#1022 - Eric Weinstein

Oct 10, 2017

Eric Weinstein is a mathematician and economist, and he is also the managing director at Thiel Capital.

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hey what's up everybody first of all thank you to everybody came to the show in Vegas this weekend it was it was very strange to be performing just five days after such a horrific Massacre but I think I could speak for all of us when I say that we all needed a laugh and you guys were amazing it was a great crowd I really really enjoyed it got a bunch of the comedy dates coming up the next one is the 28th of October that's at the Masonic theater in San Francisco two shows first one is sold out second one is really close to selling out and then November 3rd Madison Square Garden November 17th Denver at the belko theater first show Almost sold out some tickets available for the second show Phoenix Commerce see a theater on the 18th almost sold out blah blah blah blah blah you can fucking find all these dates at Joe Rogan dotnet forward slash tour if you want to come to the show for New Year's Eve though I should say that we're at The Wiltern in Los

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jealous with me and the Great and Powerful Ian Edwards and

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10:00 p.m. show is sold out and 7:30 p.m. show is selling out very quickly Joe Rogan dotnet forward slash tour for all that good stuff this episode the podcast is brought to you by Blue Apron this October Blue Apron is celebrating its fifth anniversary by bringing back its top 20 recipes from throughout the past five years as picked by you the Blue Apron community-focused Blue Apron bro Blue Apron is an awesome service that sends you a styrofoam cooler with like some ice bags in it and prepackaged food in the proper proportions for you to cook delicious meals it's all fresh food it's all delicious and they give you photographic step-by-step instructions on how to put it together it's super easy to do and it takes 40 minutes or less to cook delicious meals delicious meals with really fresh

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forward slash Rogen to go get you some that's me on these.com forward slash Rogan we're also brought to you by white famous

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that sounds racist

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but it's okay because it's a black eye that starring in it so you can get away Jay Pharoah from Saturday Night Live he's starring as Floyd Mooney who is a comedian whose career is about to blow the fuck up in a new Showtime comedy series it's about a dude trying to make it in Hollywood executive produced by our friend Academy Award winner Jamie Foxx and Tom kapinos hope I said his name right the creator of Californication it's based on Jamie Foxx's real life experiences also starring Michael Rapaport Jacob Ming Trent good luck with this word hooked arsh ambedkar look Tosh whoever you are I'm so sorry I fucked your name up because I'm sure I did and Lonnie Chavis pre Premier tune in two episodes series premiere on Sunday October 15th was today's day

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today's the 10th

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to episode series premiere on Sunday October 15th at 10 p.m. only on Showtime or after the premiere you can tune in and watch new episodes at Sundays at 10:00 p.m. only on Showtime and you can watch the hilarious series premiere right now for free on YouTube that's a smart move I like how people are doing that please shit online but everybody watch it download the Showtime app to right now you can start your free trial okay so it's again it premieres October the 15th to episode premiere on Sunday October the 15th at 10 p.m. only on Showtime and then of course you can watch on YouTube too goddamn how good is that all right my guest today is Eric Weinstein brother of Brett Weinstein who's been on the podcast before and we found not to be confused with Harvey

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teen they're not related they have a different saying there's it's spelled the same I'm never saying Weinstein again when I say Brett because I fucked that up before Weinstein Eric Weinstein the brilliant guy Eric is really really interesting and we had a fantastic conversation he was a little nervous at first because a little nervous but he loosened up incredibly and we had a great time and if you hear a lot of banging around the beginning of the podcast that shit goes away this is our last week here at the current Studio we are moving and it's apropos that the day that we are about to move these motherfuckers start pounding on the roof they're fixing something here alright folks without any further Ado please welcome Eric Weinstein The Joe Rogan Experience trained by day Joe Rogan podcast by night

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yes laughs hello Eric hello Joe thanks for doing this man Jimmy had a question you're you're not related to that other fellow the other ones team fell it's in trouble right now Brett Weinstein no that's your brother the other guy oh wine steam the other guy yeah I don't know him okay the other guys in trouble

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it's like two more women Angelina Jolie and they both came out today I don't think it's going to stop there seems like might have had a little bit of an issue an amazing that someone can get away with something like that for so long and then one or two people come clean in the walls come down the oppressive fist of just his fucking tyranny whatever that guy did yeah I mean I think it does speak to the idea that power really exists in an industry in a town like this what's always been the the that's been the cliche right the casting couch right yes but I didn't know in the modern era how much how much power anyone still had yeah I wonder you know it's just and it's also like super left wing guy you know like really politically connected to social justice ideologies fighting gun control

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you know promoting gun control and stumping for Hillary and all this yeah it seems like overcompensation I don't want to bring this up right up front yeah we're going to talk about cuttlefish I asked you to save the Cuttlefish and this kind of conversation about judgmental fish while we were talking about

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I mean all of these are just like incredible hot button topics but we're talking before about your religion your conversation on male and female programming in the mind on male and female biological right Rheims and what I was

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what I was going to talk about there was that you can actually have in other species which aren't nearly as controversial as humans a rational basis for something like transphobia in an evolutionary context so the giant cuttlefish which I think is called sepia Palma I'm not a biologist the males are incredibly large they're very sexually dimorphic and you've got these tiny are smaller males who don't have a good strategy for keeping a lot of females underneath them where the males are incredibly large or the fails are incredibly large okay females tend to be much smaller okay the when the females are impressed they accept shelter underneath one of these giant males huh but then you have these other males who aren't nearly as big which might be called sneaker males and the sneaker males start retracting

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tentacles that identify them as male and changing through their chromatophores they're sort of their presentation to look female and then the giant males invite these males disguised as females through behavioral change underneath and we've now proven I believe that these sneaker males inseminate the females well the larger males are getting duped now are the larger males larger because they just have better genetics or they larger because they're older well you know the question about better genetics key question is who leaves the lineages that matter over time so if you're wasting all of your energy on a strategy and in fact what you're doing is you're providing protection for sneaker males to get busy with the females who seem to be equally happy to reward a devious mail

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a strong one you know I'm putting mind of the Old Willie Dixon blues song I'm a Backdoor Man the men don't know but the little girls understand you know definitely females favor a variety of strategies whether communicating strength and dominance cleverness or anything that females are likely to decide will benefit their offspring yeah that's a that's a great name for them to sneaker males is that like the Tactical male the technical term for those small meals I've seen it in the lizards and I don't know the sepia Palma giant cuttlefish system but I'm obsessed with cephalopod so I should probably go back and do some homework on them I didn't know we would be starting out with we talk about any Harvey Weinstein again thing giant yeah giant cuttlefish Weinstein versus Weinstein that's the difference I'm definitely keeping that yeah it's a good distinction now right now yeah it's good yeah make a separation

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cephalopods including cuddle fish octopus squids novelists and then they all sort of came from molix right this is the craziest thing in the world right I mean we're not we're not guaranteed to meet an alien intelligence during our lifetimes but the idea that such genius exists in mollusks where you least expect it yeah is probably the closest were ever going to get to aliens so I mean I think that it's sort of there's a secret International conspiracy people who have realized this and you know just freaked out on cephalopods and they know they know every crazy thing that cephalopods have been proven to understand and

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you know where their cognitive capabilities just sort of wow us we have the cognitive capabilities their camouflage capabilities the strategies that they use for attacking Bait fish and there's a video that I put up on my Twitter really recently of a cuttlefish that opens up like a flower and shoots its tongue out and gets this fish and then just sucks it into its body it's like you're looking at some kind of an alien it's totally an Mei forget is that like Seven Fold symmetry or you know it's really on a different branch of the phylogenetic tree and I think that you know the Dazzle patterns where you just start seeing these neon signs that are effectively made out of the chromatophores and if you've seen the videos where people put them on against like really artificial patterns like chess boards or chintz or things and the Cuttlefish has to figure out okay how do I blend in with that yeah yeah and they do their best to Market but the natural world they mimic perfectly well

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not really I think was an octopus can do it some octopus can do it I think what happens is that I yeah I don't know that one

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I guess it's octa-pie I think what they do is they actually sort of do much less than we are imagining and they use the fact that we our brains are interpolating

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so they're in part not matching the background as well as we think but they're doing it well enough that our brains sort of make up the difference huh that's weird I mean but what would be the difference between the way we interpret their visual what whatever camouflaged are giving off because it's a visual camouflage right yeah if you look at some of the some of the camouflage videos like the first seven times you see it you can't imagine yeah but then after after a while you say oh wow there really is a difference and somehow I just I did the interpolation to help out that which is trying to escape my detection well I mean there's definitely a distinction you can kind of tell once you look at it but it's so insanely impressive in comparison to pretty much almost every other life form you know what they can do in terms of like they could change their texture that's one of the like when they when they

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it on a coral reef and they start looking like a coral reef like whoa have you if you check that the mimic octopus yes right so yeah that one five or six different disguises yeah I can't even imagine that usually when you have mimicry it's dedicated or obligate like a you know a stick bug or a leaf insect it's only going to do that one trick you know it's interesting too is like I've heard a real legitimate argument for people that are opposed to eating animal protein that mollusks especially like clams and mussels and things along those lines are more primitive in terms of their ability to recognize or have any any sense of what pain is any sort of communication any sort of interpretation of danger that all they do is just close right and that enclosing we've interpreted that to being it's an animal and that this animal life form is like it's like eating a living thing versus like eating plants

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I've heard it argued actually Sam Harris is the first one to bring it up this is actually a moral argument that they sense less than plants do and that they are more they're more primitive than plants are but yet from the Maliks family you have octopus and there's a good argument that you probably shouldn't be eaten octopus like you shouldn't beat monkeys you know like an octopus is fucking smart like crazy sneaky smart it's them or us Joe oh that's good I mean I case they are delicious bit Yeah I think if you ever look at Humboldt squid you know schooling and descending as one of the great nightmares of all time I don't think I've seen a Humboldt squid of the Humboldt squid sometimes they if we get they call them Red Devils or off like the coast of Baja California and they're just social and they're terrifying because they attack in groups so they plan it

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or they coordinate in some way in some way I mean obviously the chromatophores must have some ability to do signaling and I think that you know with respect to we have to figure out whether it's really intelligence that causes us to become empathic hmm because you know obviously if you're war and you think highly of your enemy you have to guard against your own empathy so that you can be an effective Warrior you have to ask the question you know if monkeys and apes are among the most intelligent beings that do I actually feel some revulsion for just how Savage chimpanzees are as compared to say bonobos or Gibbons yeah isn't that the real argument or the real fascinating conversation is what happened on the in The evolutionary chain like why did bonobos become these peaceful sexual creatures and chimps become these warring Savage psychos like what they look

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so similar like what happened well that one I don't know but there's an interesting system in dung beetles where if you look at the armaments that they have on their head for warring between males there's a conserved quantity between the length of the copulatory apparatus and the size of the Weaponry so the more weapons the smaller the penises and so you know there are all these crazy trade-offs in Apes between relative testicular size and penal size for gorillas right right gorillas have tiny little penises but enormous bodies giant fangs and little tiny when it's penis yeah I guess yeah and but chimpanzees have a big penises and big testicles both yeah say they said that chimpanzees there's a direct correlation between promiscuous females and the size of their testicles hmm

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I don't I don't remember that one but yeah the question about I also worry that weave

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we've idealized the bonobos too much and you know we're sort of it's very hard to be sympathetic with the chimps after Jane Goodall showed us what they're capable oh right but in part you know that the cold logic of the natural world in general you know it's usually some reason that makes complete sense it's it can't be sentimental anytime you bring sentimentality and you usually screw up a good theory and so you know I I worry that our comparisons are driven by our needs to locate ourselves farther away from chimpanzees and closer to something that we feel comfortable so are idealizing the bonobos is not necessarily based on what they actually are but based on like our little sort of hippie version of life like look we could be like the bonobos love

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in sexual and affectionate or we can be like the warring horrible horrible chimpanzees well you know it's also the case that how great does it feel to be sexual if you're being sexually out competed by others it's always unfun to be you know low status and nature has different ways of punishing and rewarding status and achievement in various different in various different species so my guess is that there is a kind of concern conserved

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you know unpleasantness and losing each particular game and they pleasure in winning each particular game right and that's that's essentially how nature keeps moving forward right yeah you know to the extent that you're wasting energy Waring when you could be being constructive or being more strategic you're going to get out competed by whichever members of your species you know figure out the puzzle first and so I think that

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you know there's this concept of the naturalistic fallacy of viewing that which you know if you assume that we carry some sort of judeo Christian baggage and all of this was thought to come from a Creator who was thought to have positive characteristics then well obviously the natural world is God's work but I mean if you actually look at the systems that fascinate me the Creator would have to be about the most Twisted Consciousness Consciousness you could possibly imagine well it seems like it's the long game the Creator is playing at the Creator's not playing the game that favors the the health and the welfare of the individual in the current day it's the matter of like figuring out how to get through this brutal game and advancing an evolving along the way to the point where some day in the future you find a more complex and evolved system but you know this is the most complex and involved this us you and me

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it's most complex and involves system in terms of its ability to change its environment that we've ever come across and we're not too happy with ourselves yeah although I do think that despite our barbarism we are that which can contemplate the game and you know at some point you've obviously had my brother on the street on the show I asked him is an evolutionary theorist Brett what are you doing you know you're married to one woman you've had two kids as an evolutionary theorist don't you think you're throwing the game and his response was I think brilliant it was and tell me Eric if you understood the game why would you want to continue to play it hmm right so for him it was almost like a sort of proof that if you really get you know another one of his good quotes is that life when properly understood is a spelling bee that ends in genocide that we're also focused on a nucleotide

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do you really care about the particular way in which you did to digest lactose different from how I do it that you want to go to war with me so we can spell the future using your version rather than mine maybe you'd feel this way about your ideas about you know your songs your stories but really you really want to fight over like things that neither of us care about us I don't follow like what what are you saying well if you're trying to think about like I want to leave seven children right okay why do you want to do that well because I want to see more copies of myself well you will see a certain number of copies of yourself but that's going to get diluted very quickly by the time we get to your great-great-grandchildren is going to be hard to see yourself

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yeah and your Offspring so that's sort of an illusion of one generation to Generations most of the things that are going to determine your jeans propagating have to do with the fact that you're on a team there are a bunch of people who digest milk the way you do and so the key question is you know team Rogan on the milk digestion is some huge number of people you've never met that's what I understand like why I don't understand the connection to milk digestion I don't know well it's just one thing that your body is doing in a particular way uh-huh so you know do you like let's take eye color maybe that's more okay so you know I know that I have a blue allele that is being suppressed in terms of its expression do I really care that you know my wife has two brown alleles does it matter to me that my blue somehow survives right do I care that I wanted to survive enough against some brown eyed person like interesting if you had a checklist of like

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things that you would agree upon like you and the wife get together and say Okay so this better than and ability what do you think you know who's whose side we going with intelligence you're a little smarter than me I'm going to give it to you let's go with the let's go with your brain yeah okay I'm better at smelling things like how do you know I'm just thankful we lured you to cats let's have none of the kids fucking sneeze every time they go near a litter box was the great thing was just flip a coin yeah let's do it a couple of times and whatever we get we get and I worry about you know Chris Burke has nine people going to be having these like I'll trade you this for that we're going to have crazy yeah I'm bummed fascinated by crisper I mean I think most people aren't even aware of it people like you of course are people are paying attention are but I think to the general public has no idea the crisper even exists and it's potentially world-changing you are literally looking at the tools that will eventually lead much like

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you know Alexander Graham Bell's invention led to you having the internet in your pocket right slowly but surely I mean you're looking at the tools that will one day lead to us engineering some completely new organism that you're going to call human beings yeah I think that's gonna be a long time off the think Alexander Graham Bell was a long time off and then I think wow I bet it's less time than that okay what was that was that 1,800 yeah I think of that what are the odds 2017 to the late 1800s you don't think 2117 we're going to behave fucking Incredible Hulks and Thor's and women look like Wonder Woman there's not going to be a single troll-like looking person left and that when I think we're going to be able to do a lot of them yeah I think we're going to be able to do a lot more combinatorics of swapping something in that's known to work and swapping something out but we actually get to like authorship we're like okay I got this great idea for a human being right I'm going to start from scratch

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there's there's a lot of optimism that for which I am the pessimist you know uploading the mind to a computer yeah you put a lot of kurzweil's ideas yeah well not in the sense that we're never going to get anywhere close but just there was a good story 45 that's what they're well I mean for a man I'm optimistic about certain things that turned out to be a lot easier than we expected I think that a lot of things that are we thought were going to require artificial general intelligence are going to succumb to much simpler systems and so you know you might have thought that for example if you played through the great chess games of the 1800s like morphe Andy Anderson and things you might as well that's just a uniquely human activity and then you find out no no computers can trounce humans a chest because it's not it wasn't what you thought it was Maybe music will be the next thing to succumb because that's really

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highly regular right well music is also intensely creative and emotive write it it Sparks feeling in humans and I don't think you could really I don't know I mean maybe you could but I don't think you really could figure out a way to engineer or have a computer engineer something that makes you feel like Led Zeppelin The Immigrant Song you know there's just like a bizarre feeling to someone's art that comes through when you listen to it you like oh this is fucking great you know like where I don't I don't necessarily know you could do that with something that doesn't understand emotions or is using a replica of emotions whereas chess you know you know a rook move this way on can move that way here's the rules this is how it starts this is what once you get here you're in check like those things seem pretty straightforward you're dealing with squares it's very mathematic you know one person moves another one moves whereas like there's like this fluid

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sure to Art literature and music and comedy other half of that I think I disagree really yeah I mean so I don't know why you chose the Immigrant that that's like that song to don't know why because I'm going to go to cryotherapy after this that's the song that I was to do kind of land me ice and stone Hammer of the Gods just gets on so if we eat if you taken if you'd if you take in Roy orbison's Pretty Woman okay right so you have the main riff from that song yeah I'd like pretty mama walking down the street right but the girl dude a con like to make sure they're working after the right but the Riff is like doo-doo-doo doo-doo-doo-doo doo-doo-doo-doo did it edited right so if you start if you take a guitar string and you split it into four equal parts you put your finger over one quarter of the string and then you start just plucking the string and hovering above

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the string so you don't actually push it to the fretboard those notes occur naturally as the harmonics in the expansion of the vibrating string so that those notes were not really chosen by Roy Orbison whoever wrote the song they were really chosen by like a Fourier series and it feels like it's a riff but I discovered this when I was in Indonesia as I would start playing that and people would react I thought like why that song what about more complex creative and sort of improvisational song like Voodoo Child from Hendrix so I don't know about Voodoo Child from 99 I mean well it take taking out and it changes up so I if you look at the first couple of chords of red house there's like some seventh or diminished chord mmm like he's arpeggiating Hannah and then he moves it down a half step which has to do with this tritone

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and the Symmetry inside of the seventh chord so if I recall correctly you have a chord like cegb flat would be a C7 chord and the E and the B flat would form this thing called a tritone and now if you went in the Blues either three elements of the chord progression the dominant sub-dominant and the Tonic If you go down a half step you effectively invert the third the flat seventh so if you go one half step below that it's the flat seventh and the third I think of the subdominant chord so Hendricks is actually playing with math hmm in something as basic as do you think he's aware of it or do you think he's doing it sort of just instinctual well first of all when you're visited by an alien intelligence we went through cuttlefish and we now we've got the Jimi Hendrix so it you know that's like these are the these are the best alien sightings we have

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it's very hard to speculate but I I just look at everything I've been able to understand about what he did and you know you're dealing with a super mind as well as an intuitive right Mastery Master of the instrument complete understanding of the chords and progressions and just the ability to improvise and to make it sound different adding the wah-wah pedal and all that Distortion and all the shit that he stood and the fact that he imparts more into OneNote like I wouldn't even know how to notate what is even the instrument and play guitar he played the guitar amplification you know signal processing system as a whole yeah so you know there are these people who are just in some multi-dimensional space another one of my favorites is a guy named Roy Buchanan who somehow these guys who understand harmonics gravitate to telecasters and you know pull up a song called

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Roy's blues and watch him just go into the Multiverse and start playing with things that you can't even imagine are possible so I do think that that there's a very close relationship between algorithms and emotion and I just did this one for an old tweet of mine where I wrote a Python program that actually runs from the tweets of the entire program is in the tweet and its purpose is to generate the chord progression for Pachelbel's Canon which is if you want people to cry at a wedding that's the chord progression to play and so the idea that it's actually an algorithm that breaks your heart is very frightening just let me know what some insane noise in the background here folks are doing some shit to our roof these are the last days that were in the studio by the way which is hilarious that it's sort of highlighting when we need to get the fuck out of here but I don't know what they're doing this to me does even rain anymore

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they doing fixing the roof put a fucking tarp up their assholes the guy even asked me right before the show is like what time do you think I told him it's like oh well that's right about the time we're lighting explosions right above your head sorry for people listening to this like what the fuck is that noise that's the noises they're banging around the roof pinned down by enemy fire yeah well I mean I think it's also me as a as a human I probably have some bias some stupid idea that creativity is impossible to recreate you know that whatever it leads to a person being able to make some beautiful song or create some amazing book is impossible for some sort of a computer to figure that out on its own

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well if you I would go and hang out in a modern recording studio and watch them move the Beat Around mmm and mutated and change it if you think about like that moment where Cher said hey I don't think auto-tune should be used to correct my voice in a Sly way I'm going to use this as the instrument itself right and suddenly this metallic voice actually is an becomes an Anthem and you start you know Robo share is incredibly inspiring do you remember Peter Frampton he was like one of the first guys to use it in a song Do You Feel Like I Do Well so use that that thing with his mouth yeah tubing is so he's really actually using his body to shape he's using the there's like this five dimensional lattice in your in your mouth to produce the international phonemic alphabet so your nose could be on or off that's one degree of Freedom you can have

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on or off vocalization meaning you can have your like f f as in Frank versus V is in Victory they're the same mouth right but right is vibrating it throat so you can have no nasal ization on off vocalization so this is in the throat someone Frank you fucking vomer like never s versus Z would be another pair okay so the sound that you're making with with your throat right Ryan you have like your lips and one of three positions so that's a third degree of Freedom then your tongue can be in one of five positions and it can be fully elevated half elevated or not elevated at all hmm so there's like five parameter family that generates What's called the international phonemic alphabet

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and you know one of the cool things to think about is how could you create an instrument that naturally allowed you phonemic Productions that you're not just doing these you know right ample ringing tones well there's got to be a way to just recreate it physically right just make an artificial head and maybe just made an artificial head with I mean it's not like we do something that's impossible to recreate with a robot okay but like in terms of if you take the collection of all major instruments what comes closest to the human voice a lot of people think it's the Indian violin called the sarong guy really yeah

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you've never checked that out yeah what's a sarangi sarangi is like a when use it to drown out the pounding on the roof we'd win so Runge yeah I've never heard of us a Runge yeah that's badass it's a strange violent is a strange violence a lot of sympathetic strings and

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you know because of you can power into a note if you have a guitar and I pluck a string I'm just going to get Decay unless I drive the sound right but you know if I do with my voice I'll look how cool that thing looks

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yeah wow

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louder wow just try to imagine like a lot of those are sympathetic strings so they ring when you hit the tone perfectly whoa now

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let me see so if you've never gotten into North Indian classical music this is who has today's your lucky day this is really cool to wild-looking thing Man it has three strings yeah my guess is I mean I don't recall but very often you will need so no one no one looks kind of old yeah it looks a little beat up fucking I'm surprised amazing because I like rum Narayan on this thing he was like the ultimate battle there's a ultimate badass and the saranga I'm learning almost died and almost died out it almost died I think it was like it was used for guzzle singing and courtesans used to play what's up guzzle singing ghazals like his type of song that would be popular in what would now be Pakistan in Northern India

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check this dude out

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do you remember zamfir Master of the Pan Flute eight of those late-night adds that that shit died off quick huh I am that old that pamphlet thing really never caught on

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this is way better than the pamphlet though

► 00:41:21

do you think this guy is groupies I know he does does he teach yoga to seems like he would um well so you see the drums on the left yeah so that's that the table and the by on and that is the you know I think many people would consider North Indian drumming to be the world's most advanced rhythmic system really yeah I mean even even more than Africa the speed of articulation goes at the speed of speech and if you take the Hindi verb to speak bolna they have the system that they call the bowls and to speak the bowls is to say what you would instruct your hands to do if you were playing the drums wow look at them

► 00:42:09

I've heard sounds like this before for sure like I'm a fan of dollar Mehndi like dollar mendis music okay let's get some cool music and he has this kind of shit in the background a lot do you know he is right I do not you don't know who dollar Mendez I should what is this song the big famous song things called tunak tunak tun it's really a badass song it's I really love music but I don't know what they're saying you know I enjoy that because just like you just kind of get a feel for the song you have no idea what the actual words where they could be totally corny yeah you know see if you can find something like speaking the bowls for table and you'll see these guys doing this thing where they dug a deduct didn't hit that rocket una década tactic you know what they do plus that they could create with their mouths everything that their fingers would do with their hands so they can access that song that song that were just playing

► 00:43:08

what's totally cut off this is it this is him

► 00:43:14

it's got a badass have no idea what he's saying you guys are hilarious music video too

► 00:43:24

the music is like

► 00:43:29

is any badass it's him against him in this video

► 00:43:34

but he got arrested for like white slavery well that's not good yeah he got arrested Jesus what it was like sex trafficking or something like that some kind of slave trap sex slave trafficking or something like that he was a part of some I don't know maybe he just pissed off the wrong guy and India and I guess they fucking hit him with some bullshit charge you never know you know weird countries like that they can get away with a lot of shit

► 00:44:01

what is it brother just died I guess oh it's taking over the news on this thing anyway sorry so what does that those drums called again often just called table but table has the sort of soprano drum and then the by on I guess you play with sort of the heel of your hands you strike and go boom huh and I think the you know the world's best practitioner is this guy lives in Marin County now really Zakir Hussain who is the child of Allah rakha who is like the badass of his time and it's one of these things where I think you sort of have to be born almost into the family to have this passed down how do you know all this stuff this is something you've studied for a long time there is an amazing book by a guy named Neil Sorrell that I picked up in college

► 00:44:59

and I just opened it up and it went through an entire performance of Indian North Indian classical music and I was just you know my my jaw was on the floor how is that this entire form of classical music much closer to our Jazz so much more impressive I mean visually to watch one of these drummers and one of these soloists like The Soloist will try to lose the drummer and the drummer's got these mirror neurons that can't be beat and I'll just like follow him everywhere and so you're just you know you're some some poor white kid in America saying nobody told me this existed yeah it's isn't it weird how we just choose like a certain series of instruments that represent rock and roll certain series of instruments that represent Jazz you know it's really it's strange when you think of the the wide range of musical instruments that exist all over the world that are just never utilized in modern music yeah and I do think that we've become to comply

► 00:45:59

we should be like Ian Anderson with Jethro Tull yeah y-you know if you listen to the flute solo and Locomotive Breath that'll get me going every goddamn Ryman why didn't I take I didn't take it off yeah you know the clarinet was lost to Jazz used to be this incredibly dominant instrument and coming out of like the klezmer tradition you know it rocked and then it sort of became this non thing and some point I saw a guy named Tony Scott who was like the last great clarinetist in jazz who went off to Japan to study Zen for years and he came back for a birthday concert he blew Dizzy Gillespie and Benny Carter off the stage I was just thinking like oh I forgot clarinet can be the Kick-Ass instrument yeah most people think of it as something you're forced to take in high school yeah but fundamentally that's that's where like the uke the ukulele is come back like crazy

► 00:46:57

the ukulele was a Mexican instrument that was introduced to Hawaii right it's not out what Yugi's I think it was it yeah but it got it is it's a big thing in in Hawaii right I think into the ukulele yeah I think it came over with cattle ranchers I think it was introduced to Hawaii by people who brought over like Cowboys like if I remember I might be butchering the story forgive me my Hawaiian friends but I think what it what it was was they had introduced cattle at some point in the history of Hawaii and when they introduced cattle they're like hey how do you keep these fucking things from wandering all over the place so man we got to find some cowboys teach us how to do this shit and they got some moves either Mexican or South American Cowboys to come over and show them how to Wrangle these cows how to how to Corral them how to how to take care of them and then when they did these Cowboys came over and introduced the ukulele

► 00:47:57

is really kind of uniquely Hawaiian in art in America when we think about it you know you hear like a sound of like the ukulele we sort of think about it as whole like my daughter's musician and when we are in Hawaii I got our ukulele like she you know and she plays it we think about it's like in a lot of people's eyes like a lot of like what we think of as classic Hawaiian music is played with the ukulele yeah so I think I might I thought that his thought it was I thought it was like a porch I think it's so cool a lie like jumping flea it's on why our name on a Portuguese instrument what's that that's what Wikipedia says they attributed to three Portuguese immigrants and 1880s that developed it from three other guitar-like instruments from Portugal called the right click of Aquino and that's the origin of the ukulele but how did it get to Hawaii because they were in Hawaii oh they were in Hawaii those guys were in Hawaii oh so they brought it to Hawaii the very guys made it what Wikipedia says

► 00:48:57

but it's not Wikipedia said Brian Collins my brother and I have some weird diseases that I don't really have

► 00:49:06

look at PD is awesome I just love the fact that he's let people just edit it like anytime there's a podcast and something fucked up happens you go to the person's Wikipedia page now totally butcher it well the amazing thing is that it works at all yes that's it that is amazing right is amazing I never would have guessed that yeah right like some user edited thing that's sort of what's amazing also is there's only one Snopes

► 00:49:30

you know like there's only one like real well-regarded fact-checking website like it was someone else say hey watch Snopes that right I wouldn't I wouldn't anymore yeah I'm just stressful you're just stressed about distrustful distrustful of Snopes why do you feel like they're left-leaning or do you feel like they're just not necessarily a hundred percent honest or what do you think well are you think the guy gets a lot of hookers and does a lot of blow and not really pay attention sometimes the guys the history of it as fucking hilarious the guy he just Shacks up with some escort and she becomes the the main editor I'm gonna have some more DMT before you know I think that

► 00:50:15

one I think that the IQ not needed to sort fact from fiction at the moment is enormous the amount of money you'd need would be oh yeah right fantastic actually today with hashtag fake news yeah so I am I'm sort of feeling like I'm witnessing the battle for whether any Authority exists at all and the claim that you fact check has been synonymous with the fact that you're truthful hmm which is total nonsense in other words if I accurately represent three people who were in a in a scene and I leave out to others

► 00:51:01

and somebody says

► 00:51:05

that fact you know the picture is fake I said no no these three people really were there yes but you filtered out those other things you know you can tell lies by leaving things out by insinuation I have this whole Riff on what I frequently refer to as Russell conjugation other people call emotive conjugation so you know the difference between Fink versus whistleblower is how I usually introduce this hmm you have these are technically synonyms in English not substitute one for the other yeah rat and whistleblower don't ya well whistleblowers the only is usually one of the only positive ones Chelsea Manning is a highly regarded rat okay does it work because of the emotional shitty yeah and so you know the like another thing is to get somebody proximate to something very disturbing so Ben Shapiro and I were in this article about how the alt-right was outraged and we were the

► 00:52:05

the two people cited neither want to be all right you right Jesus Christ is all right thing is a weird thing to no no it's a great game you have to appreciate what it is okay so if you're trying to silence the very small number of people who are probably your guests hmm the right thing to do is to make sure that their proximate to lots of terrible stuff right so that people who are too busy to sort things out so well you know I neither condemn nor condone because all you're trying to do is to model everything but you need enough fear uncertainty and doubt in order to get the job done and so it doesn't matter that the article says you know in the banner headline alt-right enraged and then the two people you know listed or like Jews who oppose Trump but that's alright because when those articles are parsed

► 00:53:05

it shows up as well you were in a bunch of articles about the alt-right yeah okay so I get it you're really not paying attention and the point isn't to inform the reader the point is to tag that which you wish to news neutralize right and so it's working very well to people in the alt-right consider themselves alt right or did they used to and now it's become sort of a pejorative so let's go through the craziness here okay assume that you are not a Democrat right not a Democrat might translate to libertarian or republican right Republican translates to right of center right you've Transit Center translate to right-wing translates to far-right translates to all right translates to white supremacist translates to Neo-Nazi translates to Nazi right and so you have these very strange chains on the left where Republican keeps bleeding into Nazi right because

► 00:54:03

of this very weird things like what you said you said you didn't vote Democrat so I can I say that you're right wing I mean your far right right you're basically all right Jesus Christ holy crap you just you know move somebody who's a country club Republican into being a Gestapo agent you know yeah and does all right necessarily mean white supremacists are they conveniently glued those two things together I think Richard Spencer considers himself all right well I think he coined alt right oh he did so you know is white supremacy with the human face and a human face is supposed to watch look a goat no he's trying he's trying to change the was trying to come up with a friendlier version of Nazi or white supremacists where is right and so at some level that was a disgusting intellectual masterstroke but then alt right became the plaything you know a lot of

► 00:55:03

who are tired of being told what to think and who to be started blurring these distinctions yeah now you've got this frog and sometimes you put a hat on the Frog sometimes it's the Nazi hat sometimes the Trump hat right and so the whole idea is like okay for those of us who got used to those lines that we do not cross those were major transgressions to other people that are like why should there be a rule about a frog right until you had this crazy discussion where you have people with terrible Insidious intent

► 00:55:40

people who are just Clowning Around and everybody is mixed in a way that nobody can sort out right like the Frog that's Keck all right yeah I mean if you really pay attention and I think there's been some sort of a study done and what percentage of the frog is actually used for you know Donald Trump or racism or alright and what percentage of the frog is used just for a goof it's the vast majority is like feels good man type things be but like I've seen I got sent to many Nazi frogs during the election I've been sent a few yeah right and you know it's like anybody could make one right they cannot see and people have maybe that's kind of Mickey Mouse but you know we didn't used to like there's still a lot of stigma around reproducing swastikas with the color scheme and the orientation of the Third Reich have you seen that the gay folks for what for a very short period of time we're trying to co-opt the swastika and turn into a rainbow swan

► 00:56:39

I could take it back oh my gosh well some work when you go to India right you have the swastika cos you know pointing the other direction with dots in them and so if you come from an American context you just fucking triggered all this is a place up here there's a place in Chatsworth I believe that is in a very very old Indian temple that has swastika Saint and there's a large sign but it's not swastika it's a reverse swastika there's a large sign explaining you know hey this is an ancient Hindu symbol and we've had it for a long time and longer I mean my guess I haven't looked at the at the etymology but I would guess that soit comes from beautiful in Sanskrit or something and so you know the question about who does the symbol belong to right and when is an inexorable and when is it inexorable when is it like you know that symmetry pattern I have no question that you might find that symmetry pattern in nature right or you know in like

► 00:57:39

you know 9th century Islamic architecture or something well you know the hexagon they found on top of Jupiter remember that the storm yeah you know what if it was a swastika could you imagine instead of a hexagon there's a swastika on top of Jupiter Jesus Christ you guys really and look at Jupiter Saturn yeah was it Saturn or Jupiter may have been Saturn it with there was some very bizarre pattern pattern is very strange yeah but it and it's uniform I mean it's like pretty close to an actual hexagon relieved

► 00:58:12

so yeah but isn't it is very weird that we get so wrapped up in symbols symbols are so huge for us yeah but but they are efficient compressions information so you know and then you lose you know a symbol like you can lose a name you know like dick no I called a kid's dick anyone gay right yeah we could use to be gay old time The Flintstones had a gay old time that was one of the last uses of gay in that my grandfather claimed that the emotion of gaiety was lost with the word he claimed that there was actually an emotion that went with it but no one actually experiences anymore wow I'm but how's he described it that it was a sort of careless frivolity that it had a certain sort of

► 00:59:06

combination of like Innocents tinged with a little bit of

► 00:59:11

Mischief mmm like sexual Mischief really anyway you know so we become aware of words that open up new territories like the concept of snuck in Thai lots of people go through Thailand come back and they need the word Sanuk which is the quality of fun that something has to have in order for it to be worth doing like did you pay your electrical bill know why there was no snuck in it you know so that that was like that's a concept or what's but you know coming from Yiddish or you know Turkish has yakka Mo's which is the Trail of Light left on the Water by the moon right and so once you have a word for Yakima's

► 00:59:55

it's very hard not to use it even though nobody in English-speaking context knows about it just the way the word selfie if you recall when that came in we'd seen all these weird pictures of like ladies and you know restrooms taking pictures of themselves in the mirror and you're like what the hell is yeah somebody says oh that's a selfie is like got it yeah right and then suddenly that word was everywhere so once we get the symbolic compression that goes with a concept

► 01:00:27

we become pretty dangerous my wife is a friend and so stupid she does know what a selfie means so she takes she put uses hashtag selfie and somebody else takes the picture yeah I've been so sure of her she doesn't have a fucking camera in her hand and she staying there with her hands on her hips

► 01:00:43

I would love to joke with you but I have definitely used that hashtags healthy I've thought selfie when it's not a selfie at all well I mean it's just her

► 01:00:55

picture of herself maybe she set up the camera maybe I'm the asshole right isn't it is it a selfie if you put a timer and a camera and he step back see this is will fuck me I'm an asshole is it that helmet it questions of our she's right I'm wrong maybe she's got a maybe if you just have a husband that's so dumb he'll just sit around take pictures of you so you could put them on Instagram mean you you basically program the monkey self you have a program monkey they'll take pictures to extend itself exactly yeah yeah if you if you shoot a pheasant and you have a dog that will fetch that bird and bring it back to you still shot the bird a pheasant yeah yeah do you know how will they do that yeah yeah you've flushed the birds out with dogs the birds go up in the air they shoot them out with a shotgun the birds hit the ground the dog gets it and brings it back to you but you shot it yeah yeah that's why the only column retrievers and thing yes exactly exactly but we're learning a lot of shit let's just go over all we covered it with no no quiz but the week

► 01:01:54

we recovered why we're moving because there's a fucking earthquake going on on the roof Indian music cephalopods sneaker males sneaker sneaker males yeah I didn't know so many things I didn't know about is that like a common thing though like everybody kind of knows that's what a lot of male feminists are they like like sneaker males they like sliding in closer to proximity to the the females by you know by trying to sort of espouse some ideals that they think would be more attractive to the females because they don't find them in nature

► 01:02:29

yeah and then the problem is that the ovulatory window comes along and suddenly there's a desire for something completely different they go out some biker right immediately it was like what happened with that it's like I don't know it was strangely appealing yeah it's that fucking Gene pull man those goddamn genetics they've got us yeah but it's not it is really amazing how we're conscious and we're aware of all these issues that we deal with but yet we're still we're still at the first to a certain extent at the whim of these genes of these these polls that we have inside of us and that's like the argument that people always make for why some people find like subsistence living like those shows and Alaska so oddly comforting here see those shows where you're really close with the environment that brought you here yeah like Alaska the final frontier you see that show that's folks just live up in there actually related to that woman

► 01:03:29

do you know that beautiful singer Jewel remember some amazing voice and she is related to those folks that live in Alaska and they have this show where they let me live way the fuck up there with nobody around them and they are literally in just Bumfuck nowhere Alaska do that but it's oddly comforting I'd love those shows I don't know why I love those shows what really do I think you might I could see you doing that delivering like that nah no I like to do it a little burst yeah I enjoy a movie theater sir I like a highway I like to drive cars I enjoy television I like cooking in a home okay I like doing that I like sitting down with electricity I like all the trappings of civilization but I do enjoy going to Nature I've no desire to be a Trapper and fucking you know flying around in a bush plane landing places and checking my steel traps for minks and stuff yeah those are the folks

► 01:04:29

huh is that her in there obviously I think super old picture of it is she one of them is she the girl with her the red sweater yeah I forget the name of the family killed Kilcher yeah I think that is it yeah but they ain't mean these fucking people they make their own houses up there I like that and somehow or another she escaped no she probably lives in Venice now some shit my arch nemesis is this guy Garrett Lisi lives in Maui oh yeah why you guys arch nemesis is you don't have one I don't think so you should totally get one what are they good for you well first of all lots of billionaires forgotten to have an arch nemesis you go to movies about Arch nemeses I don't know right plural is but it's like it's definitely one of these things almost nobody has and your arch nemesis has to be somewhat like you so right you know like there is tension that there should only be one hmm oh yeah see I'm not in there should only be one guy I'm a tribal guy yeah I think you should gather up as many people that are like you and support each other well

► 01:05:29

you do end up supporting your economics you keep each other going right all right and it's some sort of a way right some yeah I mean definitely we definitely need some sort of competition I definitely believe that so my arch-nemesis took me out into the jungles of Northern Maui kill you I thought so really we want them yeah you know if you have an enemy and he says hey man you want to go hiking yeah fuck bro well I was I was down for it because I just thought look I'm not sure that he's the one is coming back right right anyway we can go out on this Trail and we're visiting this PhD mathematician in the jungles and it is without question the most mosquito ridden place I've ever been in my wing yeah it's just it's unlivable now I have some incredible rainforest incredible and we get out along this Trail and we went hiking like a mile or two in and this guy has built Shangri-La he's taken this River and he's Scott you know he's been there for like 20

► 01:06:29

five thirty forty years he's a mathematician yeah it's like a PhD in differential geometry wow like lives under this amazing durian tree if you know yeah like we amassed his fruit durian is that yeah that's that stinky fruit right why would you do that because if you've ever had great durian it's one of the great pleasures of life really oh man it stinks but it tastes good yeah it's like Limburger cheese okay that's a good analysis so anyway this guy has built this like solitary world that nobody is watching like it's fresh it's a performance for one and it's like this naturally sculpted Wonderland that he lives in with all these mosquitoes that he doesn't notice under his durian trees where you can do mathematics why does he not notice them is it because you want in there for 30 yeah wow we can't focus on it for 30 years he needs to get one of those Therma cells ever seen those things no oh they're amazing yeah if you go to anywhere where there

► 01:07:29

mosquitoes are particularly aggressive because like if you go to Alaska you've been to Alaska before sir one thing about Alaska that's fantastic is the mosquitoes are fucking rabbit they are like pit bulls me and my friend Ari went fishing in Alaska and I am not exaggerating old are no we didn't we spread ourselves up with fucking horrible chemicals are probably took a year off my life but when you step out of the car I mean when we opened up look at that that's that's like legitimately what it's like we opened up the door yeah to the car and within three to five seconds there was a hundred mosquitoes inside the car it's fucking insane because they're only alive for like a month rights only warm enough for them to exist for a short period of time so they're insanely aggressive so anyway there's this product called thermos L that Outdoors people use and what it is is it's like a small pad that looks like a large square like piece of gum or something like that and you slide this

► 01:08:29

blue pad under this screen and then you ignite it by pressing a button this little heating element goes off and it has like a little fuel canister that keeps this very tiny fire it's an immensely small like you have to look in to see if it's lit right it's probably not even a fire it's like somehow another element is heating up this fuel it takes a long time to go through a small canister but it emits this very fine mist and this Mist will keep a like an 18 square foot get out window of protection how many doses dude it is impossible to be in the outdoors with it without it rather once you've had it so I I found out about it from my friends in Alberta they they were the first to turn me on about it they live in Alberta and the same thing in Alberta the mosquitoes are super super aggressive because it's only warm enough for them to exist for short period of time I'm so glad I did this show dude a thermos L is amazing and you can strap them to your hip you just put one on right there it mean you don't even smell

► 01:09:29

it and but the mosquitoes don't want to have nothing to do with it they just keep them they try some like really aggressive ones holy fuck I'm gonna give up I mean it's amazing it makes being in the woods incredibly bearable like I meet my daughter's want to go camping in the backyard one night there was bugs out there and I said I got the solution I when I got my thermos L let that sucker put it there everybody's out alcohol sleeping just no problems at all bugs and civilians can purchase them yeah well it's not it's not toxic okay thank but it's super easy to use that's it right there yeah so that thanks to that blue thing and the top that's a piece of the thermos L the chewing gum looking stuff these slide under that screen and when it gets used up that blue thing becomes all white it's so easy to use man so I can go to like come Chuck I just to try it out they have a large one there that looks like a lamp see that one that looks like a lamp up their fucking dude those things are the shit I hate mosquitoes thermos l so way to go

► 01:10:29

I mean I don't look Google the negative consequences to see that see that one he's got like pouches on the side of the container one pouch you'd have liked your little extra fuel canisters and the other side you'd probably have some of those little extra thermos L pads but one little thing one of those little blue things last for like eight hours so I mean one of the great questions is some of the most beautiful land in a place like Maui is mosquito ridden yeah and so some that work could you change land value you have to burn them all the time and I don't know if it's something you want to breathe in all the time okay yeah I just don't I don't know enough about negative consequences but I've used them a bunch of times and they've never even given me a headache or anything find out if whatever's in thermos L is like safe for long term exposure as you're not supposed to use in a confined space okay there is some sort of stuff you're obviously breathing yeah for sure but permanent permisson paramedicine I don't know how

► 01:11:29

nothing you know I've asked this before but when we were kids and you read comic books about like radiation they always helped people turn people into fucking superheroes yeah you never hear that shit in real life you have to get lucky and get like some homeotic mutations so you've got like yeah straight arms coming out of your head never does anything good no no Mia well me out of mutations and bugs are really cool yeah and bugs that I mean in in human beings like I mean it's I guess is he's too many ones that probably yeah that was the thing about crispr that it's going to bring up earlier for sure they're doing that right there making humans yeah I mean that's the thing about like having this ethical moral stance on the use of something like crisper to genetically alter fetuses yeah that if you do that you really if you have an opposition to altering embryos were like that's immoral it's not something we want to be a part of this yeah but that's the problem there

► 01:12:29

he passed that the Russians don't give a fuck about that did you see that movie Icarus no God damn you have to see that movie all right sir I had Brian Fogle on last week who is the director and producer of this documentary on the doping the Russian state-sponsored doping program right Russians don't play dude they don't play they had a state-sponsored doping program that was kind of over seed by Putin like down the line like there's a direct chain of command and the whole entire Russian team is Sochi was on drugs all of them the guy who engineered the whole thing like the main scientist is in the United States now in protective custody in hiding and Putin is trying to drag him back to Russia by stealing the the homes from his family stealing his wives home turned him into homeless people and some sort of a lure to get him to sacrifice himself to come back for the health and safety of his family he remember what happened when Saddam did that

► 01:13:29

didn't work out so good yeah but cell phone video that's when you know you fucked up the cell phone video footage of your execution like oh that's that's saddam's execution but I think he learned his son and his son-in-law's back like don't worry it's all forgiven in the sudden laws came back and they go really was the it yes and I was pretty skilled and I'll dress was a different Stitch situation then no no the self I mean that was that was a very strange situation because he actually was the only guy was like his shit together when I was being executed yeah you like you understood the game he accepted the guy yeah it's like all right but also he's probably like Jesus Christ how many people do I kill I guess the I think after you've killed like a few hundred thousand people you probably like I probably deserve it yeah I'm I'm well

► 01:14:18

don't you ever seen Christopher Hitchens narrating the original bath party

► 01:14:27

I don't know what to call it theatrical video where like half the bath party was called out as being revealed Traders and then the other half of the bath party was giving given side arms with which to execute them making them complicit in the founding murder and it was all filmed oh I'm aware of this but I didn't know the Christopher Hitchens narrated well he did something where he he brought it to prominence right I think I was aware of it with just Arabic I couldn't tell what was going on okay and then he actually said okay look you have to appreciate well this is a topic that I think you know be good to talk about I don't know that I've ever talked about it but message violence is the glue that keeps a lot of societies together and we don't study it or talk about violence that is specifically constructed to be theatrical

► 01:15:20

like public beheadings that we mean yeah that would be a kind of message violence or for example forcing families to pay for the ammunition with which their family members were executed to make them complicit and emphasize their weakness mmm all of the stuff that the Mind goes to horror movies to explore is often used structurally particularly in the Middle East so you know Isis for example the Jordanian pilot video which I find that many people haven't seen the whole point of it was that the pilots were raining down death and to particular forms rubble and fire when people in the ground

► 01:16:14

and Isis captured one of the Jordanian pilots and decided that they would theatrically execute him with a version of exactly these two things that he was meeting out from the air and so the whole point of it was to create the Cinematic imagery to sear into people's mind what it meant to oppose Isis that Isis was in fact just in a sort of I-4 and I kind of way and you know my belief is that we don't understand the role that message violence plays part because we are now denying it if you think about Vietnam we have all of these images that were burned into all of our minds with Pulitzer prize-winning photographs but in the modern era you don't have images like that from Iraq hmm because there was a there was a decision that we could not afford in

► 01:17:14

some sense to have the kind of opposition that we had to be at Nam when people said Lee said wait a minute you're doing what in my name there's a there's an issue that is always puzzled me and this issue is people that lean left people that consider themselves progressives have a very distinct very obvious bias against criticizing Islam criticizing Islamic terrorism criticizing Islamic suppression of women you know that these that criticizing these cultures right under the guise of not wanting to promote islamophobia and things along those lines and I've always wondered how much of what that is is a fear of reprisal of speaking out against them is terrifying so what they do instead is embrace the the cultural differences that these people exhibit concentrate instead

► 01:18:14

on the positive aspects of their community and the good things about Muslim culture and Islamic culture and not really does not bring it up at all like you very rarely hear people on the left talk about how oppressive and horrific some of the conditions that women and homosexuals are forced to live in in Muslim cultures right now I've always wondered if that's what that is like there's a fee because no one in modern day no no one ideology is more brutal in the reprisal I mean they kill apostates right they kill people who leave if you join you can join no one stopping them their help the whole idea of spreading Islam is that you should be proselytizing you should be getting people to join because it is the only truth is the only way to go but once you do join your in like you're not allowed to leave the first of all I'm going to Let's actually do this one I think it's important okay but they didn't start that

► 01:19:14

we just started this so far as I know so if you go to filters are no no we don't we don't proselytize but the once you're in you're in really yeah if you go to Deuteronomy I think says something to the effect of if someone comes to you and says hey let's worship God's not known to the fathers set upon them with the stone before anyone else gets there but a you supposed to do that to someone who is already converted to if you're in right if you're in if you're in and somebody says hey let's go worship other gods you're supposed to kill them what if that so that's interesting right so like so it's an old idea it's an old idea and it's not an Islamic idea the Jewish idea in my opinion okay but it does exist today primarily so I asked my Rabbi about this she's and she said yeah male Rabbi oh yeah you progress motherfucker you look at you know I have actually I like I'm proud of this I have a rabbi who happens to be female okay like I don't get how she born female I wasn't one of them

► 01:20:12

she's a woman all Rabbi allegedly they're all women Caitlyn Jenner's already incendiary topics do you want to live no no no let's just turn everything up to 11 okay come on man I'm a comedian all right I don't have a boss well in three minutes I'm about to be a Target okay you're no targeting female rabbit yeah so her point was yeah and we don't execute anybody because in effect that portion of the code never runs so the Jews have figured out how to have bad code that is almost permanently inoperative again if I could stop you there for a second one of the unique things about Jews is that there are so many Jewish people that I know that still considered themselves Jewish but are almost totally atheist yeah like my friend Ari like he was doing this video recently where our this podcast recently was we're doing

► 01:21:12

challenge what we can't drink or smoke pot or do anything for a month and we have to do 15 hot yoga classes and he's going crazy and screaming during his podcast I am a Jewish performer and I live in New York City I'm supposed to be doing drugs I'm supposed to be drinking I like drinking but he's he's the biggest atheist I've ever met in my life right or if not an atheist he's certainly at the very least agnostic at the very least he's definitely not a someone who kills letters himself a religious person yeah but he was he was and he escaped the the claws of it when he was young but it's Jews many times think of himself it's almost a tribe as much as it is a religion like if you sit down and Corner most Jews that I know about like how much of the talmud do you follow how much how much of the Old Testament do you think is legit how much of the these these teachings do you think are imperative for everyday living there's a vast majority don't

► 01:22:12

have they not connected to any of it if you threaten anybody following the Old Testament you wouldn't recognize them as a Jew right right right like like we have to kill the apostate right I used to live in an ultra-orthodox neighborhood in Jerusalem and at some point I was writing on the Sabbath my final list for leaving and the kids in the building next door started shouting in Hebrew it is forbidden to write on the Sabbath kill him whoa and the parents had the consi knock it off like the ultra-orthodox parents so they wanted to kill you because you were writing because it was literally that's that was you know I was violating a bunch of little monsters no Mom's ours is the word you're looking bastards oh anyway yeah so Jews are big into observance but part of the relationship is you get to question things at a much deeper level than in most religions and

► 01:23:12

you know I would say know six or seven rabbis well enough to ask the question about their belief structure none of them believed in the character of God from the Old Testament hmm so how do they sort of rationalize the whole thing well that's the whole point is that you know you have layers of abstraction and you know if you're really stupid for example do you believe that the Supreme Court is nine black-robed super Geniuses who can channel the original intent of the founding fathers think of wizards yeah okay just like wizard well then and that's it I mean you there's a grown-up way of loving your country and there's a childish way of loving your country and there's a grown-up way of believing in your religion and a childish one right and the childish one is like yeah it's all literally but what is the grown-up way of believing in a religion

► 01:24:02

well I mean in part and it's got a lot of hidden instructions it's it's not resolved so that you have these sort of dialectical tensions that see if like Ethel guidelines as opposed to like yes not telling you exactly what down from on high and giant stone tablets well you know Thou shalt not kill but Thou shalt not kill has to go up against an admonition to kill right right into these things are not resolved and there

► 01:24:33

but I'm trying to swim back up stream to your original point about Islam we're going to get waylaid here if what we do we leave Israel or Jews drifting there's an answer to this and I used to know it but I forgot it what is the reason why so many European Jews have won Nobel prizes so many European Jews are insanely intelligent like what is is there some the modern social justice answer not because we cheated physics I don't want that answer it's a joke that's a silly answer no no but you know they're fucking smart like why why are so many insanely intelligent people European Jews

► 01:25:14

so you is this hard for you to answer being a Jew yeah a little like if you asked me about well it let's do a different one okay okay so from 1897 to and 1987 you had all of these different countries winning the Boston Marathon

► 01:25:33

then from 1987 to the president basically to its right Canyon Ethiopia may be a Korean guy wins it or something mmm why is that well now you have this really uncomfortable thing which is is it culture is it that those guys in East Africa just have heart is it because they really run to to school every day 26 miles people said that then turns out they take the bus like everybody else so there can be a genetic

► 01:26:04

predisposition in trade-off space mmm there can be a cultural premium so when you have the top marriage prospects do you marry them off to the to the richest or the smartest so in Judaism there is some weird way in which intellectual Prestige proxies for material wealth so if you have somebody's insanely smart not very rich it can be very prestigious to marry your your daughter let's say to that student of the Torah hmm so there are all sorts of cultural strange aspects of this is it because money-lending was prescribed and forbidden to Christians that this particular facility with mathematics was highly selected for when nobody else was selecting for it you know I don't know what the answer is but I do know that like in my case getting a PhD

► 01:27:04

mathematics using an Ivy League education for that or in my brother's case giving up an Ivy League education to make a point standing up for social justice these are sort of self-destructive things in most cultures standing up for social justice against social justice Warriors what level are we in his in his 1987 he stood up because a Jewish fraternity was using black strippers for sexual entertainment to lure in incoming freshman and he said okay this is you know this is some sort of class-oriented thing where we're exploiting wow this is a different situation no no that yeah so he had to leave Penn University of Pennsylvania to death threats wow so you know this is like the great irony of my brother's situation is that for people don't know who your brother Bret Weinstein is

► 01:27:59

Weinstein Harvey Weinstein Brett Weinstein right Brett was the guy that was the part of the whole ever gain College Fiasco he's been on this podcast twice I suggest if you're interested you can either Google his name and get the story from a multitude of sources or listen to the original podcast where he'd sort of laid it out it was before the settlement with the college before he wound up leaving and you know I really hope that he goes the Jordan Pederson route meaning that he starts putting up these lectures and some of these ideas that he has just putting them up on online not just putting videos up and you know patry I know he's got a patreon page now correct yeah and that which is a great way to do it too but Jordan is making more money from doing that then he ever did from college yeah from my teaching University I want to support you know the other thing is that we have to make the case because he can't because it will look wrong right hire this motherfucker yeah alright that motherfucker yeah I mean he's amazing he's a straight-up

► 01:28:59

yes I have a recommendation for him from his old advisor who I think you know said he's the top student in 40 Years of advising and it just we have to recognize that if you want this stuff to stop you have to make it not pay to drive super smart people who are courageous enough to be open in their thinking and his shirt becomes hard and you go yeah and to share and to you know to share their thoughts and fundamentally if we drive these people to Extinction it's on us yeah and so my question is hey University of Chicago Harvard Princeton Stanford where are you yeah I meets people are terrified of repercussions right side of but they they think that he's a he's a guy from Evergreen State so he's lower-ranked like you know what let me let me use my tiny megaphone to say he's not lower rank he's un-fuckin'-believable e smart look at his work

► 01:29:59

on elongation of telomeres in laboratory animals where he predicted what Nobel Laureate Carol greider found from first principles that the mice that are being used to test our drugs have wildly exaggerated telomere lengths giving them amazing capacities for histological repair but pop possibly putting drugs to Market that shouldn't be there this is somebody you want to be taking intellectually serious and stop treating us like the clown act that they're running and this just happens to be a victim well Evergreen College is an amazing example of what can go wrong if you let these crazy children sort of dictate the the way human beings are allowed to behave and the way this course takes place on campus to The Cliff Notes what I was going to say they wanted to have a day of absence they've had traditionally had day of absence where people of color would take the day off to school for where people would miss them sort of like did they engineer that Nell a a day without Mexicans was a movie right

► 01:30:58

it would shut down just tell you right now LS shuts down without Mexicans but to but instead of doing that the social justice Warrior mentality that thinks that every white man is some sort of an oppressor and you need to figure out a way to eradicate them from the world they decided to go the opposite route and force White staff and white students to stay home your brother rightly protested saying that is inherently racist like what you're proposing is is written anti-racist yes he's an tyrande the problem is that the diversity movement which has now become the equity movement is actually racist racist against white people it's I mean I only want to say it's Reverse Racism and racism against white it's openly racist dopamine exact reverse reaction there is either racism or no racism that whole proposal that racism against white people is Reverse Racism let's just let's call this is a cult in the way you know that it's a cult is you ask for the definition of racism and if somebody tells you it's power

► 01:31:58

plus Prejudice and therefore certain groups can't be racist because they have no power that's how you know somebody's in the cult because if you look it up in the dictionary it doesn't say anything like that another one would be gender has nothing to do with sex go to the Oxford English Dictionary look at the difference between three a versus three be gender and sex have been closely tied and sometimes in like the 1940s a couple of fields in the u.s. started using gender to be Behavior sex to be you know that which is your dedicated genotype/phenotype what is going on is that these people are changing the definition of words in order to push a cult into the exact place where it must not go it must not go in the diversity office it must not go in HR

► 01:32:49

you cannot have this openly racist openly sexist cult in the place where the which is the immune system yeah so that's that's that's the key thing is that we're used to thinking of our immune system as being there to protect us but if you think about an autoimmune disease it's when your immune system starts attacking the self that you're in real trouble so learn the signs and learn the tells you don't have to sign up for Jordan Peterson's post-modernism just ask somebody whether black people can be racist against whites in as soon as you hear Power Plus Prejudice you know you're talking to a cult member as soon as you hear the gender and sex have nothing to do with each other right and you have recourse to dictionaries and you start talking about the history and somebody starts to well that's your white fragility as your white privilege and why are you in denial why aren't you accepting allyship okay suddenly it's like okay it's Xena in the volcanoes and the clams again yeah it is yeah it is

► 01:33:48

and well one one great piece of evidence about that was this whole Google memo thing the Google memo thing the difference between what that guy actually wrote on the memo and what was published in so many different Publications so many different online websites is just straight-up libelous like that guy if I mean I know he's gonna Sue Google but he could probably sue a host of people once he's done with that because they changed what he wrote and turned him into this horrible evil sects as person to the point where the CEO of Goo of you you too brother was saying that she read it and it made her sad at the whole thing made her sad well he wrote a piece based on why people of different genders are more inclined to gravitate towards specific things he made an error how what was the error this is the error that he made was that he used he reserved term neuroticism yeah the Big Five personality inventory where it is a reserve term denoting a particular psychometric and so rather than saying men are

► 01:34:48

less conscientious

► 01:34:51

then women women are more neurotic women are more neurotic I actually brought that up with a kind he regretted it he regretted bringing that cause I told him I said that's my only criticism is like that's a derogatory term but again you know I not quite remembered that the Big Five personality inventory you know is what openness conscientiousness extraversion agreeableness and neuroticism but you know when you see something that careful I mean most people just didn't read it they went with like the headline right so that's the first thing you should guess somebody that's smart is probably using a turn if I say moral hazard to you and you don't know economics you're going to think oh wow what is the moral hazard is that like reefer nothing to do with that as a reserve turn right so if I keep talking about rent-seeking or moral hazard and I'm talking about landlords you know or somebody offering your kidded do be after school right right right so so that was like the first intellectual failure and I just have been dealing with this where I talk about power laws and statistics which is a particular type of probability

► 01:35:51

of the distribution somebody says jeez the power powerful people in our country are so protected and privileged why should we why do we need laws to protect them like what oh you said power law like that has nothing to do with there used to be this character on Saturday Night Live whose name was Emily litella played by Gilda Radner and they bring her in and she was hard of hearing what's all this I hear about a death penalty the death have problems enough as it is and then she drift for 2 minutes in the death penalty oh that's entirely different never mind so she was like trying to remember like violins on television can lead classical music kid a rather was awesome she was off Roseanne Roseannadanna oh God you couldn't do any of this stuff anymore you couldn't you really couldn't yeah but solving back to the do more things like checking our tree and it's exploding here you know the thing about what he did was he was trying to write a

► 01:36:51

diversity memo if you lie about the differences between men and women what are your odds that you will be able to hack a solution to get getting all the brilliant women in our country who care about stem into the workforce this is what we need to do there's no shortage of brilliant women you know I've collaborated with them I know they're there we need to figure out as a society do we need to pay women more so that we can get them out of working in the home and taking care of older you know parents and young children during their prime years we need to be very creative about the actual differences between men and women should we have a rule not equal pay for equal work but equal pay for unequal salary negotiation if we don't allow ourselves point please please elaborate on that because that is an issue with why women sometimes make less than men is that they don't have the same sort of aggressive salary negotiating tendencies that a lot of men do aggressive testosterone-driven sort of I mean there's all sorts of things

► 01:37:51

you know again I don't want to mansplain any definitely it's not a big issue to me no but look at check all right short story called The nincompoop in which it's a an employer and a domestic worker in his home and he talks to her about all of her wages and then he starts taking away a little bit by little bit for you know she broke a cup and you were a little bit late and he whittles her compensation down to nothing and she accepts it

► 01:38:18

and then he says the employer says you you stupid fool I've just cheated you out of your entire wages I'm going to give them to you but understand that this is how an employer cheats an employee hmm and you're just like whoa so this is an old Russian speaking a truth which is don't allow yourself to get taken advantage of now you could say that's really horrible because it's called the nincompoop

► 01:38:44

right or you could say actually that was an attempt to talk about a problem about needing to be more aggressive and more assertive so you know getting back to the D'Amore issue D'Amore needed to set this thing up at Google differently so I took my son to the local pinball arcade and just think of it as a bunch of workstations where nobody's getting paid instead you're paying for the privilege of staring at this thing for hours with the bells and lights doing something with balls and mechanical systems there are no they're not a lot of women

► 01:39:21

trying to integrate the pinball arcade because it's a loser activity all right that's how the Indians for losers yeah I play Pinball I'm a loser I know this thing's okay now my unknowns a pinball arcade yeah it's got a restaurant pinball in the back and hurt me no no no I'm just joking the point is this is something which is low Prestige it's anti compensated yeah and and decompensated we're pointing right it's just like you're just playing money into the machines so my point is is that what D'Amour said was it's not cognitive ability you idiots it's interest in temperament which is hugely liberating right

► 01:40:05

if it's not basically cognitive ability if men are as smart as women but men can do something for hours and hours often uncompensated in a kind of robotic monomaniacal tunnel Focus kind of a way is that

► 01:40:21

necessarily a great thing what happens to be compensated now it's only a great thing if that's what you choose to go into for a career I don't I program and I hate it I'm not your little programming yeah what do you want to do well play that funky Indian violent thing exactly but but I'll spend hours doing something like that right but the point is that coding turns me into like this autistic Spectrum a guy I get speech app tap knee again I don't want to say anything against do you guys feel like as you see the more you get into coding you sort of adopt a code mine so he started talking to me while I'm coding all right you say hey Eric you want to go out for a beer I'll start say maybe later really yeah what if I'm doing some being annoying and I'm distracting you from your exactly right right I see you as annoying yes I'm trying to fall asleep as annoying to if that helps well if it's if you're doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu and I

► 01:41:20

- hey Joey won't get free beer like I got my hands full choke broke yeah so you know the the issue is that a lot of us you know who have male Hardware male software recognize that we get obsessive compulsive we're not always thinking about reward right it's not necessarily the most attractive set of characteristics when I do math I'm definitely wildly on the Spectrum and I'm Proud by the way I'm proud of it it's not like right you know it's not derogatory term and you're actually talking about yourself when I'm socializing yes I'd like to think that I'm fairly normally fairly normal fairly normal yeah but when I'm doing math yeah I don't want to be right I want to kill that problem one think through that thing I want to have that right theorem one that way with I'm not on the Spectrum in any way but I'm that way with writing for sure if I'm writing it someone came over to talk to me about yeah I can't talk you know I mean right mean that loan my wife will you know come over and she'll say wow

► 01:42:20

you really sharp with me like huh what I barely even noticed that you were she's needy no well the thing is is that we've collaborated

► 01:42:31

on you know she brought

► 01:42:34

geometry from Quantum field Theory into economics and so

► 01:42:40

at the level of you know she's really she occupies brain space with me but she will kick out of that space if the kids need something whereas I'll just say I'm sure the kids will be fine it's just like you know they're two years old Eric there's yeah they're not going to be able to take care of themselves right you know and so she'll have a much more she always has her compassion running whereas I can turn it off turn it on for periods of time when I'm focused there are these differences and you know I think we need in part to teach women how to under deliver or deliver yeah how so well if you can't risk under delivering

► 01:43:19

then you can't shoot for the you know you can't swing for the fences is often you want to make sure that you're going to be able to not disappoint some men very often like hey I thought I could do it didn't quite work out it's going to take another couple of weeks that's a weird way of putting it though because that's a results-oriented way of putting it instead of an ambition oriented what I'm trying to say you like if the real secret of life is over promise over deliver

► 01:43:44

I don't think it is though so that it is assumed that you use out when in a bid if somebody else is going to promise more than you and then if you can't over-deliver given that you've already over promised then you can't actually Delight people so that they're going to want to do multiple go rounds with it's like a economy of bullshit though like do we really want even promote that like why not just be why why not just be honest about what you can do because you don't know what you can do you know this is the thing that I'll be honest about what you think you can do no no okay but let's use it in a practical sense okay like like so this was the whole why didn't I bring you a car yeah and I say hey man I think the Transmissions gone on his fucking thing do you know how to fix one of those is and you like definitely I'm gonna do it I can do it but meanwhile you don't write I don't want to go to you man well I want to go to the guy down the street level but you've given in there for 25 years you just sticks and Lee giving me the car no I've asked you know I now lie to me now

► 01:44:44

go home I give you the cardia sister know what I'm doing I'm trying to open this thing I don't know right I better learn Transmissions fast right so now I go into crazy mode because now I'm terrified this is called crossing the Adaptive Valley what if it's something you can't learn fast like Brazilian jiu-jitsu look what if I come to you and I say hey are you a Jiu-Jitsu expert Eric and you're like yes I am like okay cool why don't you meet me in two weeks and we're going to do Jujitsu and you have two weeks to go fucking crazy and learn all you know about Georgia Tech so what we're talking about now is this is not a trivial skill

► 01:45:22

fixing transmissions is no

► 01:45:25

let's slow it down okay you have to be able to have a feel for what adaptive valleys you can cross okay I see what you're saying right so so if your other words if you just say like hey I could run this country country and I ran businesses I brought this is Hells yeah then you're going to have a problem because you really have to learn Washington in order to run it right and if you have no plan to do that then you're just bullshitting your way through everything like hypothetical yeah like this hypothetical this situation hypothetically okay now but my point is that there are lots of things that don't have those characteristics where something is really hard but you may have to invent something in order to get out of it so there's you know dumb enough to get in smart enough to get out is kind of the magic formula hmm bite off more than you can chew but if you actually you know feel calm

► 01:46:25

old you can summon the will you can summon the intellect you can summon your friends your resources to somehow get across the Adaptive value but isn't the problem that it leaves open the possibility won't be able to get across that Valley we for has put someone who is an expert in the field and who's worked very hard through apprenticeship through schooling whatever it is to get to become an expert in this field can tell you definitively yes Eric I can fix your computer I fix computers for a living I know exactly how to attach a motherboard to let's at least agree that you're making the point that you know don't over promise yes don't under deliver yeah sky but we all know that we all know that we all know that that's the general good advice so but you're advising women to do something that they shouldn't but here's the problem I'm trying to give the furry and advise the more women that over-promised and under-delivered the more we're people are going to go you know what's not what I'm tired of fucking her these chicks don't deliver I don't think that that's right I don't think

► 01:47:25

I think that what's happening is that there are certain characteristics that are very valuable in low variance processes there certain things that you want every time to work out okay like well Chargers child rearing or particular kinds of surgery yes right it's a simple app and appendectomy I don't want to get fancy just do the app and appendectomy and don't screw it up right okay okay so those are low variance processes now you've got some sort of crazy conjoined twins that nobody's ever seen before

► 01:48:01

right and question is what are we going to do right well do you think that that is potentially within your ability even though nobody's ever successfully pulled it off before

► 01:48:13

you have to over promise to some extent like there's a guy who's going to try to do a head transplant you know we we had some of you a head transplant with monkeys in the early 70s Robert white or something yeah so you know this came out of Jim Watson said this thing which I think is just brilliant which is if you're going to do something amazing you are by definition unqualified to do it that's Watson Crick and Watson that's right now the point was is that those guys did not know enough biochemistry to do the double helix

► 01:48:45

but why do you think that that's good advice to give to women to over proper over promise I still can't stand it okay

► 01:48:51

if you cannot over promise you may not be able to win a bidding war for the right to do a project

► 01:49:03

if you're playing it very very safe

► 01:49:06

and other people are saying I can get that done faster and cheaper

► 01:49:11

see the cynic in me says you're telling people to bullshit

► 01:49:18

I like to know whether or not someone can actually deliver on what we're talking with Bill Gates talked to IBM he didn't have an operating system he said that he did that created a panic situation

► 01:49:30

how often do you have a product and you announce the date for the product before the engineering is done but are you talking about outliers and he talking about people that pulled things off that you know the average person probably doesn't mean how many people talking about Wayside how many people do over-promised and this is what I'm trying to get it yeah which is if you value regularity

► 01:49:52

then under-promise over-deliver right

► 01:49:56

if you value Shackleton like outliers

► 01:50:00

you may have to over promise and over deliver so that wait wait wait okay let's go and you may have to risk over-promising and under-delivering

► 01:50:10

another thing women are reverse that oh absolutely so women are averse to bullshitting people absolutely they are much I like them might not hiring chicks I'm gonna start hiring chicks for the reason you're telling them to not be the way they are but we're failing to communicate you know another no no I'm just I'm just playing Devil's Advocate and picking you apart a little bit that's okay but I think in other words when when you start hearing people say why aren't there any more female founders of Billion Dollar Plus tech companies my feeling is that a lot of those people who do found such companies are in this kind of fast and loose outlier idiom

► 01:50:49

and very often females specifically because of the crazy demands of child-rearing which is like something you cannot screw up you have to be on all the time you have to be incredibly regular have a very strong ethic of not screwing up which is positive I don't want to say that it's negative but I'm not saying that it's negative what I am saying is that if you are not happy because you were not represented in the outlier category understand that not screwing up is not a behavior pattern that leads to outlier level results I see what you're saying I see what you're saying so they almost have to go away from their Natural Instincts and adopt a different pattern of behavior to achieve extraordinary success yeah I mean I would like to tell a lot more men hey you can't keep promising and failing to come through Mmm Yeah so you know it would be better if we had higher regularity from some men who chronically over promise

► 01:51:48

been chronically under deliver and we had more women who were trying to swing for the fences if the feeling is why are we not represented at the highest level of certain kinds of activities so all right so what I'm trying to get at is that we are not currently feeling safe enough

► 01:52:09

to have these style of conversations where we're saying look to what extent are we holding ourselves back are we holding you back what is it that we need to be doing or are we talking about the glass floor as well as the glass ceiling so you know the bricklayer unions that is a famous example where if you look for pictures of bricklayers you'll generally see a bunch of guys very few women and there's no complaint that these have not been integrated so there are ways in which you don't find women in the pinball arcades you don't find them in bricklayers unions and you find fewer of them founding you know multi billion-dollar tech companies so how do we feel about that I don't know I mean the key question is if you want to see change you have to be risking having a real conversation about these things and what do more tried to do was to decouple intelligence

► 01:53:04

from this problem and say it's much more temperament and interest and the person who made that point on Dave Rubin show a month before the Google memo leaked was my wife

► 01:53:16

and she didn't get attacked because she said look you know I was in an incredibly you know basically an all-male environment I wasn't happy because of the temperament and interest when it got highly competitive I didn't want to spend my energy and my time fighting no she has she has like a noble quality result in economics and her feeling was it's just not worth it to get into some multi-decade pissing match with incredibly powerful people now how am I feeling about this is those guys are going down we're going to fight them you know I like book came out called the physics of Wall Street that I encourage women to read the chapter called a new Manhattan Project and the epilogue discusses her contribution and you know in fact we sort of walked away from it in part because she didn't want to go to war and there's nothing wrong with not wanting to go to war

► 01:54:16

but that is a very big temperamental difference that is not a cognitive difference and that's what I think do more was saying now I think you and I would both agree that we would never want anyone to discriminate against women for a job that they're qualified for and that they're looking to get into if they're good at it we would like to see people who would like to see in a quality of opportunity right more than that more than that yeah I mean if you think about how many women are offline and you think of it as like just stop thinking about in terms of like social good and talk about it is yeah like when you like an oil field that hasn't been tapped just their neurological I see what you're saying so just some numbers essential yeah right like you know you're just talking about Jews and physics so one quarter of one percent of the world's population of 125 percent of the Nobel prizes in physics where they're about right very few asian females have Nobel prizes

► 01:55:15

if I were trying to figure out like with oil fields I wouldn't go to Texas to try to find more oil because I figured it pretty well picked over I try to find some other place it's like I'm going to find Great Waves not in Hawaii but I'm going to go to the Arctic right so let's say asian females have a huge percentage of the world's neurons basically untapped if you want to make tons of money if you want to cure cancer if you want to do all these things figure out how to bring those neurons fully online so it's not just a question of nobody wants to keep them out there's a huge prize to be won for figuring out the puzzle right but is has it not been proved that gender and sex have a role in what people are attracted to her interested in so why should we assume that just because we have these systems right like whatever their economic systems whether it's you know starting a business or whether it's working in Tech why should we assume that women would want to do that why should we encourage them to do that if they're not interested in it

► 01:56:15

why do we put so much value in it just because it generates incredible amount of money do you think that may be what we're looking at is natural patterns there's natural patterns where I mean this is what D'Amour argued that men gravitate towards certain things more often than women and that was one of the things that was so disturbing to me that was overlooked about his memo he had a full page and a half dedicated to trying to encourage and various ways to try to encourage women to get into Tech right nobody talked about that the other thing that they didn't do is no one may not know one but many of the people that republished his work and took Snippets of it they didn't publish the citations right or the bibliography yeah which is like Reno it's immoral yeah it's immoral it's but it's what it is is back to your cult analogy yeah these people are in a cult and this was a challenge to the ideology of the cult so but but look let's look at it from the felt experience and the felt experience is

► 01:57:15

if you're if you've already struggled as a woman against incredible odds to be in Tech to begin with you know that there's somebody Whispering a she's not very good they only hired her because she was female and you're sick of this shit right so you have to appreciate that the lived experience of the women inside of Google is that they know that some percentage of those guys who are saying hey I just want to talk about studies are actually pissed off right so they're bullshit detectors are set very very high they think they're hit hearing dog whistles everywhere right and so I don't think we should be blaming women who have been subjected to this as if this is not a real thing there really are dog whistles there really are people who don't want women in Tech and want to go back to an all-boys Club blah blah blah for sure but that's not really what we're saying are we no we aren't I don't think okay no but the issue is what if I

► 01:58:15

need to do some amount some relatively minimal amount of kind of intellectual terraforming to get all of these female neurons to work on all of these amazing problems so what if what if the people who have the answer for it's a cancer or a GI or who knows happen to be female hmm

► 01:58:38

what if I needed to do some things in order to make the environment more attractive like for example programming and teams has to some extent pre-placed Cowboy programming we're just some guy with his code and you know write a set of headphones and he he goes to it okay so that's what he was talking about like what are the to what extent can you actually change the nature of work to bring these extra neurons online mmm now that's the right reason to do this I don't think we should value

► 01:59:11

like what is coding it's some sort of Highly logical very technical person tickety activity if it's highly compensated everybody wants in if it's poorly compensated only people who are sort of addicted to it would want it right and it happens to be sort of high status at the moment and so there's this feeling of okay this must be an all-boys club and maybe it grew up as an all-boys club and maybe it has particular attributes but the thing that I am looking at the may be different from what you're looking at is that I'm thinking about particular high-ability females who have left the game or who have sort of gone into a lower intensity mode because there's just sick of being in an all-male environment so if I can interject you're trying to discourage attrition

► 01:59:58

I'm trying to discourage attrition of the amazing people who have something deep and powerful and important to say so the environment of these places is contrary to them establishing whatever strengths that they have so let me give I would love rather not talk about women and I'd rather talk about something I know very very well which is myself okay so four and a half years ago I gave some talks on physics which were terrifying to me because I wasn't trained as a physicist and they got a lot of attention and publicity at Oxford I don't like the unpleasantness of intellectual one-upsmanship and negging if you will that takes place in particle theory it's a turn-off to me and so I've sort of stayed away for four and a half years because I didn't like how unpleasant and hyper

► 02:00:51

like exaggeratedly masculine it was why do you think that exists well because it's a huge prize right I mean if you're trying to get gain Einsteins mantle it's still a game worth winning because you know Einstein was times about of the century so it's so because of this huge prize there's also a lot of critical thinking and a lot of criticizing yeah but there's a lot of just wasted bravado yeah there's like a dick measuring contest that does nothing for me hmm okay right and so my point is is that is a guy who's been in mathematics physics economics finance and Tech that's five hyper male Fields there are some of them that I just can't stand because they're to exaggeratedly mail and you you feel like criticism is exaggeratedly mail that just criticism it's just like snarky stupid mean-spirited non-constructive team Town's main girl show

► 02:01:48

female show maybe Housewives of Beverly Hills that's pretty pretty take Downey yeah that's a different version so this is made you avoid these particular person who makes lots of us men and you think women there would be more so likely to avoid and you would lose the contribution trying to say a lot of these Brilliant Minds that part of the problem is that every time you have an extremely

► 02:02:14

kind of overly like an exaggeratedly toxic culture

► 02:02:20

you get attrition from people who are really good at it or just don't like going to work make sense and putting that on women is not fair right I don't want to do labor economics at Harvard for the same reason it right it's a really unpleasant I understand that once they've actually gotten to the game right but is that what keeps them from pursuing the game or is it natural inclinations towards other Pursuits and then it's a mixture it's a mixture right the most things right well this is this is really what what D'Amour was saying is you saying there's a 50-50 default Baseline that you've adopted

► 02:02:55

I don't think I James D'Amour don't think that we should accept 50/50 we should figure out what percentage of this has to do with interest and inclination and that should be an adjustment and which science has to do with prejudice in right so break it into two components Rafa 50 it's a plus b where a is the natural amount that it should favor one gender or sex over the other and then B is the extent of systematic bias that's a very analytical and I think a very exactly what you think it is exactly right you're one of the very few people that have broken it down like that it became this weird ideological struggle but I got into tremendous trouble because I let off a tweet that was about biologists yeah right because Richard Dawkins had just been D platformed at Berkeley where he was going to speak as a biologist my brother yeah what was that about why did they D platform David Lee because you know he said something uncharitable about it

► 02:03:55

which we have to get back to ya right but the key point was is that I had three biologists D'Amour Dawkins and Weinstein who had all bendy platform so I let off a tweet about you know for God's sake stop teaching people that they should run to HR rather than code which had nothing to do with harassment at all it was really just about seeing a woman who deleted her tweet and I haven't talked about this I'd tell them because I felt that I reacted to her deleted tweet and then I still I still have it on my computer but I didn't want to bring it up and then I was left sort of holding the bag right what was the tweet it was something like dear Google

► 02:04:39

don't teach my daughter to run to HR for Financial Freedom rather than code thanks to Dad and that was interpreted as like oh suck it up if you're being harassed in the workplace uh-huh you know do not suck it up if you were being harassed in the workplace I don't know how to make that clearer but it's about if somebody's talking like a biologist and they're saying oh well there's prenatal testosterone and you know there are these psychometrics and there these are the conserved differences across cultures that's not a reason to go to HR that's a reason to figure out whether the person is making sense not making sense to take them on on the arguments

► 02:05:20

that's I feel very passionately yeah well I think this course in free speech is incredibly important when you distort what that guy was saying and you turn it into this hateful attack on women you've shut down discourse and you discourage anybody else that has any sort of unusual opinion or unusual observation from coming forth because you're essentially you're limiting free speech to free speech that you agree with in this is what happened well I agree with this but think about how difficult it has been you know what soon as I say learn how to over promise hmm and then over deliver

► 02:05:57

one risk under delivering that that can take up 10 minutes like are you telling me to bullshit and not not come through no I'm not saying that I know it all but all of these higher-level points all have lower level misinterpretations right and so you know in this circumstance it's also important to realize that after so many years of putting up with sort of whisper campaigns it is understandable that women are sick of this shit right so that's true to that too right yeah so the key question is are we going to just de platform all the biologists are we going to pretend that there are no differences are we going to pretend that gender and sex have absolutely nothing to do with each other like this sort of fantasy life that you can try to lead in a progressive context is going to destroy the underpinnings of Western civilization and I have nothing against Eastern civilization but I'm an exponent of Western Civilization yeah and you know this gets

► 02:06:56

back to the issue of will we be able to talk anywhere in a safe enough fashion that we can have really meaningful conversations so that we can actually fix these fucking problems right and the only way you're going to fix these problems is if you cut out all this the the ideological biases on the right and the left the male and the female just look at the problem for what it really is well and it's tough and you know we're challenge because we also don't see ourselves but just firing that guy for that memo yeah and then here's the my favorite part my all-time favorite part

► 02:07:35

they invited women to take time off because it was so stressful

► 02:07:40

I mean you are you are reinforcing the worst stereotypes that someone couldn't have you actually read the memo yeah and it was so disturbing to you that you had to take time off you are insanely fragile or you're looking for time off you're looking to take time off either one of those things reinforces the worst stereotypes that people have against women yeah but what if the idea is different what if the idea is that they've actually been experiencing trauma at somebody else's hands that wasn't James D'Amour okay but that's not what about the James D'Amore memo and why have it done right why have it because the trauma wants but you're having it directly in response to that guy's a memo which wasn't in any way derogatory conversation I go to India and I see a bunch of backwards swastikas with dots in them that have nothing to do with Nazis where I'm a fucking trigger where we're going far though we're pretty far away from that let's just talk about the internal memo that we will sense like why why give women off

► 02:08:41

first of all don't fire that fucking guy have a conversation with them and have open discourse the biggest problem was firing him because that stablish has the precedent that truck look I called him up specifically to ask what the hell happened right and you know you've talked to him yes he's a soft-spoken very kind very nice guy James is pretty open so I'm going to say he's wildly introverted almost certainly on the Spectrum for sure and his reaction was I went to a meeting where they tried to teach diversity of the biology was wrong they asked if I had any feedback I told them and he wrote an 18-page metal this is right this is like this is how its brain thinks a crisis why is it coder which is why he was a biologist which is why hand it's actually a champion you're right exactly this is how yeah and it's very important that these people not be made unwelcome because fundamentally we're going to 11 this untried social justice stuff in absolutely everything well not only that he was labeled as a misogynist over and over and over again and you don't even giving the guy a chance to have a

► 02:09:40

you can't have open communication like if you sit down with them instead of firing problem is that it if you say

► 02:09:48

come to the seminar we're going to teach you things the things are wrong and now we want your feedback I'm just setting certain Minds up from this thing for sure yeah that's said and this is something I this is like much harder to bring to this room this room yeah this room what's wrong speaking no because I'm part of this constellation of people but we keep doing this we keep making a mistake in my opinion which is we keep seeing these wrong things that happen in the space and we lose the empathy

► 02:10:20

in some sense because people are are not representing themselves well so I believe having watched my wife and economics that it is really corrosive to go in every day to work in an environment which does not feel welcoming right for sure very toxic okay very bad for so now the idea is that something breaks the camel's back and it's a proximate cause it's not the actual problem

► 02:10:48

right but that's not how they framed it they're saying they're giving people time off because this diversity memo that he put out as very targets versus hard targets right so the idea is that he was a soft target but they may have you know many of these women may have had a manager who passed them over for promotions three times when they've been the major contributor but it's sort of reinforces a rational ideas about his memo without actually reading the core components of it and looked at it objectively why it's why I was outspoken on it I know I know you were right I know you were the point is even while I am outspoken on d'amours you see ya think there's issues I believe you're fundamentally we are in danger of breaking empathy with people who do not express themselves in our idiom and I don't like the fragility I don't like the

► 02:11:33

you know there is this confusion between strong people versus very aggressive people and in general stronger people are much less aggressive right isn't that that's like loud yelling people think that they're winning an argument because they're loud and yelling well it's if you if you watch Like The Jungle Book Shere Khan the tiger is portrayed as unfailingly polite hmm right right because he's just he doesn't need to prove himself right so part of the problem is that we are waiting for the strongest voices

► 02:12:07

to rise above the din hmm and say look we can't be this aggressive about everything all the time right we have to actually think what's a misdemeanor what's a felony what's a foot fault you know so just to boil it all down you don't think there's any issue with inviting women to take time off from a memo that you didn't even disagree with I absolutely think that there's a problem there but I don't think that that's the right place Google sitting on a pile of cash it doesn't need all these people to show up they botched the thing as far as I can tell why but why why tell women take some time off you just got it assaulted

► 02:12:50

you were just attacked by some horrible thing that doesn't discourage or that discourages diversity the discourage the right thing to do would be retained Amor right yes and to say look we need to be able to talk about this right without silencing each other without terrifying each other without assuming that we've heard the others argument have some public speeches where you have people poses ideas and have them discuss right right and make it public so that maybe people can learn from it instead of making it this gigantic campaign against one guy's idea and just destroying his credibility in a very sort of perverse way how about just Google has YouTube they have all the resources in the world I just think we should turn this into an educational experience exactly

► 02:13:37

yeah but the big problem was firing D'Amour yes I because what that did was it puts out a press it said here's how this game should go when you hear somebody say genotype versus phenotype complain yes when you when something makes you uncomfortable about psychometrics complain if somebody starts to disagree with the implicit Association tests and they won't own their own bigotry and bias complain right well that's terrifying well it's sort of the same type of thinking that got your brother in hot water right you never get what I'm trying to get at is that we are be we who understand this problem I think better than others and are willing to talk about it in public are losing empathy because we're so sick of being worn down by these terrible arguments right and so you know can we pop all the way back up to your original point about Islam sure okay

► 02:14:39

you ask the question why is the left seemingly weirdly supportive of practices that include female genital mutilation honor killing Terror at cetera etc etc

► 02:14:54

and I think it has to do with the fact that

► 02:15:00

there is a fundamental inability to discuss these issues because nobody has given us the right tools and language so the issue of political Judaism political Christianity in political Islam

► 02:15:14

is one category and then there's just sort of cultural Judaism culturalist long cultural Christianity now

► 02:15:23

quite honestly

► 02:15:27

you can easily be embedded in a Muslim Community that is not devoted to political Islam and feel that you're very much in another brahmic Faith similar to Christianity and Judaism on the other hand there is a much bigger issue which is that Islam has a totality to it the Judaism no longer has and the Christianity perhaps never had Sam Harris points the out the line Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's Cleaves off the potential for political Christianity at the same level as political Islam so you're dealing with this different object that doesn't quite seem to have the same characteristics as the others and you haven't been given any tools to sort of pull it apart you've also been taught that if you are proud of European civilization

► 02:16:19

that you are like pro-white well white is irrelevant to me I care about European civilization just as I care about European barbarity having sat through European barbarity I'm not going to give up on European civilization you know so in part what you have is you have people who are making the vanilla confusion where they imagine that vanilla you know we use it to mean the absence of anything interesting but in fact it's like the most interesting spice and it's this particular Orchid that's incredibly flavorful so it's like a linguistic mistake well white is that to European civilization I have no attachment to my whiteness I could care less couldn't care less on the other hand I have a huge attachment to Newton to Mozart

► 02:17:08

to the terrible things that happened you know in the in the killing lands in the mid-twentieth century so the evil The Good the imperialism the guilt like that tradition I'm very resonant with The Good the Bad and the Ugly and it is my tradition so when I you know meet somebody coming from China I expect them to be an exponent of Chinese culture well I don't wish to say well I don't have the right to have my own culture because I have to erase myself based on this confusion between this cannon that is incredibly value well and the skin color that is completely irrelevant to me I don't I would much rather have Western Civilization running between the ears of people who don't look anything like me

► 02:17:58

and you know be proud of what the software has produced then have a bunch of people who look like me who don't think in any way that I recognized wherever the original point was why does the left why did progressives fail to criticize the homophobia the sexism the the honor killings all that the horrific acts so let's talk about let's talk about a particular example okay rawa you ever heard of them yes revolutionary Afghan women's Association yeah these are the these are the most badass chicks on the planet they are the ones who taught little girls under the Taliban they are Muslim they are proud Afghan women they have Afghan men who risked their lives these are people who take their lives in their own hands to educate women in one of the most repressive places on Earth

► 02:18:48

that is Islam

► 02:18:50

those are Muslims right right now my point is I try to get people interested in won't you take the side of the Muslims who hold your values right or the values closest to yours and this is where we get into real trouble because for some reason we don't perceive that there is almost an intellectual Civil War within Islam with forces for modernity and forces that are trying to reboot you know from the original texts right so do you think that we associate Islam with maybe even a smaller faction of it than we really understand like the Isis faction the the the the the Taliban like things that were terrified of well people that are throwing gay folks off buildings we saw how weirdly view them is more authentic hmm in some sense and so you don't want to go against the authentic in a version

► 02:19:50

like for example the wahhabist sort of Saudi Arabian variant I never thought was going to be influential over Pakistan because South Asians tended to look down but with you know all of this money that's been spent exporting the sort of particularly text-oriented very literal interpretations I think we've gone down a terrible path where we've sort of weirdly not understood that there is a conflict and that we actually have a dog in this fight in the dog in this fight is those who are trying to create cultural Islam and cleaving off political Islam I don't want to live under Sharia law and I don't want to feel bad about this I don't want to live under anybody's religious law I don't want anyone to live under halacha Jewish law right and this is a Mainstay of Western civilization and when we can't feel comfortable about that which is like well who are you to say whether

► 02:20:50

living under Sharia law the answer is I come from a culture myself it's not like I have no culture this is my culture we do not live under religious law period the end it's fascinating to me how very how many different idea loud ideologies exist and how much they vary and how people can just slot right into those and accept them as the end-all-be-all period and it's it to me just from evolutionary psychology standpoint just looking at the broad spectrum of different ideologies that people slot into it's so fascinating it's so fasting how many different mindsets that people adhere to that are unwavering and rigid and how common it is it's so uncommon to not have an ideology I mean it seems like this idea of what well the numbers that we have of atheists and agnostics in America today I mean is this unprecedented does this the most the largest group of human beings

► 02:21:50

that are looking at things and going maybe nobody has the answer maybe this isn't the right way yeah well II but I also think that a lot of those agnostics and atheists have more religious leanings than they open up to and a lot more of the religious folks are able to run the atheist agnostic program almost perfectly between their ears as well I don't think it's as clean as let's say you know Sam might same Harris might make it that's what I was going to get to next why is it that so many people who are atheists and agnostics adopt religious tendencies in terms of cultural behavior and what they're willing to accept and not willing to say except a lot of the stuff that you see that you're calling earlier when you were saying people that describe racism and you know do you describe it as power and influence

► 02:22:41

these cult member ideas you're a lot of times getting these cult member ideas from people that will tell you that they're not a part of an ideology they're not religious but they're exhibiting dogmatic religious ideology so but that was my question is is it just a thing that we are inherently programmed to slot into yeah yeah yeah this is this is the big point where when Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris got into it the first time on Sam show that was so confusing was well was confusing and Sam would have would have appeared to have won that one pretty decisively because Jordan tried to fold in Fitness to the definition of Truth yeah it does not work right Jordan's point however was really deep and I don't think he did it the service it needed to be to have done I think they would have been better off in person I don't like conversations where people are quiet on Skype and

► 02:23:41

I've refused so far to do any podcast where I'm not looking at the person because I believe that the eye contact too warm yeah it's huge I've done one so far that was with John Anthony West the brilliant egyptologist has just because he's an ill and he lives in New York and it's just hard to get it was awkward yeah I do it if I had to but in general it's like how many fights have happened over Unicode and and ask you exactly just bad Message Board fights how many of them would even take place I are looking at each other like you know each other tone yeah like own social cues has it completely you know that's like with videoconferencing is that you find that you're staring right above the person's eyes just there's no trust yes so yeah it's weird but what I was going to say is that Jordan Peterson's really deep point if I understand it so Jordan if you're out there please correct me is only archetype

► 02:24:36

of the kind found in religion is sufficiently rich in deep to explain why humans behave the way they do there's no scientific theory that's good enough there's no purely logical there's no clearly philosophical tradition so as of the moment we are stuck with deep cultural archetype maybe Shakespeare would be the only thing comparable to the religious cannons and the claim that you're making implicitly in the Jordan is making perhaps more explicitly is that there's something about our brains may be that we were parented and so we need to give the parenting apparatus over to something else I don't know

► 02:25:15

that fundamentally Finds Its way to religion even if the computer that is our brain knows that it's making leaps that don't make sense how old are your kids mine are 12 and 15 do you see when you see them do you see things that are you and your wife and wonder like is this how much of this is genetics how much of this is the mimicking their environment how much of it is both

► 02:25:43

and then there's the sewage generous stuff that comes from God knows where that I have no idea got into their head at all yeah well culture there's media books invent I mean don't don't discount individual invention sure you know for sure that too so I believe that my son who's 12 has gravitated very strongly towards Judaism so we go to services I don't think he believes in a technical sense but he enjoys the service yeah but you know again so many of us just don't well the music is beautiful sentiments the richness I'm coming back to Jordan's point it's a party right isn't that part of it you like she wasn't doing a horrible right you're in Like a Star Wars drama or you're in Kung Fu Panda and you go to some you know you're going to a place whether it's a temple or a chapel or you know you're going to this place is uniquely ornate

► 02:26:43

environment you know we have particular words for example the rabbi's tell us you know we usually don't say this because this is what we have stolen from the Angels well this was the one time in the year when we can actually shouted and in its potency that's potent and you know you're going to to your original point so you have some weird tradition that makes no sense that produces it ridiculously disproportionate number of the Nobel prizes let's say in science and would it be scientific to throw that away I don't think so no right so if you were good scientist you'd say I don't know what's going on with these weird rituals it's like you know it could be the Funky Chicken you know where the Hokey Pokey but something is mean you know if most of the people who win Nobel prizes were founded do the hokey pokey I'd probably put more effort into right and maybe it's not maybe it's not attached to the ideas that Spawn from these religions at all maybe it's that these people have the freedom to think about these other things because they

► 02:27:43

intense confidence in the future and their Destiny and their God and their traditions and their ethics and they're also carved out that this I've always thought of religion in some ways is almost being like a moral scaffolding like you've okay well you got like a real clear structure to operate under and that that gives you resources it gives you frees up resources to do other things I mean I mean the problem is is that the atheist critique which is like there is no bearded dude in a cloud granting your wishes are listening to what you know bitch that's my answer how do you know that everybody who says there's no God and nothing happens when you die like you don't know that to say that is no different than someone saying they know for sure there's a God in the cloud with a harp and st. Peter no but go look at a list but if we conjure are weakened you're Sam and we try to steal man Sam Trammell say okay okay but there's all these explicit ways that you're supposed to worship God right everything they can't all be right because their Mutual incompatibility

► 02:28:43

and so how do you choose one among many and if n is large Okay blah blah blah none of this is the point the point is deep archetype is its own thing and the mind seeks DK archetype it's white cares about the Godfather pictures differently than Home Alone Home Alone is not deep archetype Godfather pictures are deep archetype right okay this is why I I'm on kung fu kung Fu Panda like white on rice that is deep archetype those are actually pretty goddamn good movies no just the first one the second one is not bad my kids liked it they're younger than yours

► 02:29:18

don't hide behind my kids junk I like the I enjoy it I enjoy him look I enjoy the Lego movies man I said I've never seen all the you know not bad this last Ninjago one's not bad I enjoy it so I think that just messing with you know I like those that right do do it and a little like there's a lot of fucking dumb shit that I like though that's it really yeah like a lot of dumb shit musically what some dumb shit that you don't kiss that is dumb shit ha ha ha every now and then man I'm on my way to The Comedy Store I'll throw on I was made for loving you I was made for loving you baby yeah that's not so bad but I prefer Angus Young in the Schoolboy hey I don't mind it either I like him as well yeah look I like all kinds of music but I wonder when it comes to archetypes whether or not when I was getting to when I was talking about your sons and your children whether or not their behavior is genetic

► 02:30:18

whether or not it's learned experience whether it's a combination of all things how much of what we have is just and these this sort of inclination towards ideologies is because pretty much everybody had them for the thousands and thousands and thousands of years that we had civilization and we are in some way shape or form the product of all that stuff even genetically yeah like whatever memories I don't totally understand genetics but what I do understand is that there's a lot that we don't know about why ideas get transferred from father to son from children from parents to children and there's things that get transferred even to adopted kids right that come directly from their parents right in a very eerie way where you go well where did is there some like what our instincts why are children afraid of spiders and monsters like what is that is it because at one point in time someone near them was killed by a big cat you know thousands of years ago he'll back

► 02:31:18

when you know we were living in these environments where we were preyed upon by Predators I mean what it what did the reasons why and Rupert sheldrake had a great point about that if you talk to children in New York City they're not afraid of child molesters or murderers or things that they might encounter car accidents they're afraid of monsters like why what is a monster and that a monster may very well be the memory or the ancient genetic memory of the creditors - I mean I think if you look at for example the evil stepmother oh well that's real to right okay yeah but what was that about probably it had to do with the fact that the first thing that you want to teach your children is hey if I'm not around and daddy remarries somebody who has no interest in you genetically right here's the emergency break glass in case of emergency plan right there's a little of that but it's also how many times does that play out where someone has to tell that story because it's so

► 02:32:18

all know it we all know the story I have a good friend of mine who was essentially tortured by his stepfather or throughout growing up I mean it has a horrific life story and it's just one of them million one of millions right but sometimes what we do is we sort of go obliquely at these things so for example in Little Red Riding Hood you know is the fox fox that are there's a wolf sorry as a wolf a wolf or the wolf actually Wolf Man Standing well I think it's a wolf because throughout Europe for a fucking thousands of years wolves preyed on Peanut Butter wolf is pretty creepy in this kind right because wolves are clever you know do you know that in Paris in I think the early 1400s wolves killed something like what was the number some insane number of people in Paris like 14 people were killed by wolves now I didn't and Paris they're starting to show up in Paris again okay wolves are fucking dangerous and what was it

► 02:33:18

look so I think everybody everybody respects the wolf but yeah but they're clever yesterday about wolves is they they have some sort of a hotel ever said the better to see you with my dear right because he was being clever mean okay but you asked the question about Predators will divide the Big Bad Wolf The Three Pigs it's all wolves there's a lot of wolves in ancient folklore it's to stay the fuck out of the woods it's always stay out of the woods right there's wolves in the woods right so what's the woods in Central Park know it's real woods people live near the fucking woods they weren't there wasn't those kind of cities yeah when they wrote these stories when the Grimm Brothers were around there was no Central Park right all I'm suggesting is that a lot of our information comes coated so that it doesn't point to directly maybe maybe stepmothers are kant's and wolves are dangerous

► 02:34:09

stepmothers I take the responsibility for this man there's a lot of amazing stepmothers now let's say 30 seconds worth of things that wonderful stuff Brothers there's amazing stepmothers but there's obviously some monsters yeah there's obviously some on no no but just it to your point that we step mother stepfather the question is right what happens when mommy or daddy remarries yeah sometimes it's awesome right often it's not right and why because of this issue about genetic relatedness so you know sure yeah to your earlier question I was stunned I didn't think about 23andMe is a religious test but when I said my saliva off to be analyzed it came back you're a Jew like 98 crazy point six percent coming why didn't I didn't know my religion was in my saliva I didn't even occur to me

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yeah but it's but that's the weird thing about choose right is that it's a religion but it's also an ethnicity right right right and so the idea is that all of these rules you know dietary restrictions rules for who gets to marry at what level in the culture where do you put your resources are you proselytizing or do you try to live at steady state you discourage people converting in all of these things are some sort of tool kit for living and it has produced more physicists than you know outfielders hmm right so it's not good at everything it's been it's something that the exclusion of others and so the question about how does the stuff Co travel

► 02:35:45

um it co travels in some way that's very mysterious yeah you know do we pass on trauma I can say in my family for sure that my family stopped being religious when my great uncle Sasha was killed right at the end of World War II and my great grandmother said no compassionate God would kill somebody so stupidly who had so much to give to their family and change the family from some kind of Orthodoxy to Orthodox atheism and then you know for three generations you have Jews marrying Jews with nobody believing in anything hmm why are they continuing to marry Jews why are they celebrating these holidays well it's because fundamentally a switch got flipped but my guess is that the Orthodox were always questioning whether there was a God the atheists are always questioning whether there's a God

► 02:36:39

at some level because our brains are not just simple computers to be you know rid of bias they have particular needs a my for things that I care about R-Truth fitness meaning and Grace all of those trade-off amongst each other and when I said this something like this on Sam's Sam Harris is program a lot of the people who wrote in said oh you know shows that he doesn't care about truth and you know I felt like now it just shows that you guys don't understand how important what is the argument understand the argument Sam would like to make an argument that the better and more rational are thinking is the more it can do everything that religion once did so if you've had a DMT or an LSD experience that can give you meaning and Transcendence you know if you can think your way more accurately through a problem that should increase your Fitness you know maybe Grace is something that's independent and you have

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figure out whether that's important to you but that's a choice and you know an elected objective and my belief is that a lot of these things are actually preset and that there's more antagonism between them so I think of myself as an atheist but it's only because there's a room in my mind that I try to keep very very clean and analytical that I sort of make the first among equals but I have needs for these other things I haven't you know there are times when the truth doesn't give me enough meaning and I'll start storytelling

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okay you know we're surrounded we've got to fight our way out you know like all that kind of narrative so Joseph Campbell's type stuff yeah sure don't you think that they're being the in this lessons to be learned in those right but it's and there's meaning in all those stories and there's there's a longing that we have for a lot of those Heroes Journey type narratives but but truth is significantly more important than just these lessons that we learned from Heroes Journeys like learning the lessons is important they're fascinating they're interesting the stories are amazing but what's really going on like what biological processes are responsible for certain types of behavior you know what what really is happening to human bodies under certain conditions what is really happening to the Earth what is really happening as far as the my own yeah my friend Peter teal critiques me on this point just as you have for he says you Eric under value and underweight the role of truth but I worry that we're not even

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a conversation if I think about my personal physics he rode Iraq was the guy who came up with the equation for the electron less well known than the

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Einstein equations but arguably even more beautiful in order to predict that he needed a positively charged in a negatively charged particle in the only two known at the time where the electron and the proton to make up let's say a hydrogen atom well the proton is quite a bit heavier than the electron and so he told a story that wasn't really true where the proton was the antiparticle of the electron and Heisenberg pointed out that couldn't be because the masses are too far off and they'd have to be equal well a short time later the anti-electron the positron that is was found I guess by Anderson at Caltech in the early 30s and then an antiproton was created sometime later so it turned out that the story had more meaning than the exact version of the story

► 02:40:17

so the story was sort of more true than the version of the story that was originally told and I could tell you a similar story with with Einstein I could tell it to you with Darwin who you know didn't fully understand the implications of his theory as is evidenced by his screwing up particular kind of orchid in his later work not understanding that his theory completely explained that Orchid so there's all sorts of ways in which we get the the truth wrong the first several times we try it but the meaning of the story that we tell somehow remains intact

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and I think that that's a very difficult lesson for people who just want to say look I want to you know like find one would say look if it experiment disagrees with you then you're wrong

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and it's a very appealing story to tell to people but it's also worth noting that Fineman never got a physical law of Nature and it may be that he was to wedded to this kind of rude Judgment of the unforgiving you know you can imagine you were to innovate in Brazilian jiu-jitsu the first few times might not actually work but if you told yourself a story no no this is actually genius and it's working and you're like no you just lost three consecutive outs well that may give you the ability to eventually perfect the move perfect the technique even though you were lying to yourself during the period in which it was being set up it's a little bit like the difference between Scaffolding in a building and too often people who are crazy about truth reject scaffolding which is an intermediate stage in getting to the final truth so well the problem with that analogy is that some techniques work but they just don't work for you and the reason why they don't work for you as you don't know them good enough yet right or not

► 02:42:05

you can eat that yeah no problem with that now we can just wrap this up if you're that hungry we're at the home stretch buddy we got seven more minutes I can't take it anymore I'm sorry insulin lower IT issues I crashing listen we just wrap this up anyway this is a this was a really fun conversation really feel like that eating that bar he definitely did change you put the butter crashed it I know will you you were so hungry you had to eat in the middle of talking I was told I could go to the bathroom here you could fill any garlic too well he said you could do it for like six weeks but tonight I'm sexy people go fucking crazy when they hear people chewing on the microphone he's the number one thing that people complain about in this podcast now I apologize to him now no worries we've had these fight Companion podcast and people are fucking potato chips and they're eating potato chips on the pocket and I just would get my Twitter would be filled with people fucking furious so it's letting you know America is hang in there to sorry you got to you got to be comfortable being uncomfortable like it's a couple minutes

► 02:43:05

I can do it what I was going to say is that analogy is not the best analogy because some things work they just don't work for you like one of the analogies as used in Brazilian jiu-jitsu is like someone will try a technique and it doesn't work for them and they're like well that techniques no good I'll say okay well you know that head kicks work right you see people kick people in the head and knock them unconscious right okay try to kick me in the head why don't know how to kick people in the head there you go even if I show you how you're not going to be able to do it if I show you how to kick people in the head you think gonna be able to kick someone who actually knows how to fight in the head no they're going to move the going to see it coming you're going to it's going to be too slow you're not going to have your neural Pathways carve to the point where that thing just slices right in there we're not going to know how to set it up you're not going to have the confidence and the experience to execute it the difference between that and the truth is very different because it doesn't require some sort of physical process for you to master before you can execute it with

► 02:44:04

with sufficient prowess to actually be successful well I think you know this has to do with placeholder truth you know the famous example of trichinosis and pork where if you believe that God hates those who eat the pig you think that's what that's about I think it's about tricking it most likely right or various other parasites right right so you know how long well malaria right bad are shellfish red tide right don't eat shellfish right so all of these things have to do with I'm not quite sure that I can explain to you why this is a bad thing but let's have a placeholder and then we'll refine it over time right come to understand what it is that we're doing now last we're rigid with our ideology and we go buy some ancient scripture that ancient scripture says that anything with a cloven hoof that eats its own cud you know like there's all these weird laws like this is your what you're allowed to eat

► 02:45:05

this is what you're not allowed to eat you accept it that's very often not how things work right so my fear is that it's a little bit the Emily litella effect on religion where the atheist concept of a religious person is usually the sort of robot that just looks follow the text right right and in fact what you often find is that you're rewarded for Brilliance in a religion by not having to follow the rules nearly as closely if you become Adept at argument it's sort of like really Christian people with across tattooed on them that could be right and you make some art well for example in Islam Contract Marriage where you need to get married for a few hours so that you can say it your urges with your wife who then becomes not your wife a short time later your arbitraging the letter of the law against the need for some sort of human realism so they have contract marriages where you like let's get married for a day yeah really

► 02:46:04

sweet move I think everybody should do that just to find out what the hell that person's really like you don't know anybody till you actually Miriam

► 02:46:14

once you shacked up with them and you're living for a while and they have access to all your money then you want then you get to find out what they're really like 1.6 billion people are considering your words right now I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing I do think that I don't think that many people live in this podcast the okay you know we had a situation I think in in the lake kinneret in Israel where people were using breadcrumbs to fish as bait and the question was well does that invalidate the entire water supply of Israel during Passover and so rabbis had to be convened and if you know paid a sufficient amount of money genius-level rabbis could figure out why it was okay to drink the water during Passover all right and so the issue of getting around your own rules is a time-honored religious tradition where you know any book that is not a book for living in survival and thriving is consigned to the Dustbin of history and so the fact that these

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things have been around for so long in general means that they have their own means of evading these self-extinguishing programs that would seem to Doom them well some of them those self-extinguishing programs had the way they evade it is through fear right I mean isn't that the fear of reprisal cheating on them yeah right and so the idea is of you know if you attack on Yom Kippur does that mean you can't fight back because you should you're supposed to be atoning for your sins not if you want to survive you're going to figure out a way to fight on Yom Kippur what about Ramadan I guarantee you nobody you know if it were so easy to defeat people using their own religious Traditions against them we wouldn't know the name of these religions and we wouldn't we wouldn't know the genius of the books how many did we lose how many religions if we forgot what they were me like Joe and Ted's Excellent religion yeah how many of just didn't make the cut you know I mean how many from Epic of Gilgamesh from

► 02:48:14

days I would I would guess tons what did they call it but what was the Heaven's Gate remember oh yeah you too with the Nikes that killed themselves when the the Comet or the solo castrating yeah the one guy who lead it was self capturing a few of the other speakers and Shaker Furniture then they were down to like one or there were three shakers at some point then there was like one and they were accepting no no no new recruits my favorite is the Amish they have that was that called ROM skeller what does that crazy they go nuts yeah well they go nuts for like a year what's a gringa Rumspringa is Otis that was one year where they just go fucking Hog Wild they don't have to follow the rules and then they usually feel so lost and disconnected that they I think the majority of them returned to being Amish is that right yeah I'm pretty sure find their way to Burning Man - no I don't think they go that kind of now so I think it's more like booze and AC/DC type nuts they just fuck a lot and get crazy and throw rocks you know so I'm going to I'm going to look for the Amish Camp Yes dear Eric this is a

► 02:49:13

beautiful conversation exceeded my expectations I really enjoyed it and we should do this more often Joe thanks for have do dance terrific thanks Perfect all right folks we'll be back tomorrow with the Great and Powerful Christina pazsitzky whose Netflix special is out today whoo thank you everybody for tuning in to the podcast and thank you to our motherfucking sponsors thank you to Blue Apron yummy delicious food less than $10 per person you can cook the shit yourself and it's goddamn delicious check out this week's menu and get $30 off your first meal with free shipping by going to Blue Apron.com forward slash Rogan thank you to me and he's my all-time motherfucking favorite underwear go to me undies.com forward slash Rogen and you get 20% off the best is soft is underwear and socks you will ever known free shipping and a hundred percent satisfaction wanna fuck

► 02:50:13

word up satisfactory hundred percent satisfaction guarantee go to me undies.com forward slash Rogan and thank you too white famous white famous which premieres this Sunday October 15th at 10 p.m. only on Showtime after that new episodes will be on Sundays at 10:00 only on Showtime and you can watch the hilarious series premiere right now for free on YouTube all right folks tomorrow tomorrow I love you tomorrow tomorrow we will have the Great and Powerful Christina pazsitzky that's right bitches all you mommies out there we love your jeans high and tight Christine is coming in reckon she's seriously one of the best comedians working today and I'm not saying like female comedians because chicks get pissed me do that she's fucking awesome she's really hilarious

► 02:51:13

dare I say as funny as her husband how about that yeah then Thursday Paul stamets the mushroom expert who you folks have been clamoring for he will be here on the 12th that's this Thursday so we're fucking excited we're excited you people we will see you all tomorrow and thank you so much and Kristina's special again is available right now it came out today right now on motherfucking Netflix oh all right that's it we're going by