender person he pretended to he's done a bunch of these infiltration videos will go into these ridiculous organizations and ask them questions but it's very

► 01:43:20

much a comedy show dressing up like a trans persons funny it is if you're funny out if I'm good I mean mrs. Doubtfire it wasn't that funny and that's what he was doing he was dressing up as a woman he was dressing up as a woman right he was dressing up as a woman and that's a great movie I agree with you there there's some funny shit and yeah I guess look how many times in In Living Color did they dress up like women there's there's some humor to someone who is a man who's dressing up like a woman sure that can that can be and I shouldn't comment specifically on crowder doing it if I hadn't seen it now he's got some funny shit he does you know and I'll take shit for that for saying that it's funny makes me laugh that's why I'm staying quiet yeah I know I understand I get it I don't agree with him you know constantly going on and on about this guy being queer are calling him a list be little queer but he's doing it to try to be funny so the question is when can you do that to be funny and apparently with YouTube you can do that and be funny as long as you guys don't have that t-shirt yeah it's just

► 01:44:20

interest that's actually even that's even weirder now it's weird that they just if he removes a T-shirt and Link a link to the T-shirt oh he can still sell it he just can't link to it from YouTube I think that's what they're saying that's so minor that it's hard to I mean it is what it isn't because it's sort of an encouraging people to buy it and then you to bits say well if you have an add-on that then you're encouraging homophobic behavior and we can allow that with our monetization policy I mean it's minor in the context of everything else that's wrapped up in this yeah it might be an important fun you know revenue-generating t-shirt I mean I think so much of this again these disagreements on issues it comes down to what you and I were talking about before that if two people are in a room together 95% of what they're talking about you're going to agree on when someone's making a video on someone if they just to say like fucking David pakman man I here's my deal with that guy and then you just ranting thing is I hate his fucking neck I don't like his shirt and his face is stupid when people do stuff like that

► 01:45:20

it's just it's a it's a terrible way to communicate because its first of all you'd have to be a real asshole to say most of the things that people say about things in their dunking on them and in person you have to be you have to be a bad person yeah so you know the person's going to see it so you're just deciding I'm going to be a bad person but to pretend I'm not a bad person because I'm going to do it in a way where they're not in the room so I'm just going to shit all over them give them my real opinion sure but it's not like a real it's not like you and I are at dinner and you like you know the fuck this guy and then that's that's how people talk yeah but when you're doing that but you're doing it you're broadcasting it I think we're all learning in this process of doing podcasts and video blogs on the stuff we're all learning that you're not alone you are doing this and you're saying it in a way that that person's going to see in the same could be applied to Dave Rubin and Sam Cedar

► 01:46:20

knocking on them all the time it's kind of the same thing and Michael Roberts as well it's the same sort of thing there that that's what they're doing yeah and they're saying things that they wouldn't say if he was there in person right but they're okay we're all guilty they were sitting around having lunch together talking shit about some stupid thing that he said the night before yeah that's fine and I don't think I mean whether or not you would say something in person doesn't tell us whether it's a fair or unfair critique true I think it's fair to say I try to avoid strict at homonyms I will I mean listen we're all trying to get it build an audience right so at a certain point yes like I will pick titles that I think are the most interesting titles to get people to watch the thing or whatever or I'll use vocabulary that I might not use in person but at least what I'm trying to do is make it as substantive as possible and to sort of like justify how I came to my conclusions yes that part of it in in-person conversations usually will not lend itself to like screaming or violence or whatever if that part is the focus

► 01:47:20

I completely agree with you on that yeah I think we'd be better off if we did try to communicate with but when you're doing comedy that goes out the window it does but even comedy aside I agree with the principle communicate Battle of ideas Marketplace of ideas very very big Ideas we all want to hear about and what are the best ideas in let's rank the ideas there are people whose views are so extreme that you can't really bring them to the table as reasonable negotiating partners for figuring something out right like Richard Spencer sure or even I mean okay imagine Farrakhan Louis Farrakhan who have spoken out about many times imagine that we want to figure out what the tax rate should be something that politicians have to do all the time if you have a group of people who believe that we need a 25 percent flat tax and a group of people who want you know like an escalating progressive tax that gets as high as 70% on income over 10 million whatever right like fill it all then all those people are going to be able to have a conversation

► 01:48:20

action if someone comes in who says any taxes that the government collects are a form of slavery how do you integrate that into the conversation about how to set tax rates

► 01:48:34

hmm you can't write yeah so all of this stuff you know there's this new movement now which I think is great about long-form conversations going in-depth figuring out what our disagreements are like I'm for all of it I'm absolutely for all of it I think you do it I do it I do it and I put your picture okay but where I do think that there's like a lack of of pragmatic reality to it is some people's ideas are so extreme that they can't in any sensible way be incorporated into an actual good faith discussion of how Society should be organized that is the problem with having conversations and scale right and that's the problem with Twitter and with YouTube that you're dealing with millions and millions and millions of human beings and when you have that broad spectrum of humans you're going to have people on the far ends of both sides and at a certain point there a decision has to be made about who actually gets to participate in the decision making conversation it's great for everybody to have a voice on taxation on Twitter

► 01:49:33

but imagine if there was a significant portion of the of our elected officials who straight up think taxes are slavery I just don't know how that becomes integrated into a decision about tax policy right I think the the argument would be that bad ideas should be combated with good ideas not with silencing someone and that when you do silence someone you just sort of create this blockade where the idea builds up behind it and then the opposition to your perspective builds up and then people start picking teams and picking sides and and I honestly think that that's something that's going to be going on right now with this whole crowd are Crowder Vox thing I think people are going to pick sides and they fucking love it people love a good conflict to get into there's a lot of people in the cubicles right now that are weighing in and and firing up and there's people that want to dock some again and these people want to infiltrate his Facebook and it's twit that's what people do yeah you're dealing with million car what is Crowder have 3.5 3.8 million something like that

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I mean I think what you have to also remember is it's not just the reactions that are sort of like tailored to continue the escalation I mean in the end maybe Crowder personally in his personal life does refer to people he perceives to be gay or who are gay as queers I don't know I don't or he uses the word fags I have no idea but he didn't use that word the T-shirt has the asterisk I guess it's a goof it's actually as a fig it doesn't have an asterisk the AutoCAD the egg mayonnaise a fig Oaks for figs it's the idea it's an I got it but okay it's a goofy joke there my point is I don't know you know any sensible person who lives in the west and has access to Media like Steven Crowder or whoever knows that the use of that language has a very specific path that and set of reactions that it's going to trigger so specifically the that shirt the shirt and crunchy

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Carlos Mazda as a queer Mexican or whatever whatever the phrase is see that that's a weird one the with the queer one is a weird one because it's what it's with LBGTQ like what is like here's a good one right National Association for the advancement of colored people okay and double AC p-- you can't call people colored people sure but that organization was named a long time ago short and it's more acronyms than anything else at this I understand but it's not right you both we both know what the acronym would the individual letters or words in that acronym are I think the word queer is not a derogatory word but it is the or it cannot be depending on how she go you fucking queer yeah right sure I mean listen it's the same way with Joo right right right right I'm in a family thing and it's a bunch of Jews or whatever that's a word that can be used in a way that if someone shows up if Richard Spencer shows up or one of his followers

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and goes to a bar mitzvah and talks about this room full of Jews the word is the same word less we're talking about two very different things that's a good point but should he be allowed to say this room full of Jews allowed I mean it's not illegal no it's not illegal he's our out right he is allowed but where does it like this room full of joy where does it get toxic well if Richard Spencer shows up at a bar mitzvah and yells about this room full of Jews I think it's gotten toxic yeah that's a good subject to break this stalemate of this subject not stalemate but just you know sort of and this anti-Semitism right seems to be ridiculously On The Rise and that that's stunning to me that shocked me when I lie because the internet the internet sort of exposed anti-Semitism that I didn't necessarily know existed I see at the levels that existed at I knew there was anti-semites but I didn't know there were so Brazen and over well they've gotten Brazen since January of 2017

► 01:53:33

okay I don't know that Donald Trump has created anti-semites in fact he probably hasn't well his son-in-law's choose son-in-law's Jewish his daughter converted to Judaism cetera but I think that Richard Spencer told me we know that Trump is not literally a white nationalist who is going to talk about let's take control back from the Jews but we see him as the closest thing to what we would like he talks about people from Mexico he talks about shithole countries Etc so it's just emboldened the movement it doesn't necessarily create right but people from Mexico and shithole countries that doesn't necessarily really equate with Israel now well anti-Semitism in Israel also are two totally separate things you can be against you could be against the current Israeli Administration as I am like Benjamin Netanyahu and still call out anti-Semitism against Jews in the shore dates for example or whatever I see what you're

► 01:54:33

it doesn't want is not directly linked to the other but if you're a group that already has these views and then you see a guy who opens his campaign talking about they're sending rapists and criminals but some I'm sure are good people and I don't want people coming here from shithole countries what about Norwegians whatever it's a signal yeah it's a signal and I've spoken to former KKK people some of whom are really interesting people to talk to and they know exactly why it's appealing because they see the signals in the vocabulary and the dog whistling so I think it's just brought it out into the Forefront I don't know that new anti-Semitism has necessarily been generated although it being in the Forefront probably does start to get some people kind of curious I got maybe all the problems are because of the Jews I don't know hmm it's just I guess they find groups of like-minded folks and they join along right is that the anti-semites yeah that they find them online and then you can stumble

► 01:55:33

into it where you ordinarily wouldn't be around people that are having those discussions that can happen and a lot of the people that I've talked to that got into those beliefs and then out of them said that they got in usually on a community level there was something about the community that was appealing to like gangs gangs or in the case of you know KKK and white supremacy people that had a bad home situation and they found a group that would accept them but actually they would accept them because they were white and then they got pulled into the beliefs and eventually they sort of got out of them yeah

► 01:56:09

it's just so you think the rise of it in 2017 there's more anti-Semitism or you think it's more or overt I believe it's moreover because Tremors president yeah hmm and you know groups that track these incidents like the Anti-Defamation League and others they have the data and there have been increases Mmm Yeah it's stunning to me you know you see it online so many different places now and I just don't remember seeing it before or not like that not that's you'd run into it so often or people calling people Zionist shills yeah I mean that's an important thing to talk about I mean people call me that all the time mmm and you know I feel like that is an issue where I try to speak I mean she'll to me suggests that you're saying one thing but with some kind of other agenda that you're trying to push in some way in other words you are you are being

► 01:57:08

some way deceptive about your actual intentions and what you say so I think when people call me a Zionist shill what they mean is I'm talking about one thing with the secret goal or below the surface goal of actually promoting some action by the state of Israel I think that's the idea of a shill but you know I mean I am opposed to the current prime minister in Israel I've made clear that isn't even trouble right now yeah I mean he's been in tentative trouble for a long time his wife is in trouble as well I believe but that I mean the problem is and I know that there are people on the left and right that when I say this will I mean I'm gonna get crushed from what I'm about to say sometimes when someone says Zionist shill it's related to your view on the israeli-palestinian conflict sometimes when someone says sinus shil it's cover for just wanting to insult someone for being Jewish or him anti-Semitism you got to look at every instance one by one

► 01:58:08

yeah and sometimes people just like saying things too yeah it's a popular thing to say especially they find out that you're Jewish absolutely it's like a thing yeah so thing to say it's a little weapon to use it absolutely is do you find this is sort of an abstract question but overall like doing this show and having this increased ever increased exposure do you do you enjoy it are you are you weirded out by the interactions with all the people do you feel pressure by all the comments and the do you feel like a little bit of anxiety from all the social media aspect of it I do so I enjoy the idea that people are listening to my ideas and either agreeing or disagreeing but they're considering them and then integrating it into how they figure out what they think about the world around them that's awesome I do get weirded out by sort of like safety security

► 01:59:08

dirty stuff that sometimes comes up which I try not to even like put too much attention on because I feel like it just feeds and gives people ideas and people who you know come up to me and I mean I'm more Curious to actually hear your thoughts about this come up to me and you know they may not necessarily see the world the way I see it and I'm unsure sort of like what are their intentions type of thing I mean I it gives me anxiety and it gives people that are close to me anxiety for sure yeah because your profiles just if you keep doing this you're very good at it thank you you're going to continue to get more and more popular yeah and I mean I guess it's a double-edged sword I mean I don't know like when you do a comedy show afterwards is it kind of like a free for all where people can come up and chat with you sometimes yeah and you get skittish no you don't know most people are nice I agree the vast majority of people are nice I agree they come to see you there they're usually fans and

► 02:00:08

this want to take pictures say what's up I guess it's a little different when what you do is like overtly political yes versus other areas like if you ask an actor comedian doing right things race car driver right you are in a much more conflict driven profession yeah this sense yeah I mean I have political people on like you but you know I'm not entirely engaged in politics like you guys are right yeah I don't know I mean I do worry that no matter what happens in the next few elections I don't know how we reverse the radicalization polarization effects of the social media Echo chambers that we've been talking about and I only see that as further I mean we can still accomplish good things while that's going on like I think if we elect the right people maybe we can get good things done but in parallel there is this like hyper radicalized polarized narrative that's going on and I don't see any way that that's going to turn around I wonder myself I do I and

► 02:01:08

I'm very very confused by it because I don't see any long-term solution for this other than some radical change in the way human beings communicate with each other and not that I've contemplated that and hypothesizing theorized and I really think that if what has changed the way we communicate as technology and this the mersive immersive aspect of social media technology the fact that we carry these devices with us all the time that allow us to communicate and allowed us to read other people's Communications and or watch other people's Communications and I have a concern that this is going to escalate with each X each expansion and each innovation in terms of like what I don't know what it would because no one saw the internet coming if you go back 30 years ago no one ever thought anything was going to be anything like it is now well Al Gore did ha ha I bet he did but if you

► 02:02:09

but if you go 30 years from now me what are we really looking at what what it what what what is this world going to be I don't think anybody has an idea I think we have no idea and I think it's going to be if you look at the trend the trend is not towards calming people down and giving people space and yeah allowing people to meditate more another the trend is to get more and more immersed right the trend is for us to get closer and closer to each other to remove boundaries remove boundaries for information and ideas and even in long-term contemplations of this I've often thought that everything right all of our communication is basically ones and zeros it's all information it's all words and thoughts and videos and now you're getting into cryptocurrency now cryptocurrencies essentially ones and zeros It's All Digital everything's digital and the bottlenecks if any bottlenecks are there at all the bottlenecks are slowly but surely getting removed these the the bot the blockades in the walls

► 02:03:09

I think we're going to probably experience some sort of level of immersive technology in our lifetimes that's going to change the way human beings communicate period that we're going to look back at this time like ha remember when we thought that like social media arguments were like the big deal yeah I I was recently I used to have more of like a techno utopian View and it started to sort of change partially because of some of the Sci-Fi I read when you're eating everything but most recently so like 15 years ago I read the Richard K Morgan book altered carbon and at the time I was like this has to be made into something that's the one that's on Netflix now and then like a year ago Joel Kinnaman was in the series and it is just awesome and there's good the series is quite good as yours is quite good yeah and I really like Joel Kinnaman and I you know Richard K Morgan I interviewed who wrote the book years ago but that genre started to move me away from

► 02:04:09

you know utopianism and Technologies is going to solve so many problems because it also is going to create new problems that we don't even yet know about so as an example I went all the back all the way back to the beginning when humans went from hunter-gatherers and figured out we can domesticate some crops we can start Agriculture and settle and be in one place that was the acceleration of what we know of as wealth ownership what it was like the start right so much of what we had mean agriculture allowed people to be able to live and do stuff other than find food which developed Specialists who created technology which created our right like it all came from agriculture in that way but tons of bad stuff came from it as well right the beginning of the concept of a sedentary lifestyle came from agriculture diseases that we got from animals and then that we brought other places and they killed tons of people so I've kind of adopted that view to technology now which is yeah all the cool stuff we can imagine an improvement

► 02:05:09

I'm sure we'll be there but problems we aren't even aware of yet are also going to be there yeah I agree with you 100% that's what I meant by looking back at this social media problem I think we're going to have a far more invasive problem I think the I think we're going to probably have some sort of a wearable thing that allows us to communicate through thoughts sure well thoughts would be a next step but at minimum I mean replacing you don't need the screen on your phone right you have contacts that are connected to something and everything is just displayed I mean there will be steps Jamie whatever happened with that Microsoft thing that we were looking at member they had like the little mouse that was dancing in your hand or the elephant that was dancing in your hand it was an augmented logically yes that was available was Microsoft hololens neuron hololens to but they've moved more towards like a commercial

► 02:05:55

applications for it as opposed to like consumer availability there are consumer availability a are things coming out right now they're what Apple just showed up there WWDC event this month or it actually on Monday is really cool we're still just like watching a through that phone though they're not I don't think anyone's made the device like a glass is type A are thing yet because the field of view isn't right to haven't mastered that either projecting light into your eye which is what magic leap does or projecting onto the glass that your than looking at which is what I think hololens and the other thing does right so it's a figured out yet betamax versus VHS race to see my figures it out so yeah but like that Oculus quest which is different hmm just also just came out is really cool and there's their the so close so much closer they could be within a year or two or something good come out at the end of this year that hasn't been announced we're very close only the question is like how much is that going to affect daily life right with augmented reality

► 02:06:54

yeah yeah the other one that relates to that also is right now you at least can put your phone away right what happens when the line between the technology and the body is have a bit about it I'm very concerned I really am and just I think we're giving up agency to something that has no feelings for us at all well there's no I mean I think the problems people have in practice often are different than the ones I mean there's no transparency with a lot of the the companies that are developing these Technologies and setting up the algorithms and whatever there's really no transparency about what it is that's going on what the end goals are what the broader effects on society are going to be I know you've had Jonathan haidt on who has talked a lot about the disproportionate effect of social media on suicidality particularly in young girls relative to boys it's been years now that this stuff has been around and we're now kind of figuring

► 02:07:54

that out so it's inevitably we're behind always and figuring out what the effects are because you have time to measure it and that as things Advanced more and more quickly whatever damage is potentially going to be done will happen even faster yes yeah that's what the concern is that we are always behind and that it's sneaking into our lives before we have any idea of how dangerous it is sure I mean this happened with you know the food the canned and processed food revolution of the 50s and 60s it was slower but it was the same type of thing where all of these advancements in being able to make food last longer via how it was processed and stored it all sounded awesome and a time when food would just go bad then we started learning about observe bad things that come with it exactly yeah anything more for rabbit up think that's a oh I so two things I wanted to mention someone when I announced that I was going to be on the show companies started contacting me saying we will give you money if you work our

► 02:08:53

name our product into the conversation have you product I'm not gonna say but I do want to talk about car insurance briefly have you heard that that's happened to other guests no you haven't interesting that's interesting yeah wow that's a weird sneaky thing yeah it no one's ever paid me to do that no one's paid you no no no one's ever paid me to to have an like a conversation on a podcast oh but one company did want to advertise and they wanted their CEO to come on the podcast and discuss their product and I was like give me like an infomercial I was like No And they're like well you've talked about people before that have had products before I go yeah because I like their product right and I think what they're doing is cool right as 0 Financial investment in their product right only did it because I like it sure well I mean people in my audience knows that we do sponsored stuff like your dad's whatever

► 02:09:54

I disclose it I'm clear and my Approach is I'm super up front with my audience which is listenmi to only like half a percent of you are paying for a membership the memberships are six bucks a month I know like 80% of you can afford it only like half a percent or doing it that's fine I'm going to keep doing the show but I'm going to put some sponsored content up you don't have to watch it I'm in a market as such period And I feel like for the most part we have kind of an understanding of how it all works there's nothing wrong with it as long as this products that you actually enjoy and again that you maintain that transparency and that Honesty absolutely nothing wrong with that if I don't have that with the audience I don't have anything right and I've asked been asked to compromise it you had a yeah for sure yeah it's just like it would be worth so much you know yeah I mean there's this moral hazard sort of situation that exists with insurance where the people who don't really need the insurance or the ones that the insurance companies want to ensure right and the people that are more likely to use the insurance the insurance companies are like we're going to have to charge you

► 02:10:53

times as much type of thing right it's easier to get the sponsorship money from stuff that's less interesting or less aligned or whatever and I don't know I mean it's an ongoing battle I don't talk to any of our advertisers like we have a team that handles all of that and that is great but there are you know there are still calls to make about like what is on this side of the line what's on that side of the line yeah I try to make the right calls no I think you're doing a great job I appreciate your show I appreciate your time thanks for coming down here tell everybody where they could find you Deepak man on PA kma n on I'm on Twitter at Deep Hackman I'm on where am I I'm on Instagram at David pakman and my website David pakman.com all right thank you David my pleasure thanks for having me

► 02:11:40

thank you everyone for tuning into the show and thank you to our sponsors thank you too honey stop fucking around and save yourself some cash money with honey it works in over twenty thousand sites like Amazon Nordstrom J.Crew Nike Best Buy Target Macy's and more it takes zero effort to install just two clicks and you'll start saving that cheddar anytime you shop online it's free to use and easy to install on your computer and just two clicks go to joined honey.com Rogan and try it for free that's joined honey.com Rogan honey online savings simplified we're also brought to you by athletic greens get yourself into a daily routine that will get your health in gear ladies and gentlemen athletic greens is

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► 02:13:40

all right that's it folks hope you enjoy the show thank you much love bye bye