0.0.12 - Muzzle This

Jul 7, 2020

A romantic, candlelit jaunt down memory lane discussing the podcast’s namesake and why Macrumors hates us.

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welcome back to unmuzzled episode number 12 or 24 I cannot remember I'm as always joined by my good friends Brian and Erin Brian of course invested tragically in beanie babies in 2017 instead of Bitcoin because of an iOS autocorrect issue with Siri lost all of his money and now has to slum it on a podcast with us and are and of course you'll remember it was the social media manager for the Nixon Administration and that didn't he didn't do a bang-up job

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up there so he is also slumming it here today we're all in software out of California and we are here to talk about stuff and things this episode we're going to dedicate to the namesake of the show which is an app called muzzle that we released in 2017 now over the years I've done a couple different places where I explain this app and how we got so popular it went to like number one on product hunt and it was a big deal for a little while and I get a lot of questions about it and a lot of those are free

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- hey I have a thing that I have built and I would like to get it out into the world and be successful what can you tell me what is the Magic Bullet there is no magic bullet but we can tell you what worked for us what didn't work for us how he pissed people off and how we dealt with that so that's the aim of today's show to get started a little background on what this app is so muzzle is a Mac up and the background of it is that Brian Burkett our illustrious co-host and another guy that we're friends with Josh were

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working together with a client and wait hang on yes so I gotta get that story straight to because it is a little different there okay go ahead so so I was working on a client a pretty big client at the time and built this if I'm allowed to say what I worked on for them but it was a Fleshlight website it's always the first thing whether it's the one that preceded the flashlight website which is true actually built that side one point but anyways

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actually before that they can talk about it now I guess because the agency has since sold but I worked for American Girl 3 agency and we were building a configurator app for like if you actually go and go to American Girl.com and go click create your own that app right there is the one this is completely unrelated to the Fleshlight right because now proceeded it I know I know that I was probably put on a watch let's go to the American Girl doll

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this and then the Fleshlight signs like is then afterwards so it was like is that creepy little girl dolls and is that related do not know what they are confused Brian do you not know what American Girl dolls are no I think I know it's like the classic you know there's super super high-end High creepy to me other debris may be right okay not just cops for me I you know my girlfriend grew up he's having them and she was like super stoked on it but yeah you were into American Girl dolls and anxiety to build their website so so it's not for them and I was doing a screen share

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with them and just before the screenshare I had messaged Josh privately on like a different slack group and I was like complaining about another client that I was just you know we had this a group would like talk about like issues and like how to deal with stuff and so rise extent of my messages like all right I gotta jump on the screen share with this client and go talk to them and to show them the work that I've been doing right as I started like screen sharing these are demoing it to him he started responding to my slack messages with just like start

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you're coming in like man fuck them like they sound like a shitty client and all this stuff which it wasn't about them but it could be easily have like you know been thought of that I was talking about them that way so I was like immediate dislike taking my cursor and like trying to like drag off while I'm talking I was like dragging off the notification and the clown afterwards it's like seeing these notifications on your screen there was like a notable PSI on the other end like it's like you can tell what I'm doing you know your reaction doesn't even help the matter right

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if it wasn't about them you're reacting as though it was about them I mean I had to like I read it as it's coming in and it's like oh shit and like so then that could have been better is if Josh had been mentioning the Fleshlight company name drop in the notifications yeah I mean fortunately I think it kind of that's all it was was a sign then afterwards I messaged like dude you like we're fucking be over there you were all the messages were puppet of my screen and I think we said back and forth like

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I was like oh we're I think he was like that sounds like something in at the should be an app for that that just like a text that was like I wonder if Brian Jones would build that for us so then that's when I messaged that the group that all three of us are on we actually have this little like group chat that dates back to when everybody was living in San Diego back in the day I know you to still do yeah there's like 12 of us on that group chat it's the Twigs coffeehouse group chat yeah yeah for so to accept coffee at least a meet-up what every what do stuff every Tuesday that switch

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Thursday's I think didn't it at one point yeah they let the for so the NGO Community overtook the place so we had to change days not not not the programming language the board game it's important to specify on this podcast which yeah so that so we had a group chat going then and so we all just kind of it always be like talking about like going to go meet up with the coffee house which is Aaron was there and a bunch of other people hodgepodge of people I think up to about like how many people there's 12 people in them at any given time we had like six people show up at the coffee house

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set a timer yeah yeah it was a cool thing but anyway so Josh and Brian sent me this message hey can you build an app for this and I say yeah I'll take a stab at that and I think it was like six hours later I had a working build that did you know the thing the you I wasn't done yet and it had like a temporary I got it didn't have a name yeah but it actually worked it would toggled do not disturb so figuring out how to do that there's not actually an API that Apple makes available to turn do not disturb on or off but that's all the app does is as soon as

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start sharing your screen the app notices that and then turns on do not disturb so your notifications no longer slide in from the right and that's exactly my problem was a yeah figuring out how to do that was a bit of a stroke of luck my initial attack at it was using something called Mach override which is really kind of dangerous way to do stuff by telling the operating system this API that you think is the API is no longer the API wants to call this other one instead

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Ted and if you screw that up you can crash the whole system which I did and that was fun so we ended up not using that but the remnants of it stay in the app because there's a little mock override button and if you click it it just has this giant text that comes up that says done on your screen it's transparent it just says done in like two hundred and forty-four point font and then that Fades away and people have emailed me to ask what just got done when they click a button always come up with a different story in the email response

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that's what that came from the reason you added that was because you were telling us how you were doing it and you're like I'm using this thing called Mok override and I think that are in our like back and forth on the thread with everybody was like what the hell is mock overrun yeah it was nice and I that's like the coolest name ever yeah I'd click a button called Bach override so you made a button called Mach over right yeah and it does nothing but in the email responses I have some fun with people and just make up stuff and freak them out a little bit but anyways

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so this app has existed now since 2017 and it works with most services that do screen sharing not all of them because some of them there's two ways to do screen sharing you use apples official API that does it and that gets all the pixels directly from the graphics card so it's super efficient and then some apps do it the old school way which is they just snap 30 screenshots a second and Stitch that into video and you can tell which apps those are because your battery gets murdered in your CPU fan start blaring and so Microsoft team shout out to them maybe

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you know your app but muzzle works with most stuff and it got real popular on product hunt but the story of that is really the app worked which is like the Baseline you got to build something that doesn't suck but the marketing is really why it rocketed up and became successful and it was free so we didn't charge any money for it that also helped that helps a little yeah so we'll pick up the story with the marketing I built the app Brian Burkett built the website and why don't you why don't you walk us through the website there

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R yes I guess I'm the one that everyone was mad at or some people were mad at but I'm glad that you got the blame for it so yeah we I think so the agreement there was like you're like I'll build the app you got to make me a website for this I was like okay fine and then we are going back and forth and trying to figure out what to call it I don't know if you remember the original name for the app was STFU yeah that was just that when you create plays let's go project you got to give it a name and I didn't know what the hell to call it so I was like yeah

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somehow I don't know how I came up with muzzle but then once I came up with that I was like it just fit it was like okay cool we're going to use that and then you came to me like build a website for it I was like all right I guess it sounds fine I can do that and I think my Approach like the way that we approach this too is like I asked Brian to build the app and he just did it and like I didn't really have much oversight in that and then you just let me build the website did have much oversight and I just tried to

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to design something that would make the people in our Twigs coffeehouse chat laughs right so on an errand to laugh and Nick and other people so when I like I think I did like two versions in the one that's up now is the second version It's may be tweaked a little bit but I kind of just like went straight for and I like I knew exactly what I wanted to do my first pass was a very literal pass where I was like I just gonna put a screen shot of like the the windows UI up our side the the Mac

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Cy up and have like edification to come in and then like click muzzle and they were like silence them or something like that and it just felt like to like I'm looking at a computer monitor through computer monitor the it was weird sounds like I'm a strip all that you Iowa and then I'm going to throw the notifications in the corner what worked out for that is it actually if you're looking at the browser full screen those notifications Lexi's fly in at the exact pretty close to the exact same spot that notifications will come up to the point that I even troll myself like when I'm like working on the site and if I haven't like look check something out

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out and make those things are coming to my my brain automatically make shifts over to the screen like looks and like oh that's just a stupid fake notification you turn into Pavlov's dog it's like the yeah right shit spoiler alert if you have not seen the jokes yet you should go to muzzle app.com and experience the website before we talk about it because it is a really really awesome website so you know if you haven't seen it this is your last chance to be in on it before we ruin it yeah pause here go the check it out it works even on your mobile phone denounce the joke

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around on the desktop but whatever anyway so it's a very simple website and all it does is it shows the app and it says it has a app logo and a download button and it says a simple Mac app to silence notifications while screen sharing and over embarrassing notification support and complete finding their no no that's a that that actually that I've got us into some hot water by me throwing that little term in there I'll explain a little bit anyway so in the top right corner actual notifications that look like they are on Mac OS 10 just slide in from the right one after the other and they get more

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ridiculous as they go and we had some experiences dealing with people that don't have the same sense of humor as us about these notifications well and how that started I mean I think Burkett you shared you either shared a screenshot or you shared the site I don't remember but you shared that with the with the Twigs thread and I think from there then you started to ask hey what would be some ideas for notifications I'm sure you yeah you know the two of you went back and forth on on your own hello

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as ideas but they're not really no just kind of throw them then you but then you threw it up to the Twigs thread and we all kind of just piled on we're like all right here's some other here's some more ideas yes I mean I mean before we get the hill the reactions are pretty funny that we got on Twitter and really interesting the first 24-48 hours when I was really getting it going but just to touch on that a little bit is anything if you are on the website although the order of the notifications is random the

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any names that you see are random there's like a list that I pull from that just like randomly pulls in somebody's name and any pictures you see are pulled in randomly and even like user photos avatars whatever pulled in randomly from initially was an API but a source that as like a loud like these are open source images kind of that you can use for whatever but yeah I turn to the because so I figured the joke would only work I wrote like maybe like 10 to start us off and then I was like this is

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only there's only going to work and be really funny if I can get like a hundred or something like that and I'm not gonna sit here and be funny a hundred times over so that's why I turned yeah yeah yeah routes crowdsource humor yeah so then I just turned it over to the Twigs group I asked I just asked for like help like hey do we have any like funny ideas that I could put up here so some of the ones that are there and are Twigs group is decently diverse you know men and women in there as well so we kind of you know

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there was some reminders in there like oh we should like have some stuff that are funny for the lady so we wrote those notifications for both genders as best we kind of could I guess you know yeah we should give a sample in case you haven't been to the website so one of my personal favorites is a notification from Aunt Edna saying please don't leave your butt plugs on the bathroom counter I also liked Nicole's we're never doing blow again I like all of the crazy ex notifications the stalkerish

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ones that we've all gotten from somebody but the return request denied sorry no refunds for killed us yeah so I feel like that's a fair sampling of sort of what we're going for and I think we should not be remiss to point out that almost everybody got the humor right so out of out of a hundred emails we got 99 of those were people saying oh my God this is the funniest website ever this is great I love this is perfect is a great website and then you would have the one percent of people who are just

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unhappy about everything in life and you know are going to find a way to complain so we're going to talk about that 1% but we should mention upfront that almost everybody universally loved the humor and got that it was you know not not a serious website

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yeah I mean so to kind of pick up our momentum was like really really insane and we didn't even anticipate having that kind of reaction at all like any reaction right like we just kind of threw it up there just like I needed to solve my problem you solved it for me right we just put it out there to the people to use and then it got picked up on product hunt you just tweeted it to your people then I got picked up on product hunt and that's where it really like ran right yeah it was was through product hunt and so I mean we went from like

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thousands of downloads in a single day right like that out and it just kept going to the point like art my inbox is just blowing up from people like reaching out and Twitter going off that this going off the rails and remember we launched it like kind of quietly and then it was like 3:00 a.m. it started really going and I was still awake and remember texting you brand be like what the fuck why are you sleeping this is the insane like I've never seen this I was awake for 24 hours with a lot I mean I wasn't anticipating that I was just like all of a sudden we were in everyone's like mentioning us on Twitter and

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don't hunt like comments coming through left and right which I was crazy I'll tell you why I was asleep because compared to the last time I release something this one went very smoothly when I launched code get to all of the traffic Bluehost literally terminated my account and said you've been targeted by a DDOS attack and we can't handle your server traffic so you don't have an account with us anymore and my website went dark and I spent four hours migrating to a new host and setting up cloudflare and getting back online so by comparison the launch of muzzle was great there was

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reason for me to be awake right I mean the site itself is very is very low I mean they're not we're talking what the whole size probably a megabyte in size if that so even then the amount of bandwidth that we're getting from that but yeah I mean it was just kind of crazy so then the first is like super positive and then you start because the people who are sharing in our liking it right like they're the ones that are like big fat then it started there was some threads that sort of picking up where people were just like one of two things like one they were really offended by one particular notification or the other that we're

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wrote that was in there that they didn't like that one joke and then we were evil monsters to they just didn't like the humor overall itself right so we had people I remember well that one dude who reach out to us who was like your notification should be something like I forgot to pick the kids up from the school yeah it was gonna guess not he was like ever be very embarrassing for me and I just about like I don't know what that guy's life is like but I feel like he missed out on some things in his youth you know like he never had the

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old and crazy phase you know that everybody should go through because it develops you as a person that dude was you know I imagine like this straight-laced puritanical guy driving and he's like person Bono I matched black shoes with a brown belt yeah so embarrassing you have the ID so clumsy yeah I mean and it really goes to the sick a lot of people don't know like what's funny I think there's like a big sense of like not to say that we're funny at all

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like we just I feel like we just kind of got lucky like we wrote jokes we wrote like toilet humor jokes to ourselves like that's really what it was like twig the Twigs coffeehouse chat group was our audience right and so it was a pretty easy to have a sample size there and like okay what makes them laugh I wouldn't even be I wouldn't even necessarily call it toilet humor right it's it's literally the conversation of what would be embarrassing to you if it came up on your screen yeah yeah brick I just have it up right now Brazzers mentioned to you on Twitter yeah I mean

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it was Brazzers is it is it prices is that they got route I think it's browsers sorry for mispronouncing Brazzers flashlight website you should not in the industry I did one site I mean the other thing is I mean industry that's why we were as this sounds it on purpose to make it seem like he's not yeah I get it I get your game I mean we do have a dick pic on there that I would like I would like to elaborate on that part because the original V 1

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commit of the muzzled website Brian Burkett one of the notifications you know is a guy it's a it is sent from a guy on Grindr because we tried to address everybody right gay straight women men whole deal so it's a guy on Grindr sending a dick pic to another guy and the text to the notification is I don't know is this big and Brian's original commit had an actual dick pic and he went into Photoshop and he hit gaussian blur and he was like 0.001 percent that'll get the job

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done and I saw it and I was like maybe we should turn that up to maybe you know 20% blur I made it just look like an airbrushed dick pic I still stand I stand by it I wish we didn't blur it at all I wish the dick was just on the page because from a brand marketing a design perspective like I wanted you to like have this visceral response of like oh shit like you put your hand up to cover the screen yeah you know if you saw dick come up you'd be all of a sudden like oh fuck who's anybody looking at screen right now you know and I wanted that

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at reaction and I was like okay dude what's gonna get that done at dick pics kind of funny put that up there but we actually got in trouble food from that one so that was actually the one that we had to change not that we blurred it more because he's already blurred at the hell I mean you barely tell it that it wasn't that big one we had another notification that was a girl responding to a guy and the text of the notification said please stop sending me dick pics yes we got in trouble for that one yeah and so that one was like the fact that we were creating

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we were covering for people who

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I guess this was in the like the kind of middle that me to movement a little bit maybe back then and it was like we were creating a way for guys to like be able to send dick pics on the cover their tracks or something later that it was like we were endorsing the idea we were endorsing the yeah like it was cool to send unlisted door yeah it was cool to send us an unsolicited dick pics and that if they downloaded muzzle they wouldn't have the repercussions of that wouldn't come through or something am I remember specifically them being like Oh your cuff like like what the hell are the pick pick

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part of life like wait so that's they actually thought that the application somehow did something else to notifications that would allow people they thought that like it were covered your tracks the no together like that notification wouldn't pop up and I could like turn on muzzle and then that would hide my the shit that I'm doing and so I could like how to be more covert about the fact that I'm said that dick pics it's actually private browsing mode in Safari Chrome believe they call it incognito mode in Chrome yeah but it was like my I guess that's a Farley

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leap to go to like I thought a dick pic was funny I've personally never sent a dick pic either by and but here's the thing Aaron surprisingly quiet on that I've been married 12 years almost spice it up of course he's got a lot of characters he plays out here it says video now it's like little Charlie misses you

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glad we're gonna live with this episode what got me is that it wasn't just that they were upset with the actual notification they took that and use that to say that Brian and I were you know these frat boy developers who were trying to glorify sending pictures of your dick to random women on the internet and you know we were somehow normalizing that and all of this and obviously I mean we didn't have any of that in mind when we just tried to create a funny notification but we did end up because Brian and I are

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I are despite what the internet thinks reasonable human beings that are open to feedback we did end up tweaking the language of that notification so we made it a little more of a Revenge play for the ladies we change the text to got your dick pic is that it question mark and that seemed to help that controversy that actually weirdly as I said that popped up on my screen right here on the thing I have impeccable timing nicely done yeah I mean it's it we did change that

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another one that we got into hot water over to was the one called therapy session I think it was was a calendar invite yeah that sounds like on a under notification that says you know in two hours explain explain what getting into hot water even looks like because I think and I think that's something that I think everyone is definitely cognizant of now I mean canceled culture is all the rage and anybody that's preparing to launch anything he'll us with our podcasts and articles

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our names of episodes and things could be worrying too many so what what did that even look like so people could possibly kind of be prepared for that if they were wanting to do something yeah I mean I think I mean for us if populated is just some Twitter threads coming up you know and and some comments on some message boards some industry message boards and stuff and people just kind of calling us out that wasn't that's still not the biggest issue that we've gone over

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which we can get into a little bit more but yeah I mean it's just basically some like pop up stuff like Twitter outrage you know but you didn't and you didn't get phone calls you didn't get emails well we got oh it's got emails yeah emails came through yeah but it didn't like I mean emails aren't that bad of a deal that kind of deal I mean I haven't had anything worse than people just not being super pleased with a couple of notifications but like I'm not getting like we didn't get death threats over it or anything like that but it was more I think the more bothersome was the people move

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talk about some other episodes of like how people just like call this out of nowhere without even like kind of like trying to reach out to us and say like hey this is offensive XYZ this is why I think it's offensive and like having that conversation with this privately like just those like flare-ups I feel like that was just lame you know to like have people do that and such like a the jokes that we were making I feel like our nothing that's beyond like a South Park episode you know like it wasn't that well below that yeah yeah but it's like these are these are actual

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patient you would get you know if you're a 20s or 30s something and you live in a city you know your friends are not like they're not out of an Apple keynote where it's like hey Sushi 6 p.m. that's a shitty example notification right it really is like those things are so lame like I accept your friends yeah you know and I'm inside jokes it's the funny stories it's that time you threw up on that dude on the park bench because you had a little too much tequila at the you know New Year's Eve party right that's the stuff you remember with your friends and that's what

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but you know like that's like some of the best stuff in life so sanitizing it on the website just it's not it's not for me no and and I mean I feel like we dealt with it okay I was just like the flare for when those was kind of pop up I mean I think it was important for us was to be a little open to listening to it I don't think I mean I could be wrong historically incorrect here but I felt like we did answer like and make adjustments when people thought things were too far so like therapy session to me was like okay but somebody who's

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in therapy told me about that like that was something that would be embarrassing to them and that's why I mentioned before that are think says embarrassing so then there was like this why are you against mental health why is therapy embarrassing it was like oh my God that's not Michigan well I know people yeah I know people that go to therapy I mean I myself go to therapy every once in a while and I know people that on their calendar they'll call it something else hmm because of that exact thing it might pop up or there they pull up their calendar and there have their work calendar and there you know have them

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co-workers around them they don't want it no oh that's why you're leaving you know that's what you have scheduled yeah right and that's and that's where I think it was just to me it started off it started as like what's something that I wouldn't want I might not want somebody to know that was like pop up on my screen and then it kind of evolved into some more funnier things right like the YouTube the YouPorn billing issue you know that popped up in there and other things too but like it was I just really look like kind of annoyed with some

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people when I mean I guess it made for some controversy was okay because we did get featured in a bunch of places after that as well but really the I think that the last one that we got into big trouble for and still kind of are dealing with it more recently even three years later was the images that were on there so we pulled like so for user photos some notification slides in it pulls in a random name so if I basically wrote in the back and I could say like this is I want there to be a

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female user female name here pulling a female image and then here's the content for this thing you know and there's somebody out there found their image was being used on the site and it was next to like hey babe I have herpes or something like that right that's on there and her photo was there and she's like I don't want to be associated with like being having herpes it's like well okay fair enough I guess one I think we told her like it's random she's like I got it twice and

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literally like look at the code and my then you should go buy a lottery ticket because it's literally random like and and then I actually I mean we went back and forth on this brand this is another kind of interesting to pick up on our principled conversation from last week talking about like sticking to principles I was like immediately like fine you want to be off the site no problem I think that you and I went back and forth a little bit of like deciding like we didn't violate anything so like why don't we just like whatever we could just use it you know like they gave permission

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to anybody in the world to use their photo yeah that's the big thing is they submitted their photo to like random user.com or whatever a free service that lets designers and developers you know who are looking for images use images and there were two options when you submit your photo to that site you could say only use my photo for like private design mock-ups you know just to help out people in the industry and then there was another option that said I don't care you can use my photo for whatever even commercial uses public uses and so

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it submitted a photo and chose that second option and so we just pulled from that service and her face was one of the ones that we got ya so which so go out of our way to like manually find her and be like how she looks like she's got her that was her like that to yes and I think one of the problems that you So eventually I first we were doing an API call every single time you'd slide it in a location like that was becoming like a lot right so we ended up like scraping that API and like downloading all of those images

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ages from that Source like honor our under our own local server so that that person on Twitter had like gone in and like disabled their photo to be shared everywhere but then it obviously because we'd used it which I think is like okay if I made a print ad and I printed your face on it like I don't go down and pull down all those posters because you wouldn't toggled something under a dashboard so at the end of the day we ended up writing a filter and it was kind of if anybody reach out to us and didn't want their photo here we removed them right yeah just fine because I mean why why be

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think about it you know if you don't have a part of the project you think it's not funny fine and then that's bonded to another because it popped up like a think again much much later like two years later somebody else came to us and then we tried to go down this route of like let's get a i generated faces it was like what's the most Overkill way that we can solve this problem to never have to worry about this problem again was we were get we used we were wanting to use is not real.com or yeah this person yeah whatever it is

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and it's like a i generated faces from some Source set we went down that rabbit hole which turns out so when you go there and you just browse the website they show you one face after the other and they look they look amazing they're like they look like real people and it's this person does not exist.com okay yeah but it is it turns out that only about one in a hundred come out that good because if you go they have like their GitHub repo at the bottom if you go and you look at the repo they'll show you the Raw results from running the algorithm over and over again

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a holy God are there some nightmarish images in there where people's Jaws are like relocated to their eye socket and there's like extra teeth coming out the side of the face it is it is definitely a hit or miss thing yeah plus the amount of Hardware that you have to have to actually so then we were going to like download this generator and ourselves and run it and just output us I think a hundred and sixty faces and we ran the math and then we look at the spec the required is like okay this I just thought I was going to be a really funny like post to be like

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like what's the most Overkill possible thing that we could do just to solve this I would just love to have done that and then had somebody complained that it's like it's not even notification I would just I would love for that to happen to me but it also turned out that they the license there I won't let you use it for commercial purposes and so we couldn't we couldn't use the AI generated faces yeah so that was the last bit of like hot water that we got into so to kind of recap like we kind of had the idea I had a problem Brian built yeah

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fix it I was in charge of building the website went live got a bunch of like I guess mentions on Twitter and a lot of we ended up becoming I mean the outcome of this is that be became the best product of the day for product hunt which is huge in the tech space the best product of the month which is even bigger and then we actually came fritti fucking close to winning product of the year like two or three the employee today's we've ended up being two back bro

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we beat out like everybody would be that like Tesla would be about Spotify and when you so many so many things like we and and the only reason we didn't win product of the year was because we aren't really super legitimate and we don't have like following or like a we don't even have a social media account for that app or like anything like that and so there wasn't much of a following in the want the team that the app that did beat us had a newsletter campaign that's just like blasted out like hey can you vote for us on product hunt and they ended up just like Syria like neck and neck from just like the natural people

► 00:32:48

and then they ran a little campaign to get some votes and then they one product of the year which I actually ended up going to product hunts thing that year where they like have like a party was really really stupid just like a it's like a rave basically I was like the thought were here to talk about products I was gonna like talk to a bunch of people in this is a bunch of like developer designer nerds in a basement the San Francisco with like techno music blasting and dark lights that sounds about right Super San Francisco but anyway yes we got all that so like

► 00:33:18

I think the up part of the story too is like what came after we launched I guess I mean as far as your perspective and I mean do you feel like you have a pretty good grasp on like where we came from I just want to use you as like a little make sure we don't go past the building phase of things I think kind of covers no I think that yeah I think that covers it I mean on my end I recall the you know you sending out hey here's our problem you know Jones would you would you be able to build that and it was just interesting

► 00:33:48

be on the outside and just watch it completely come full circle in a really quick turnaround it and that's really neat to see to see a problem that could so easily be solved and then actually take the time build it develop it and then ship it and and for us I think it was pretty obvious once you built the site and you showed everyone on the in our Twigs thread how it worked we all were immediately like oh this is genius this is hilarious if anyone goes to

► 00:34:18

ooh that site it's going to be a game-changer and seeing it then go to product hunt and then just run away on there was I mean I think it was riveting for all of us involved just to watch it I remember I remember checking product hunt that day and reading comments and be like holy shit this is insane yeah which is I think important to note that we didn't intend for it to go out product and somebody else had picked it up and was like oh this should be on product hunt you know I thought about 35 people would use the thing yeah so

► 00:34:48

just took off without us really realizing that's like having that like which is really interesting like I work a lot of startups and like how much effort they put in to try to achieve what we've achieved you know with that it's like hilarious actually like in retrospect though if we did anything wrong I think we skip the part where we raise 90 million dollars of VC money and they took that into our own bank accounts and declared bankruptcy like five years later yeah you did get the one part right of not being profitable

► 00:35:18

table by not charging yes we've made we still made zero dollars with like the most popular fucking a pain so that's yeah that's not true that's not true like I think like five people have sent me five dollars on PayPal that's right they did they would be like so much like thing yeah they felt they liked it so much they found your PayPal information and then PayPal do because they're like look I gotta pay you for this but don't worry if you balance that out with like the hosting fees for the domain and and all of that by the end of it we're

► 00:35:48

we're still a money-losing start-up as traditions of Silicon Valley yeah and then so on that like the popularity like a lot of weird stuff started happening really really quickly I mean requests for interviews obviously like our inboxes from Twitter were blowing up and mentions were blowing up and my email was blowing up from people wanting to like having to the point people are offering like half of their company for me to come to do

► 00:36:18

design work for them now it's like what like I built one I designed and built one page and you're willing to give me half of your company the fuck you talking about like that doesn't make any sense to me and Brian I mean so you you started where yielding a lot of interviews at the time I remember like you just had an outpouring of people reached out to do that people wanted to know you know the big question I got was hey I'm also building this thing and I'm going to you know try to Launch

► 00:36:48

product Hunter try to get people to use it how can I do that how can I replicate the success you guys had and I think the big thing for me what I tell people is don't give up the one thing that you have as a small start-up or a small company and that is your personality right your voice your character Apple for example can't do any of that they have the sense of humor of a linoleum floor and they can't afford to you know show any person and aluminum floor aluminium for aluminium yeah

► 00:37:18

I think it's actually I think the Apple Store floors are probably rare mahogany exported from somewhere you know this time he pulled up in Africa they actually cover it in like the Steve Jobs book he found it a quarry in Italy that he got the Stone from yeah Italy and of course you know Italy but I think too often people look to the major players like Google and apple to replicate their everything from the way their website is laid out right they'll just duplicate the website they'll duplicate the marketing message they'll you know

► 00:37:48

whatever their product is they use the same style of screenshots a little take a MacBook Air and Photoshop the app onto the screen of the MacBook Air and then MacBook Air goes on the website and it just looks like you're looking at a knockoff of apple or a knock off of you know whatever is the flavor of the week in start-up bill and I think what we got right is we were human you know we had personality and we got vilified for that by a very tiny minority of people we got called you know Bros and you know frat boy

► 00:38:18

boys and all that stuff which is funny because I never been in a frat Sam and you know I think running that so folks that are looking at launching something it is intimidating to stare down the mob and say oh well I can't you know I got a tow the line I can't offend anybody if you're not offending anybody then you're also never going to go to the top of the list right because what got us there is this viral humor you know just people identifying with and and resonating with the website me like oh my God yes

► 00:38:48

I've gotten texts like that you know like Jill sends me that kind of text all the time you know or my wife sends me photos of her boobs all the time you know and and that happens and we've sanitizing life is stupid in the in the hopes that you can make life something other than what it is and I think when you identify with people and you resonate with them like that naturally you're going to have more success so I encourage you to have some personality if you're starting your own thing and you know not sanitize everything the way Apple and Google in the major players have

► 00:39:18

two because they're gonna get sued 7 ways from Sunday I also think that it matters when in how you apply it so for example like we just had the opportunity we didn't set out to like create offensive things right like that was just more of a side effect it just help tell that story really really well so I wouldn't necessarily advise like go out and be offensive just to be offensive because then you can also see the often in authenticity in those things to you're just like you're just you're just saying that to try and be edgy like that it's fucking stupid like I think you know I think a good example is

► 00:39:48

as we talked about them a couple episodes ago but the the hey email app that just recently launched they their approach to solving email was just rethinking it from the ground up and not copying what's already been done obviously you have to have some of the key fundamentals and key you know features but like one example of this is you know again this is made by the folks at base camp and they have a little bit of lightheartedness a little bit

► 00:40:18

it of not taking themselves too seriously and I think that's what you're getting it and they instead of calling it the inbox they call it the I'm going to butcher this I don't know if it's they call it the inbox inbox or I'm box I am box yeah I am I'm back well yeah but that's not so I am and said I am and it's like all instincts say don't reinvent anything don't rename something that everyone's familiar with but on in that example that actually has garnered place

► 00:40:48

the city it's garnered people going oh that actually kind of feels nice it feels right and people talking about how stupid they think it is as well like that exactly yeah and they I think that like you have to you have to not be afraid to make those kinds of decisions and I think that a lot of times like at school with base camp I mean they're smaller they're not a not a big apple Google but like let's see what like what we did with muzzle like that what if never flown if we had to get that signed off by a client or if I had to be in a design by committee type of environment where people were having to give me approval

► 00:41:18

and this is the type these are the types of ideas that like really one person has and then is allowed to just like like probably one person comes up with the idea of inbox right over at hey and then it's just like given permission to run with it and see what happens you know and with the ability like okay we can change it later if we need to write and so like the the story that we told what the muzzle up.com size just like it was what was needed to be told as one you know a whole group of people wouldn't have come up with this or if they you had to go through like let me pick

► 00:41:48

this to a client you know like it just never would have happened so I mean a lot of people even had the perception that we did lives like how did you come up with this idea what were the iterations or the other versions like we just did it like iterations yeah I think yeah I think that's the difference that's an interesting thing to think about because really what your especially in these instances what you're doing is you're just creating and not to get too full of ourselves with you know really weird its software Engineers but there is a lot of creativity

► 00:42:18

to it so you look at anybody that you know classifies them self as an artist whether it's a painter they're not going to paint with 10 people over their shoulders and being like now don't don't put that line there it's not going to work or you know someone creating some new sound with with a guitar they're not going to go to you know get you can go get that user test and say what do you guys think of this sound it's like no fuck you I'm going to make what sounds awesome to me and I'm gonna have fun

► 00:42:49

and if it lands it lands if it doesn't it doesn't can you imagine having like 10 people standing over Pablo Picasso shoulder while he's painting just being like that's not a guide that's a triangle that can't be a guy's face and I'm glad that you guys think of me at public Picasso yeah that's exactly what we were the yeah yeah well and that's I think that's an interesting thing is like even when you're I mean this is not pushing the envelope so I'm going off on a tangent but like when you're pushing the envelope most of the time the critics of that day and age are going

► 00:43:18

to be overly critical and just think that that's outrageous what you're doing is fucking nonsensical and is not you know is not going to work and then after a while then it becomes the popular you know thing of that time so you can't you can't just sit there and just listen to critics and listen to people that aren't fucking creating telling you how to create I think that you know it has to do to like just trusting the creatives and trusting the people like I look at you know

► 00:43:48

the way that I run any project that I'm on our mini business I'm working with is like get the experts in a trustee expert like get somebody who's like a sign that they're this thing they take ownership of that task and you trust them with that right like I don't know I have a lot of folks that work with so many clients as a freelancer like there's a lot of times where I just CPU has to so much back and forth and like so much oversight and let's like just trust that I'm the expert that's what I want to do and like I'm totally OK which obviously you've seen through a lot of stuff that we've done together

► 00:44:18

other like I'm totally okay with people not liking what I've come up with and having that conversation and like taking the feedback and whatever like I don't really mind but also the same time I feel like you just have to like trust somebody like that they are going to do you know the good thing I didn't have to have this whole back-and-forth with Brian I was just like here's the site of gets done there you go yeah you know that's why you showed it to me you show me the first iteration I was like yes that's it launched it yeah yeah yeah yeah I've worked at now a couple companies that have their going they've been going

► 00:44:48

through growth and inevitably when you're when you're smaller people are wearing many different hats and then at some point you start to hit a size of organization where that's just no longer necessary and then no longer possible and one of the things I Champion a lot and I am a person that likes to wear different hats and it's challenging but one of things I Champion is telling my team and which is usually just the software folks I tell them

► 00:45:18

I'm going to defer like do not make choices that are in the design realm don't make don't decide to take on QA you know don't decide to take on business and operations or whatever you're going to defer and then it builds an organization that you actually trust each other because selfishly I don't want people coming down to us from design and being like why didn't you build it this way right no that's not your expertise like we made these decisions for these reasons and I don't you know we don't need to share

► 00:45:48

all of the reasonings behind everything that we've ever done so deferring yeah deferring in that way is like you just have to trust people they they do more research they've listened to more podcasts on that on that thing they've gone to conferences and trade shows a living and breathing that yeah exactly for sure and I think I think the other part of that too is like not just I also like to have a collaboration to like everything that I do I do collaborate like that's why I show you guys some of the stuff that I'm working on like the me your thoughts early on you know so if I do to change pace so I can do

► 00:46:18

it but I mean at the end of the day like trust them and then if I just feel like opening up that collaboration and like letting design in and like letting them know your opinions or letting Devon and letting them know why you're making this decision that's one of things I do is a developers I always try to understand why a designer made a certain decision so so then I can help out and like if they have a certain business objective they're trying to achieve or something like that then like okay cool but like let me also be part of them and I'm good at what I do let me help you solve that problem you know a little bit a little kind of jumping back into mother so couple things

► 00:46:48

that were really funny after the fact so after we launched you know we had to deal with our little controversies or anything we just kind of wrote this like really interesting way of staying awake for me 20 like 28 hours something I stayed awake watching Twitter when that happened we got so we mentioned before Brian you did interviews you've done a panel we've done written and you've done you've done interviews over the phone have you not or is it just been written in the the in-person ones in person ones and then a couple

► 00:47:18

all like podcast interviews right and yeah we got featured on a couple of podcasts I'm am everyone on YouTube Marie forleo who's Big in the tech space bench it us is her favorite what if she calls our favorite your favorite like offensive company and like why being offensive was like a good choice that we yeah and then I tweeted that and I was like suck it Uber because everybody that pissed off at Uber for why would why were we pissed off at Uber everybody was like deleted Uber for a while

► 00:47:48

reasons one they searched priced when the travel ban was happening I believe or something like that and so in the CEO had like you know kind of antics going they have like frat boy like culture there so they had like very bad coach like they would people would complain to HR complaints and they kind of are just like we don't care the best let the best Engineers engineering if they want to harass women let them harass women like we don't care and that's where that's where a lot of that stuff came out of a gun yeah all right this is coming back to me now yeah

► 00:48:18

yeah the funniest thing so so we were magazines have magazine here to of like which ones what did we beat I didn't realize it's actually have a note in here from the editor of this magazine I didn't realize I'd miss that before but like we like and every publication we'd beat out like Apple iTunes our first bottle feeding out iTunes is that's a very hot not I did we beat out so we did we didn't beat Out product hunt itself and this list they got list

► 00:48:48

the Stanford to we got number three but like on this list here just as magazines for front of me so we got listed in this like apps websites and Tech the internet is buzzing about in 2017 and we're Lissa's number third we were over Spotify we were over something the runway over an app called roadmap which I now use kind of over in design or I'm sorry Envision apples are kit we should point out that it literally all of these things made millions and millions and millions of that yeah well we're never

► 00:49:18

three who gives a fuck I don't care take your knife place in your 1 million dollars the other funny thing so then we did an interview for a magazine and Germany I think it was it was Germany yeah I let you tell that story Brad so they asked us you know that it was an email interview they asked us via email and then they said will you send us a photos you know head shots of you guys and I don't have the typical Silicon Valley headshot I don't like it is just not a thing that I have Brian of course

► 00:49:48

has like a gallery of 70 of them photos app you can pick anyone he wants but because I didn't have a head shot and I was not very interested in taking a professional headshot with a DSL camera on some Boca behind me looking all you know like I actually belong in the tech industry I told Brian that what we were going to do is send him a photo of the Ryan's that being Ryan Reynolds and Ryan Gosling and we did that and they published that so in this magazine I am Ryan Reynolds

► 00:50:18

and Brian briquette is Ryan Gosling very much that that went to press apparently nobody in Germany watches Deadpool yeah I mean it was literally it's a few sent over funny one too it was like both of them like in tuxedos arms arm around each other at like the Oscars or something like very clearly not us and that actually went to print and it's like the whole you know that's a list of like all the top companies and then their teams and then it's like muzzle app and then our team photo is just right Gosselin Ryan like to think like the a

► 00:50:48

GE of the magazine knew what was going on it was like that's hilarious and right I think it's even funnier if they didn't know in the Cokie that looks about right send that look yes that was really really funny I think the biggest one that we did was I think adweek we got picked up by adweek I know if you remember that one or not I do yeah that we made the ad week yeah that one was was pretty big an example of a good website it was all the website that Garnet all the attention the app just was the underlying thing the excuse to have a website

► 00:51:18

but if the app didn't work it would have failed yeah it's a symbiotic relationship so the app needs website website needs the app I mean either way that I could have just made a website with like funny notifications popping up in the side although a lot of people have asked us so let's so a couple things come out there one people asked us to build a several I did that I built that so in fact it's actually disabled but it is included in muzzle there is a there is a feature that would let you enable apps that would post those actual embarrassing notifications

► 00:51:48

Mac desktop and what I had to do is I had because you can't customize the icon for a nap right so if I wanted to show like a mail message coming in with a receipt from Amazon for a dildo order if I post that from muzzle my app it's always going to use my apps icon you can't just tell the API in Mac OS a use the mail app icon which makes sense right because you don't want to apps like faking person apps exactly so I built a bunch of smaller apps that are bundled inside muzzle that

► 00:52:18

use the icon for that app so each of the notifications comes from one of these little sub apps so that it posts the right icon and then I just you know stole apples mail icon and put it in this own little app and then I was all set to ship this and then I realized that apple does not like funny things I would have to sign it with my developer certificate and I have apple got pissed off they would just revoke my developer certificate which would also kill code kit worldwide for everyone that uses it instantly and that

► 00:52:48

the risk that I could run so Aaron offered to let me ship it under his developer account so I think we might do that

► 00:52:55

yeah I mean I'm a lot of people asked for that that was like the number one feature they're like can I have like hundreds of emails the opposite do I want the opposite of what this app does I want to inject all of these notifications on my friends app I don't want them to hide I want them to be popping up in and flowing in that that was my fear is that what somebody would do is take it and install muzzle a pain you know like the kindergarten yeah I forgot my kids in kindergarten dude and then he would be you know get his can we say panties in a bunch I don't know it is that like a loud in 2020 that's awful

► 00:53:24

bunch I think it was it you get his panties in a bunch and go complain to Apple there's a virus on my Mac it's posting fake notifications and an apple well I would definitely they would definitely revoke that I'm sure I can when we had that I think there was one idea where we said maybe you could just pull in tweets with a certain hashtag and use those as the notification so then that you could kind of crowd Source them obviously you know where that would devolve to pretty quick yeah we're not all been well it pretty make sure of that and then just like the most

► 00:53:54

unfunny notifications you could ever heard of like people right the stupidest stuff yeah I have a I have a side note on that I back when kind of can't remember there was a website that was you would know FML do you make guys remember FM oh yeah I remember him yeah anyways I created a website that was basically a clone of that but I called it normally me or something like that and it was from like the I think it was Dane Cook or somebody

► 00:54:24

the everyday normal guy and I'm going like back into internet archives but anyways so I created that and I started off creating just some funny posts and then immediately it just turned into people just writing like super depressing shit like normally my normally my friends call me back when I shit a message but not today or whatever I'm like oh God this is the shut it down

► 00:54:54

people just are not good at writing stuff at the general I mean not that I even think that we're I don't know not either particularly great at it just worked but I should I should add that you know humor worked for us but that is because a we have really thick skins and so when people you know when the mob comes for us we're able to say take some feedback right and change say the the dick pic text but then look at the therapy appointment thing and go no it's reasonable you know we're not offending anybody Brad's an unreasonable request

► 00:55:24

even with that too though I mean I feel like it worked because it also falls under like the guise of like the umbrella of like satire like it's not you're not being we're not actually meaning any of these things and I think it comes through as sarcasm yeah and satire so it's like nice would be if you are going to also try to use humor in your product launch be careful because it is a lightning bolt and it can either kill you or you know like send you up the charts and make you go viral nothing really goes viral

► 00:55:54

viral like humor if a lot of people find something funny then that get shared and retweeted and sent around more than you know something that is just great high-quality really good but you know it just doesn't have that yeah I mean I'm sick wha I think it's not necessarily humor to but just emotions like things that spread really far other things that pull on your emotions one way or the other like you know really bring you a lot of joy and happiness or like pull your heartstrings a little bit sadness goes pretty far humor also goes really far and even

► 00:56:24

when people people wanted us to even include tweet so if you notice like the was it doesn't have anywhere else it's like tweet this which would have been really easy for us to build out a little like tweet this button people like this will go even further but I felt like the way that it was going to be shared was for people to kind of like jokingly share it you know and I think that like not have obviously you couldn't A/B test this but I feel like not having it a share button there too well you don't know what you're you don't know what you're getting someone just sends you a link and then you open it up and then all the sudden you're like you don't

► 00:56:54

know what you're looking at and then you see notifications yeah like it was part of that like it was almost like they were discovering the comedy and then sharing that that's what I felt like what I wanted to do if people were more like Aunt like what do you think all these growth hackers and like what are you doing in like you know when all this stuff and I just felt like letting it naturally let it it only would work if it was a naturally passed on thing I felt like I didn't want it to be like this cheesy like share this you know like that's funny see if you want it yeah so I've got two questions

► 00:57:24

sessions one do you guys wish that you would have charged something for this app and to do you think if you did charge something for it would have would have worked as well

► 00:57:38

I mean I have my thoughts on that Brian what do you think I think if we had charge something for it it would have still gotten shared a lot right because the site was funny but I don't think that all those visitors would translate into users of the app right they the conversion rate would go down in our conversion rate was really really high I mean I think we had like six or seven percent higher we were at like I want to say we were at like 25 percent conversion so early on yeah even for the longest time so the things I had to filter out

► 00:58:08

to get that 25 percent conversion rate is like filtering out the people who could actually click download and use it because like I have to filter out like okay anybody's on the phone this then if it doesn't apply to them dude you don't filter out the conversion rate you tell the VCS that it's 25% and you get your 90 million dollars of just assume they can install it on their phone so you know it was it was it was incredibly high already I think that the seven percent or whatever for those not an industry like a 2% conversion rate is considered great you know you hit two percent you're doing everything right then you so

► 00:58:37

so why that's important because you can scale that right so like if two percent of our users are converting that just means that need to get more users on the site and I'm going to make more money right so we were you know several times higher than that with 7% normally and then like when I felt it on the people who are actually on a Mac on the desktop it was like the people who could actually downloaded use the app we were like super high amongst them like one in four people who could actually your conversion was only tracked by in this is you know Testament to Jones and his hate for Analytics

► 00:59:08

something I don't know what it is it a try that yeah you're tracking was merely did they click the download button wrecked not good they install it and all that stuff right yeah so just just to download yeah it just if they if this is the download button was clicked which we ended up I think we're at like 60,000 downloads at this point some may be higher yeah it was like really really high coverage will attack we actually added a script to the site that took control of your mouse cursor and just click the down here as soon as you went might explain the 25 percent coverage

► 00:59:38

that would be nice little highly recommend will share that one we charge for that one that's a 10,000 yeah Java Library so to answer the question I think and like both of those because a lot of people came to me and were like why aren't you making money with this like oh my God like how many downloads is that like if he charged like five dollars like how much money would you have right time 60,000 I think that two things one it wouldn't have been shared as much like a reach would have been as far because people thought that they were one discovering something's funny and to sharing it because it was a tool that

► 01:00:08

you could immediately have for free it was like they were sharing the humor alive was paired along with the tool that was for free so I think charging money would have both like lowered our conversion rate obviously and then also I think what a lowered our reach considerably as well it still would have been shared some but I don't think it would have been to the extent that it really was however making money with muzzle is potentially on the road map I don't know if you want to feel teaser that Brandon what's coming from my perspective it would have been nice you know to make

► 01:00:37

money but I didn't need to make money at the time code kit was doing well is doing well that's my primary app and in retrospect you know it was nice to give something back to the community folks that use max for free you know just put something out in the world that people use that's how I got started developing you know with less dot app and it was kind of fun to go back to those days and just see a ton and ton of people use something you created and write to you and tell you all these fun stories about how it saved their ass or you know how they enjoy it or how they got a laugh out of the website

► 01:01:08

so it was not everything in life is valued in terms of dollars and cents which is easy to say when you have dollars and cents I get that but it was fun just to put something out there and see it used and see the reactions from people and I got a huge kick out of that dude who wanted me to change the notifications to him for getting his kids at kindergarten which also has like a terrible parent who forgets their kids why would you want that on the internet my God I forgot my kids well Bob maybe how Social Services

► 01:01:39

well he's so then he's not wrong at that might be embarrassing yeah exactly no so you know obviously it would be nice to make money and on that note people sometimes email me and ask if muzzle is dead I've had a guy offered to buy it from me I told him sure I would sell it to him for 9 million he did not reply and you know I think it is I don't want to give any details but muzzle 2.0 is under development it's running on my Mac it's crashing all the time it's good it will hopefully

► 01:02:07

Not Crash so much when I ship it but it is on the horizon so hang on yeah okay so we won't get into the other features stuff that's coming for it but it will be paid version for it and then we'll really care about really priced fairly price paid version fairly press if you know anything about Brian software he doesn't overly charge for his stuff I think I've argued several times each charge more for some of the stuff that's why that's why he has six roommates yeah I do wish

► 01:02:37

you're going back when I launched code kid I do wish I had launched it with higher prices I think I think the lowest price the code get has a range of prices you can choose and I think the lowest one of the time was $12 which was yeah a little-little oh no suspect yeah so then that leads into what the hell are we doing here why is this called unmuzzled and what's going on

► 01:02:58

well II got with you guys and said hey we should do a podcast because everybody tells me we should do a podcast and then we didn't know what to call it and we went back and forth on that and then Brian Burkett texted and said I got the name it's unmuzzled which I think speaks to us because you know like I said we're not afraid of the mob we're not afraid of people lashing out online and we just speak our minds and I like that the two of you agree with me that we're not super into cancel culture and the whole outrage stuff that seems to have taken over the on

► 01:03:27

world in the past few years so I think it's good to put that perspective out there and remind people that we live in a free society and you can say things and be open to feedback and receptive and just not be an asshole to people and and still speak your mind and not be afraid that you have to hunker down and and never say anything for fear of offending somebody yeah I mean I really think that the goal here for this podcast which is we haven't talked about on any of the episodes we have so far no

► 01:03:57

I don't know that we've talked about well my goal my goal from what we've been doing for the previous ones you have like a dream board on your wall it's just got Ryan Reynolds and Ryan Gosling like someday it'll be me it's I think that what we've been what we've done and we've evolved over this is cool to like we've kind of had like a hot take on like what's going on in both the industry in the world and mostly kind of relating to back to Tech and I think that that really does speak to how we built muzzle app.com

► 01:04:27

how we launched it how we dealt with a lot of that crazy feedback a lot of it's just that we're doing now is I hope hopefully I mean it's really great for me it's personal like I love to having these conversations you guys every week we're talking about like really relevant shit that's going on in the world that's like really confusing and I don't think that we're here to have the answers but we're here to like have the conversation you know and like start that and see where that goes and be receptive to that I'd be curious to see people agree with us on a great that's like I'd love to learn from other people like how we learned with like oh shit maybe we shouldn't have had that

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a dick pic on there that's interesting okay I didn't think about that and then I kind of you know learn from that now things were talking about on here a little bit more substantial than dick pics sometimes so I think it's just really interesting to see how people go and I think we're kind of on brand with that kind of just like throw it up there see what happens kind of situation you know yeah yeah yeah I was I said I think we're we've slowly discovered that you know Finding like a conversation with in tech meeting Humanity I think is

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where it gets interesting and for me when I consume news and even Twitter feeds or whatever where it's people talking about tech and the things that are going on and my opinion it's so it's often very sterile it doesn't actually get into some of the weeds it doesn't actually talk about maybe the Nuance of it it doesn't talk about how does why is this going on in contrast with what's happening within society and we could get into that but there

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there's sometimes there's opinions and voices that are not shared for certain reasons within the tech community and I think you know we're just going to try to be a little bit of that and and I'd like like you said Burkett get some feedback on it too just what I think is I think you just went full circle with it which is really really awesome is that Brian said that like what we did with muzzle was to bring the humanity into that right and not to be so super sterile and so then applying that same kind of lends to the happenings of both

► 01:06:27

in society and in the tech World itself like seeing how it looks like episode of touched on tour just like okay how are we handling privacy how we handling racism on these platforms how are we handling like data with covid how we and all this stuff and so it's like really really like we're just applying that Humanity to technology right yeah which goes first full circle from our approach that's cool yeah I mean we should probably not talk ourselves up too much because we know nothing about anything and are basically just here to have

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conversations but I find that I get to learn a lot and develop opinions and refine kind of what I think about things by listening to other people talk about them those are some of my favorite podcasts especially Joe Rogan and all the guests he has on and the experts and just going back and forth with them and I like that he has Humanity in his interviews I hope we get to do that here you know that we don't become just like a sterile here's what happened in the world of Apple Today podcast yeah and yeah I'm glad to be doing it also shout-out to macrumors

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whom I emailed all of them to tell them about muzzle when we launched it and not a single one of them ever replied to me I think that's probably you macrumors yeah they don't they don't like our humor but you know they have those boxes are supposed to go up to do not reach out to sponsor us actually if you want to go ahead we probably need some money that's me flashlight apps on iOS right did he put all these so I was like oh well maybe they'll tell people about muzzle and crickets rickety yeah

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well I think that's gonna do it for us today because it is 423 our time we're now recording and Brian Burkett has a client meeting with flashlights at 4:30 hard stop he said hard stop no pun intended and we'll be back though next week for the next episode of unmuzzled until then you can find us on our I actually am not shitting you we have a real honest-to-god website it is unmuzzled FM and we will see you back

► 01:08:26

back here next week Tuesday possibly Wednesday maybe Monday do we record on Monday I used to do one days we'll be back listen you're not getting away from us that easy all right take care guys shit you all you all know guys I can't say guys anymore