#804 - Sam Harris

Jun 1, 2016

Sam Harris is a neuroscientist and author of the New York Times bestsellers, The End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation, and The Moral Landscape. His podcast called "Waking Up" is available on iTunes & Stitcher.

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hello ladies and gentlemen this podcast is ridiculously long Sam Harris and I just started talking and I don't take what we talked about it just got crazy to the point where we had no idea how much time at 1 I really didn't know, Jamie told me was four and a half hours I was.

I don't know what happened but fascinating as always this episode of podcast brought you by Jamie's friend James friend Tim talk anymore songs dad Jamie's friend Jamie's friend with the foodie app and I Jimmy told me about this actually saw it on Instagram I think I followed them and they have an application that is a lot like what's its photo-sharing for food you know some people get annoyed if you show too many pictures of your food on the Instagram to get mad at you like it I love it I love watching people cook I don't know why you don't like eggs look something real simple videos on Facebook that are going crazy just a little short one minute videos of people making cool good good looking food it's fun it's so food is an app that lets you share the photos of your kitchen you food or drinks whatever something like that she something like you can swipe right and save it to your kitchen or bar so it's like Tinder for food so people people really get horny about food recipes you can save on it too if you want to

make it home or remember where you saw it and go back to the home feed is a simple feed where you can see pictures recipes of the people that you follow so it's kind of like Instagram and he can you know go to upload recipes people get that don't look right now getting angry birds like for a lot of people it's like a it's a visual art form as much as it is you know people have to decide what they want to have to eat and for some folks they really look forward to a Jamie succulents the perfect temperature of the texture

chicken search for recipes restaurants dishes and drinks nearby and worldwide in the Discover section so it's like I yelled for food too so it's called food EP hoodie that's p h o o d i e I guess foodie with an F was taken is that what that is

beautiful

we're also brought to you by onnit.com Onnit I've done is commercial so many times there's no way to do it any differently so I'll keep you briefed on it is a total human optimization website I will try to sell is the things we find beneficial whether it's a strength and conditioning equipment like kettlebells and battle ropes and things along those lines things that promote what you would call functional fitness whether it's through awesome snacks like our Warrior protein bars made with Organic buffalo meat MCT oil and emulsified MCT oil that you can blend in cold drinks much too much stuff to talk about but if you go to the website Onnit click on the academy Lincoln check out some articles and find out what it's all about and if you're in Austin Texas go to the on Academy and actual gym that's in Austin it's awesome but it's state-of-the-art awesome equipment and it also has 10th Planet jiu jitsu

uzicko word Rogan and you'll save 10% off any and all supplements all right my yesterday's the great the wise the fascinating and today quite terrifying Sam Harris

The Joe Rogan Experience

the infamous Jane double finger gun stopped eating meat to the last time you heard about that want to talk to you about that and I don't know that it's correlated with health at every time I worry about this out loud I get hate mail from vegans and vegetarians they stop putting your bullshit on us they don't like when you associate any negative consequences whatsoever with only vegetables it called It's a Wonderful called the people that want to take care of animals be nice to animals but they're very tribal very tribal very cult-like and if you say anything that's negative against vegans they gang up I go to forms and I read the things they say they organized like little troll attacks and they make YouTube videos that I have Valeria's like from a psychological standpoint yeah I mean obviously I don't want to become a new religion or

my my one religion but there is a moral High Ground to the position that I find very attractive because I felt like a hypocrite as a mediator now I'm and I don't think it's nice that extends to Someone Like You who hunts and feels okay but hunting I don't have an argument against hunting the way I do against factory farming or more more more of the way we can meet you know the the environmental implications of it but it's so it is very captivating as a position and you feel like an ass on which one do you want to go far enough into the the inquiry you feel like an asshole not being sensitive to these concerns and just ignoring how you're getting your food three times a day but

I'm not your for me I'm a b I'm sure there's an individual variation and I'm not the smartest vegetarian in the world in terms of how I prepare my food and and how attentive I am to it so the owners of someone on me but I am I'm not totally sure it's the healthiest thing for me yet so I thought you were so you say I've started you said you look healthy I'm bi but I feel like my health is someone that will it rain under this has been about nine months are you getting your blood checked are you doing yeah 12 supplementation yeah that's an essential oils essential D3 is Essentials well most people just not going to get enough from the sun right arm and Dad are you monitoring your intake of fatty acids and things on those lines not really be on the supplementation I'm just trying to get the food in what's a good Saul good stuff but it's really important like there's what was things that people rage against unfortunately it's the stigma

and it's fats it's dietary cholesterol and dietary cholesterol and saturated fats which are critical for hormone production it's one of the reasons why people when they get an all-vegetable diet if they're not really careful with coconut oil coconut oil I'm a big fan of avocados I eat a lot of avocados while I was out of oil a lot of coconut oil as well though almond butter nuts things on his line so cute you really need to get those essential fats are not vegan so I would like to be begging but but I'm still eating dairy and I would like to be no one's holding you know what's holding you down to God damn it Sam you need to have some milk no no I think just I think I would screw it up again I'm going to reap the Whirlwind the wind from the evidence but I should have brought you some eggs I can only eat so many eggs and and so much Dairy but I eat a lot of eggs legs are very good for me to hear something there's nothing dietary cholesterol like people are always concerned with dietary cholesterol well that was a

big mess for the longest time. As matter fact dietary cholesterol barely moves the needle on blood lipids a lot of them people have cholesterol issues it's sedentary lifestyle there is genetics there is all sorts of other variables but people with healthy life doesn't doesn't seem to be that dietary cholesterol is bad for you and also it's essential for testosterone production yeah yes or no I I get a ton of not a ton but I am not trying to avoid saturated fat bro I so I am I get a fair amount of yard yeah could you raise some chickens know know how..... Show you the chicken set up we have we just got five new ones we have 18 now one of them died this fucking die sometimes you don't know why I just going to check and coupons dad like all right by the time got in there with his size and getting kind of old now some of them

I don't know how old the chicken lasts honestly but they're like pets that give you a hoot like there's no negativity I open the door they come up to me the run-around I feed them like there's no they're not trapped as a matter fact that go into their their pain at night like you leave it open and they wander around my have a big yard they want her in my yard to eat a bunch of bugs and stuff and then they go back inside when they want to so there's no like animal captivity is no cruelty there's nothing weird going on until those eggs they're pretty much Karma free how are Darien and eggs are got to admit it's it's arguably as bad if not worse than much of the meat production so it you know you're moving from eating meeting me to being a vegetarian in some ways is a symbolic move ethically if you if you really wanted to do not participate in the Machinery but there's an issue with my vegetarianism

there's an issue with how they gather food I mean there's there's a giant issue that people don't want to take into consideration it's like how are they growing all this food how they growing all these plants will one of them's our doings are displacing Wildlife the chewing up his ground and these combines if you eat grain particular combines indiscriminately just chew up all that stuff and they get deer fawns mice rabbits rabbits rodents Untold amount of bugs if you want to get really deep mean there's no like being a vegan and being a vegetarian is most certainly less cruel and less harmful overall but it's not Karma free it can't hear unless you're growing your own stuff if you can grow all your own vegetables and you essentially live in a small farm yeah you could do you could do it and really feel good but it's if you buying it in a store you're participating in factory farming with you like it or not you just participating it vegetable farm

but it's there's still issues oh yeah yeah just fewer I had this guy on my podcast Uma valeti who's running this company called Memphis Meats which is cultured meat start up until it's okay and I haven't tried to know I don't want I want to try but it was a fascinating conversation because he basically it would was fascinating to me on 2 episodes is on the cusp of being able to produce actually biologically identical meat that is that is totally sure that it is if there's no there's no implication cruelty at all in it right and you just will just grow grow this in a vat the way you unibroue beer essentially and so that's you know that seems like the future but what's interesting psychologically is that people have this this creepy feeling around it which is very strange because he's home

I'm telling you I can take the misery and death out of the process where I can take the suffering animal out of it I can take the chaos of the slaughterhouse out of it there's no you know how that has been mistreated for his whole life stumbling and blood and feces on the way to the you know that the Killing Floor and somehow removing all of that makes it creepy people right they want they want they want that and that's the natural way to get meat and if I told you this is grown in a bad by a guy in a white lab coat and has no Zeno viruses and no bacteria nothing you know antibiotics are used to take me to pump this thing up as just a cell's you want people start to get this feeling that that that I think we're going to get over but it's interesting psychologically that if it's their first what's up did you get that in feeling or you just talk and help people that know I I I I understand it and I'm past it but I understand it do you know that got it that feeling just like to see the reaction

I actually pulled this on Twitter and 25 for Santa Fe High 15,000 people at answer the polls it was like he was it it's not a scientifically valid pull up a general population it's just whoever got it on my on my feet but it was interesting to say I asked you know of the people who wouldn't switch I asked would you switch and something like 80% said they would switch at this was affordable and available and save but of the people who wouldn't switch it was 25% wouldn't switch because it's just creepy and 25% assume that it was not healthy I think I forgot to put the four of the break down another 25% with it we're already vegan or vegetarian and then didn't want to eat meat but there's there was an ick factor for at least 25% of people who wouldn't do it I understand it I wonder how many people would go back to eating meat

if they can raise it this way like how many people have gone vegan would go back to eating this scientifically created a lab-created beef enough for a serious market for sure will there be a serious market for for sure if they could get the kit cost effective was the last time sounds like a quarter million bucks I mean it'll eventually be like you know the Apollo computers now fit in your pocket much stronger in fact in the computer's switches passing sequencing a genome 15 years ago cost three billion dollars it's now $3,000 reduction in cost in 15 years that's insane so it's something by babe the things tend to scale that way so yeah that's a giant scale dough in human history

3 billion of it 15 years ago you like if I just fucking waited to save so much money

MSN we don't anticipate that when we think of how difficult it is to solve certain problems we don't and this is Ray kurzweil's Point Ray Kurzweil who I think is is a bit of a cult leader and a Carnival Barker on many topics of this this point makes it again and again I think it's quite valid which is when you're factoring how difficult it will be to get into the end zone whatever that end zone is you're not tending to factor all of the improvements and and the compounding improvements in technology along the way so I would love to get back to Ray Kurzweil but I wanted to bring up this point about did you want to think about going vegan especially when you Proclaim and you go public with going vegan if you back out of that they get mad did you see that family a couple that runs a bunch of vegan restaurants and they decide to start eating meat again even though they're all American restaurants they decided to start

they have their own Farm they raise their own cat on his side of eating their own cattle was real weird too because they brought there's a lot of Jesus in their message there was a lot of like Jesus said that you know we're supposed to take care of the ant like biblical quotes in like really obscure biblical quotes about food okay like what are you doing here but they have here it is vegan revolt against owners of famous La vegan restaurants after meeting outed you could say the outed because I'm pretty sure they put it on their Facebook page or when the guy was like first cheeseburger in 15 years is this this Cafe Gratitude yes which food is good but we've been there no so everyone I forgive me if I if this is no longer true but at one point every employee there did the the landmark forum know that these the successor to ask for that

this this this was this was a close one of the restaurants because I've never done this so I'm speaking outside the because walls but her heart was a a 60s human potential figure who started asked never met him but obviously impressive enough as a person to get a lot of people to spend a lot of time doing whatever he said and he had this he had to the growth of course called asked which has been

we've seen it in many movies no name comes to mind now but some version of this where you can keep everyone in the room and you people have to ask permission to go to the bathroom and it's kind of like a pressure-cooker situation socially where you have everyone sort of torn down actually the classic case of this I think that's what this wasn't as this was the form which is now the successor to ask they were at one point hired to do coaching of the universe companies and I think her heart by the FAA Road by this one of my books is in a footnote I was at the FAA I'm hired at The Forum to Eno coach their their administrators and one of the exercises they were seized got to do is almost certainly were mostly guys they chained the the boss to his secretary and had for like a whole day and I had to go to the bathroom together and likely just the sort of your ego and

I waited experience anyway this is this is the the recipe that that are you in one of the recipes that that asked his pioneered this is not to say that people don't go to The Forum and get a lot out of my I've actually met those people but the every employee of this restaurant

apparently has gone now or you used to go do the Forum so it's a very are you walking to the restaurant and your interaction with with people in the restaurant is is unlike most restaurants people are just very big lots of eye contact and lend it's just as intense as restaurant menu this is just so lacerating I can ever comply but the the name of everything on the menu is like I am humble I am magical I am I am not selfish or so you have two men to order it that way like I'm humble oh God I don't have and I am humbly as you sow and give it to you if you are humble that that becomes a little back with a long way in a restaurant

okay well they're retarded that's what's going on and if you go through this good they're like I don't don't give me the wrong way the food is good that it makes sense then that they would go all Jesus irreligious E when they were trying to justify their meat consumption quotes for them justifying their meat consumption cuz it was real weird cuz like how weird is that these guys are like using Jesus and religion to justify eating cows when they been a vegan for all those years like did you do not listen to Jesus all those other years like you like Fuck You Jesus I'm not eating meat like what was the what was the turnaround there it doesn't make any sense why don't think you can pull veganism out of the Bible unless I guess if you go back to the Garden there's nothing about them eating meat right it's just it was all provided from the trees that is no slaughterhouse in the in the garden of vegetarianism is fairly Old Maid vegetarianism has been around in Hindu cultures and different cultures forever but not veganism right I mean veganism is really fair

PreSonus pretty and practical okay hurting remnants of our best tool to restore fertility to the Earth keep the earth covered in Reverse desertification and climate change you wrote we need cows keep the Earth alive cows make extreme sacrifice for Humanity but that's their position in God's plan as food for the Predators whoa that's a strange quote but I think there was more of them but that's good enough but there was there was more of that kind of stuff like all the sudden he's a predator Predators go after animals they chase him down and they kill him it will I guess we're kind of predators in a way but we're some new thing we're some completely new thing we we use weapons or we Corral them if you got them corralled and you just stick in that No Country for Old Men thing in their head and stomach and killing them with it and that's what they're doing right now if you're a lot of cars have a predator

yes and chimps are predators not entirely but yeah I are that to we're certainly a kind of a predator but we're so much different now and this is what we're talking about we talked about factory farming and these weird businesses where they slam all these animals that is entirely too small places and they live in their own feces and urine and I'm sure you seen that Drone footage from the pig farm I've seen a lot of pig farm put his but I don't know if it's in the trunk for the lakes of urine it's disgusting unbelievable they just got flu this thing I mean they have these ag-gag laws we are evil and if you don't know what those means what what that means a gag laws or laws that they make it a federal crime to show all the abuse of these animals to show factory farming because it'll affect the business so drastically and so radically when people are exposed to the truth

they made it illegal those laws should be illegal knives are scary that's a scary aspect of human being I've never seen this wasn't some toxic lake that's a lake of pee and poo and all those things are stuffed to the gills with pigs there's a book eating animals Jonathan Safran Forest book which is worth reading if you think you're immune to the details cuz that it's just a minute there's the two aspects with there's the the cruelty aspect which is actually three aspects of the cruelty aspect which is horrific there's the environmental energy use issue which is also just totally untenable and then there's just the if you have any concern about your own health and the contamination I'm just getting all these antibiotics that you know when prescribed to you that you don't want that still getting into you through this food chain and I mean just the stuff

what's the day like the chickens admitted to the details about chicken farming this is almost the most horrible but they're they're covered in just a just the most of the foulest no pun intended of the day just the most disgusting material they going to be like a bra that's just like pure bacteria and I mean they have to be washed with ammonia or whatever they do they put on the mistress it really watch for the moment I forget the details on this is just Dum the the details of what goes on from the chickens actually I think Laura said because they're so small and in more of the process of killing them is automated that they always get the worst of it because they're and they're just they're like you know they're getting singed before they're done before that mean it's just it's just not

I'm at least wake owl you got it was a single person interacting with a single cow however briefly and it's there's less chaos and in the in the Machinery put chickens just get pulverized and I that mean that's arguably that's the one of the greatest pain Point ethically comes around just just egg industry because fully half the chickens the male chicks just immediately get get thrown into a little bit like a meat grinder you know because they're not the same chicken that is a broiler Chicken genetically been out the same and then I'll grow into the same kind of chicken that would be useful so they they're their useless and so they don't lay eggs in you if you don't eat them and so they just get literally just said into a like a wood chipper alive in some ways an artifact of them being so small that it would be so much of a hat just too much of a hassle

to stun them appropriately right magically had to give me the law we had a very the Mamba little crosses in the ground be labor-intensive I mean billions him I was on the highway and there was a chicken truck that was passing me one of those trucks it's containing live chickens and they just stacked to Stacked in cages on top of each other caterer on top of cage on each other and I'm watching this in like it's so weird that were allowed to do that with some animals like if you were doing that with horses people lose their fucking minds if you had dogs in boxes like that stacked and in the open-air on the highway and you're driving on the road then people would freak out but no one bats an eye these chickens this chicken truck is a with chickens are weird thing we have like a hierarchy of animals that we love them we're not really big in the reptiles no not really big into Birds it has something to do I think with

facial expressiveness a little bit and Miss of fish are also way down like the fact that fish have these cold expressionless face is no matter what happens that that some that cuts down on empathy but it's a I think it's it's size it's facial display and it's also the sounds they make a lobster could scream every time it went to the pot and it would be there or be a different encounter with you know just how much do I want to eat this thing and so something obviously like an ape or something that's cute and it is amazing what a what a fluffy tail will get you then and there soon squirrel and a rat right and yeah it's not it's crazy it is crazy squirrels to just hang out with everybody and we're cool with them they look so close to rats like God I'm so close it's like a hot girl sister like what the fuc so much it's so close there's an article today about some woman who had rescued a lobster from a rest

and dropped it off in the ocean and the journey of the saw and how you should think of this Lobster or something with a cute face and if you did then you would appreciate her efforts and understand that this Lobster even though they're not even capable of feeling pain and lobsters do they don't have enough nervous system they're nervous system is not strong enough for them to feel pain they don't have the same sort of sensors do we have allegedly threatened to do this action when I when I decided to become a vegetarian diet I said to add some point maybe I will just do it a taxonomy of the pain of a comparative neuroanatomy across species just to see where we could possibly say you're the suffering really begins to matter what was the only animal that you can make an argument that there's no

lobsters are clearly not happy when you throw in boiling water what's that reaction I think anything that can behave that I can move freely move away from a stimulus The evolutionary rationale for it to experience pain on tip of Consciousness is difficult me to wear Consciousness emerges and I think there is clearly unconscious pain mechanism of the same mechanisms that give us pain at a certain level we can be unconscious and yet they can be just as effective than all of our reflexes are like that so you know I hate you touch a hot stove you're pulling your hand away actually before you consciously register and that's as it should because you're faster that way so it's possible to have unconscious pain but anything they can move very quickly is going to evolve an ability to move away from noxious stimuli and that

there's every reason to make that unit in evolutionary terms as Salient and is as urgent as possible and then then our pain response is that for us and it has no reason to withhold that from any other animal that's clearly avoiding stuff with all of its in a power right yeah it seems to me that there's got to be all the way down to mushrooms cuz everybody eats mushrooms even vegans but mushrooms breathe in oxygen and they breathe out carbon dioxide their way closer to humans than they really are plants there weird there's a strange sort of an organism are not necessarily like a plant I mean we think of them as a plan cuz they grow but they're fungos you to type of life-form and I enter link through the mycelium will Terence McKenna mushrooms long enough that he would have some very spooky stuff that he thought about them but there's no nervous

amerimax right I think the The crucial variable is the complexity of a nervous system so suffering and pain in emotions when you're when you're on this others suffering it is one component of it but there's just a question of what sort of experience can this creature be deprived of rights when you ask like why is it a tragedy or why would it be a tragedy to to kill someone painlessly in their sleep right to the no suffering there right now if anything you've just ended whatever suffering they were going to have in their future Brian why would that be a tragedy that happened to all of us tonight right just need to do some some neurotoxin comes down from space and kills us all in our sleep and no sufferings associated with it

the only your ethically speaking the only problem there and it's a huge one is that it for closes all of the possible happy Futures most of us are all of us or at least some of us were going to have so the all of the good things that we could have done over the next million years aren't going to get done all of it Beauty all the creativity all of the joy all of that just gets canceled until so leaving the painfulness of pain aside in a why is it wrong to deprive any given animal of life well if they're in so far as that life has any intrinsic value is in so far as that insofar as the bean that animal is better than being nothing right then you're also just canceling all of that good stuff and for that and for any good stuff you need a nervous system for any pain you need to nervous system so far as we understand this other people who said you say any

it's tough when I couldn't like that experience I meant though right like you know if you ever thought of leaving pay attention of some of the more recent research on plant intelligence and calculations and they're exhibiting expressing some sense that cause when they're being eaten causes other other plants downwind to change their flavor you like probation there was a New Yorker article on this on this came out we it's weird weird stuff that plants do which I remember it's at the details of that article on it so clear to me I remember not knowing what to think about some of it but some of it clearly can be explained in evolutionary terms that doesn't imply any experience it just it could all be dark right it's all blind mechanism but so do you still have an evolutionary lines the Consciousness as we know it

is what's most valuable to you it's the only thing that's valuable to anything it's like it when you talk to him talk about value but I was like it you know if this if this cup has no experience rytas of Truth my Trading Places with it and so far as you can make sense of that concept is synonymous with with just canceling my experience will then there's this cup is conscious there's nothing there's like to be the cup when I break it I haven't created suffering I haven't I haven't done anything unethical to the cup I have no ethical responsibilities toward the top of the moment you give me something that can be made happy or be made miserable depending on how I behave around it or toward it will then I'm ethically entangled with it and then it's and then and that begins to scale

I think we're fairly linear way with just how complex the thing is so and I understand it may be something we even talked about on the previous podcast you know if I'm driving home today and I'm in a bug hits my windshield you know that that has whatever it ethical implication has but it's given what I believe about bugs and given how small they are and given how little they do and given how primitive their nervous systems are you know I'm not going to lose sleep over killing a bug if I hit a squirrel I'm going to feel worse if I had a dog I'm going to feel worse than ever because must kid I'll be so happy I may never get over it even if I live to be a thousand right so the that the scaling and granted their cultural Creations are so you likely can I justify but not the way I feel about a dog as opposed to a deer you know that there's a difference but

the the difference is one of richness of experience in too far as we understand what other species experience you can make that argument to justify eating animals as opposed to being accountable right you can say what what kind of experience does a deer have their just running around the woods try not to get eaten they eat grass they made it's very simple it's very simple experience in comparison to your average

person that lives in Los Angeles read books you know when someone who goes there a lot of trips someone has a lot of love once someone who has a great career someone is deeply invested in their work just wanted to do is much more complexity and the deer behave just as deer all over the place and it's a very primitive sort of a life-form will he go further and further back like what did it seems like you can keep going with that and one of the things that I like that concerns me the most about plants not concerns me but puzzles me the most about plans is whether or not the way I look at them me personally my prejudices about them I just not thinking at all of them is being conscious what if we think about things in terms of the complexity of their experiences just because we're we're prejudiced about things that move means entirely possible that like it's going to sound really stupid but I've said a lot of stupid shit I want to do a grow room once like a pot grow room that is Mack Daddy grow room and I walked in I was like this

it's like being in a room full of people this feels weird as fuck it feels it felt very weird it felt like there was a tangible like Vibe of life in there is no other way to describe that without sound like a complete moron here but but I did but it was my experience I know what it's like to be that moron I'm not saying that we shouldn't eat plants I'm not. I'm so people who are already up in arms at their Twitter fingers ready to get off but what I am saying is it's entirely possible that all things that are alive have some sort of a way of of being conscious may not be mobile may not be as expressive but there might be the Stillness of you without language when you're in a place of complete peace when you're in a Zen meditative State what about that Stillness is really truly associated with being a human or really truly associated with being an English

thinking person in North America almost nothing it's just an existence right and everything else would have branches out from that and then humans we all make the agreement that of course it branches out far further and wider than any other animal your how do we know that these plants are branching out like that to how do we know that if they're having some communication with each other if they're responding to predation if they're literally changing their flavor of the doing all these calculations only strange things they're finding out the plants are capable of doing what what is going on there we don't know necessarily agnostic on the question of how far down Consciousness goes and I agree that there's very likely a condition of something like pure Consciousness that really is separable from the details of Any Given species miss something that I've experienced myself a it feels like I have you certainly have this experience will you know what is implications are you know I don't know but you can have the

names of just Consciousness and it doesn't have any personal or even human reference point so that is not you're not even he doesn't even have a reference point in one of the channel That the human sense channel so you're not seeing you're not hearing and smelling and you're not thinking and your yet you are so there is still just a few open conscious experience and whether that is that is what it's like to be a plant I don't know you know you cuz I don't know what the relationship between Consciousness and information processing in the brain actually is no it's not even though it's it's totally plausible in fact I think probably the most plausible thesis that there is some direct connection between information processing and the integrated information processing and Consciousness and that and that there is nothing that's like to be this cup and the end of the end atoms are not conscious

is an but yet but that the thesis that every the Consciousness goes all the way down into the the most basic constituents of matter that thesis is called panpsychism in-laws staying at Senor pan everywhere Cycles in mind so that this mine doesn't even sometimes everywhere in nature that's not you can't rule that out yet means that we know about the world tattoo roulette out what I think you can rule out is the date of the richness of the content of Consciousness in the species of plants or not having conversations like this right side pain plants don't understand what we're doing there's no way they would there's just no they don't have nervous systems are not that they can't be processing information in a way that would give them what we know is a razor Rich experience but your point about the time scale and movement is is totally valid if every time you walk into a room your

tell your Fern just turned in and looked at you you know a good trait is oriented toward you are in ons followed you around the room with its you know where that's leading Branch you would feel very different about the possibility that is conscious right you'd be a good person to ask this is that an urban myth that if you sing to your plants you play Plants music they grow better

I haven't looked into it I would have I would bet that it is yes it sounds like one of those things which makes you like crystals tell you I would bet it is a flower is Negro so beautiful it seems like one of those things would have as rich and experience as human beings but I don't think a deer has his rich and experience is human being either to me my my what my curiosity lies in the future of understanding plant intelligence like wouldn't it be fascinating if we found out the date like one of the reasons why psychedelic drugs puzzle me so much is that they exist in like there's a lot of plants you just eat them and you have your brain already has his place it will go if you eat these plants I'll give you eat peyote if you if you try to San Pedro cactus out this spring you can you can have like he's really powerful psychedelic experience is just from a plant like why does a human

interactive these plants like that like especially fungus when you have a major league mushroom trips it's very strange sort of feeling like you are in communication with another McKenna described It Best in that way that there's someone there that it's not just you and hallucinations it has its distinct feeling that you're still someone there and that someone

according to the the happiest of hippies is plan intelligence it's Matic mother Gaia it's the Earth itself it's all life it's love it's God it's all it all exists inside the the intelligence that's intertwined in nature is one of the most things that the one thing that's most puzzling about the most potent of all psychedelics is dimethyltryptamine that it's in so many different plants like to make dimethyltryptamine containing plants illegal would be hilarious like hundreds and hundreds of plant that have to make it legal including like phalaris grass is just really rich and 5 methoxybenzoic trip to me which is the most potent form of it also our own brains little lizards that have retinas and lenses were there pineal gland is there making it in a little screwy little lizard brains we don't even know what the hell is for the questions about her just so much

there's so many more questions or answers do you like The View you pay attention to Rick Strassman stuff the general did you know that the Cottonwood Research Foundation actually found mice brains producing dimethyltryptamine so it's been proven it's actually growing in the pineal gland the gland that they tow a suspect or not but that's crazy as a neuroscientist like does not kind of freaked you out that those Egyptians had those third eyes and like all the Eastern mysticism had that pineal gland highlighted it was like the end of shafts or staff to put those pine cones like how the hell do they know all that well there is a I'm in the third eye

metaphor or and it's not as more than a metaphor anatomically but it's it's a it's Nikki correlates with a kind of experience you can have I don't actually know if the experience people have that would be of this chakra if you need to talk in yoga terms I don't know if that has anything to do with the pineal gland that it may be because I don't think anyone's done this rise and their image experiment where you can get people who can reliably produced a a third eye opening sort of experience and and scanned the brains while they do it I'm back and I'm almost positive that that hasn't been done but there is a phenomenology hear of a people having a kind of inner opening of it's almost certainly largely a matter of the universe will cortex getting stimulated but you can you can meditate in such a way as to produce this experience and

it's also an experience that you have more or less on on different psychedelics some psychedelics are much more visual than others and it is certain doses in particular like mushrooms and and DMT would have never taken which which you can say better than I but it's it's reported to be quiet Visual and the

the experience at its most people when they close their eyes and less they had to have in hypnagogic imagery is before sleep or they just have to happen to be in a super good visualizers of imagery you close your eyes and you just basically have Darkness there right now the now if you close your eyes and if you're listening to this and you close your eyes when you look into the darkness of your closed eyes that actually is that it that is that is as much your visual field as it is when your eyes are open right and it's not like your visual field hasn't gone away when you close her eyes it's just it is now there's not much detail for you to notice again unless you are in somewhat unusual state but that based on on different techniques of meditation and this happened spontaneously again with a hypnagogic images were or what psychedelics that space can open up into a massive world of visual display right to even to see him in full-blown you

3D movie in there and it's a but most of us just take it for granted that when you close your eyes you keep your functionally blind you can't see anything and you were not interested in that space but you can actually train yourself to look deeply into that space as a as a technique of meditation vacations in people having eyewitness testimony and eyewitness experiences that turned out to not be true at all because if you think about the human mind and the imagination be able to being able to create imagery once the eyes are closed like you can and sensory deprivation tanks like 10 sensory deprivation tanks her a lot of people's experiences are very visual even though it's in complete darkness now you know how people see things and they thought they saw something and turn it up tonight be true at all whether it's Bigfoot or whether it's a robbery or a suspect in need to get the details completely all right. But isn't it possible that under feet

and when your your pulse is jacked up and your adrenaline's running and you're worried about all these possibilities in your imagination starts formulating predetermined possibilities you should be looking out for like what if it's Bigfoot what if it's a robber what if it's an alien what if it's in this and then these people that swear they saw these things that everybody knows they didn't like maybe there was video footage of whatever it was is it possible that your brain can do that to you and Tim can literally show you things that aren't real

oh yeah I can do that although I think the the unreliability of of witness testimony and it's shockingly unreliable is more a matter of memory that the corruption of memory & in the way memories are recalled their especially vulnerable when you're recalling them in the act of recall and is very easy to tamper with people's memory albeit inadvertently I mean you can do this on purpose to but but people just do it with bad interrogation techniques so you know that the cop will ask you in a so when did you see the one of the woman at the crosswalk and he's just put a woman at the cross walk into your memory right because you can't help it visualize and woman of the crosswalk and his memory is very fragile and so when you are whenever you were

giving an account of an experience even if it's an experience that happened half a second ago now we're in the domain of memory now it in the domain of of of just what you can report our night is not a matter of what you're consciously experiencing now I know there was a case in India where I believe it was a woman was convicted of murder through the use of an fmri or a functioning magnetic resonance imagery machine young and through this fmri they determined in some strange way that

she had functional knowledge of the crime scene and the argument against that I believed was that she could have developed functional member of the crime scene by being told you're being prosecuted for a crime you might go to jail for murder here's the crime scene near like it's 4 or just being unlucky enough to

be familiar that's normally when this gets done and they're people who do it in the States but they don't use fmri as their modality but they do they do some interrogate people's familiarity not any that use EEG is a s a.m.

as a way of monitoring their familiarity with Alyssa. Show them that you know if you are shown evidence from the crime scene that only the perpetrator could have seen you know hopefully it's really something that only the perpetrator could seeing but if you know the show you the picture and you know you see that oh yeah you know I have that Ikea end table and you know I have that dress from Banana Republic whatever that just by dint of bad luck you're familiar with with something that you're being shown from the crime scene especially if it's a murder you're talkin about someone who's she was probably intimate with she probably knew them at least so she's probably going by the house that would be obviously a case where you really couldn't do it at all that's it work one in the states as far as I know and losses has changed in the last year or so since I paid attention to this you can't us none of this is admissible in court only only the one case

what's a crazy premature use of the technology what is it what is it actually seeing what you have with EEG I think this is worked out more you can have a a canonical familiarity response to stimuli is if you've seen something again if you've seen something for the first time you know exactly what would be a novelty response seeing something for the third fourth fifth time would be a different response and you can this has been a long time since I've looked at this particular research and I don't know how you know I don't know what they're calling these these waveforms now and there was a p300 waveform at one point and they're at their way forms at come

from certain areas of the brain at certain timing intervals based on you know from the moment of receiving a stimulus in a less a photograph and they are the Hallmark of either being familiar or not with with this thing and yeah it's not

there's no question that at a certain point we will have reliable mind reading machines I think I'm not I think it's really just a matter of time I think there's also no question that we don't have them now it is who is not in a way that we can we can send some waves and send someone to prison on the basis of what their brain did an experiment but I mean just just as you and me anyting

I like a lot of lot of this in the most interesting stuff is unconscious but anything you're consciously aware of having seen before rights of you

you are show me this cup right and then 5 seconds later say is this the cup I showed you you know I have a a very clear sense of yeah that's the right and if you show me a completely different cup I'm going to be a very clear internal sense in us that's not the cup if you are having that experience you know that that is absolutely something about the state of your brain that can be discriminated by a person outside your brain running the appropriate experiment it is just the our tools are still sufficiently course that you know this is not like in a sequence in your DNA where we can tell ya that was you and your blood at the crime scene but eventually it will be it will be will be no basis to doubt it because

I'll be able to put you through a paradigm where

it'll just be clear I know your thoughts right so what do you think of how much Faith you would have in this technology if you could open your computer and read any file a file of your choosing that I have never seen right to the content of what you're completely completely blind to and I'm scanning your brain while you're reading this journal entry or a newspaper article or whatever and at the end of that I can say well based on this report you clearly read a story about Donald Trump and you you actually don't like Donald Trump and I could tell you in detail about we know what you were consciously thinking about

if you did that if you could do that a hundred percent of the time right at a certain point the basis to doubt the validity of the the mind reading machine which is go away you just it would be like it you know it's like are you here really hearing my voice right now yeah you certainly seem to know it it's it's just it would be, just a a background assumption that the technology works at a certain point just as the the meat is scary the fake meat got ideas terrifying the idea of losing the

losing in the ownership like losing a thought becoming non-autonomous like the idea of everybody sharing thoughts it seems almost inevitable I don't know that we would decide to do this

certainly I don't think we would do this all the time right and it might be Sunday when I can be no option we might be compelled to do it if you're in a murder trial right if you or someone who may have killed somebody you know you I mean the Fifth Amendment becomes interesting in that case but we have worked it out for DNA evidence you have a right to take the fifth but you don't have a right to withhold your blood from the preceding I get I get to look at your blood or saliva so you want to talk but I can read your mind and that's why I think that's a while and it says like the iPhone 8 case you know it's like I got this far decided that we can't compel Apple to unlock an iPhone this is just the ultimate case of that so you either did the argument in favor of Apple is this is far too intimate and far to comprehensive a look at a person's mind and once you have cracked their iPhone you with that you're basically walking

around the quarters at their brain that's that's a slippery slope we don't want to go down but ultimately we will be able to do it with Brian's and I think it obviously you're you're going to want all of the safeguards that you can easily imagine and probably some we have yet to imagine on this process but we safeguards in place I think it would be the best thing that could ever happen to us in terms of of you know when you look at a criminal justice system and when you look at the price we pay for not being able to tell whether someone is innocent or guilty or whether line it is just it is the most intolerable price it's just the amount of human misery born of not being able to demonstrate that someone is lying reliably it's just you know it's off

it's the biggest lever that I think we could pull certainly when you have prisons that are filled with a lot of people that are probably in hell yeah people have gone to the Gallows no doubt and we know the innocent people have been killed and have you noticed one way to deal with as you're going to be against the death penalty right so there's always a chance to find their innocence but you imagine being in prison on death row for 30 years and you're real for real I rape you didn't commit you know it's some it's so horrible and terrifying that would be it would be such a simple solution really now there are Corner cases that wouldn't be solved a big little people who are delusional or either easily self to see you to either would be lying and but you know so convinced of the truth of their lives that they would pass this this song A Lie Detector presumably

and then there people who are so so suggestible if that they can be led to believe something is not true of people who can be convinced you get these false confessions of in response to Crime I miss it is just one of the strangest things in the world that you know when you want someone get murdered this doesn't get publicized very much but it's a very common experience of police officers are you Police Department to hear from people in the community who are confessing to the crime and they didn't commit it they just come in and it said I did it and they they give all this into this bogus account of what happened and this is a sign of mental illness or these These are people seeking attention and some morbid way but there are people clearly who are so suggestible that they can

Eataly themselves to believe or be led by others to believe that they've done things I didn't do and any just shocking detail there was another New Yorker article on

it was written by William langewiesche years ago but on the satanic Panic case where a guy got accused of running a satanic cult by his daughter who was in the hypnotic hypnosis recovery therapy right so she had been LED down the Primrose path by her therapist and so she obviously was fairly suggestible and she recalled the most

lurid just insane Rosemary's Baby Style you know cult imaginable is going on her town where the friends of Dad we're coming over and raping everyone and it was going to go get a human sacrifice of infants in the minpins are buried by the barn and she work all of this that Dad was so suggestible that he just confessed and I think he was just a heat and he was giving more details and he went to prison I don't know what this is this is this is now an old article is probably like 10 or 15 years old but this guy this guy just fully confessed right and that the journalist I believe was Michael wish at the end they actually get a tattoo in prison right through the process is completed justice has been done the daughter is convinced that her her dad is a satanic monster and as he and he's now in prison and they went in and interviewed him

asking follow-up questions with the details that they made up because they they began to suspect that he was just this kind of suggestibility machine right who just talked to anything and so they went in and they just made up stuff like oh you know there's a few more details want to iron out your daughter said that there was a time where you know you got you brought in a horse and then that you were riding on the horse and and then you killed the horse and I'm making is he tells up then remember but something that they just concocted right and he said oh yeah yeah that's like a Twilight Twilight Zone episode where they like it now you realize that this guy has been put away is just saying yes to everything right and that's that's some so clearly that they were some of it I don't know again I don't know if he ever wrote a follow-up on this because this would ever call and this this is like a fifteen-year-old story it just they ended with like me now the Twilight Zone moment we're now you realize

this guy is innocent into saying yes to everything and his daughter is crazy right she shares his Gene and I would that but he made the story and perhaps there's more to the story but the story on his face was totally escopitory like it like that the reader experience was you got to let this guy at a prison tomorrow pictures of fucked and you need if he gets out he's mine is probably so screwed up by this whole experience and if he really does believe that he ran the Satanic rituals just the guilt and shame of it all and assuming it is mindworks me this is the thing that I wonder how many people are like functionally deeply deeply damaged but they're functional like they're they're they're going to the same school do you go to the work where you work but they're barely a person they're like all their connections are all fucked up but you went to the back wiring or their head if you were like an appliance repair person I saw your TV net

how to go back at what the fuck is all this mean how many people like that are just sort of kind of functional my question is if we do get to a point we can read minds what if you go under their mind and you find out all this is what they really think like this is not a liar this is a person who's seeing things that aren't there like a person who's completely delusional like people that have these hallucinating hallucinogenic Visions like Pete some people have like really like deeply troubling visual images that they were fucking people really are seeing that and if you could read their mind you would you would like literally be inside the mind of a person's mind isn't functioning we can get sort of an understanding about what that would be like this has been done in a very simple way where you could with schizophrenic so mostly have auditory hallucinations you can now detect auditory cortex activity Soma

Taps misinterpretation we just know that they're there auditory cortices are active in the same way that when you're hearing my voice is going to be active when they're hearing internal voices it's active crazy which is what you would expect maybe a bit that the surprise would be the other way if it was nothing was going on in auditory cortex and they were hearing voices then then that would be more surprising to me that's fascinating you can watch the hallucinations take place inside the mind of the person and you can stimulate hallucinations in people you can stimulate out of body experiences people with with transcranial magnetic stimulation and how do they do that they've been able to do that recently been to try to

give people the same server experience they claimed to have had one like on the operating table Yeah that's what people I have a lot right when they're almost dead yeah what's going on what is that well that is there's an area I believe this is at the temporal parietal Junction which is here wanting to talk into the millions but it's you know where the temporal lobe in the parietal lobes intersect and the

I think it was first discovered in surgery on an epileptic what day is over the Ori in in any kind of resection of the brain where they say people are awake because the pain center in the brain so you can you can stay awake while you're getting brain surgery and they tend to keep you awake if they're going to be removing areas of the brain and unless I have a tumor or focus of an epileptic seizure and they don't want to remove working part especially in a language part so is so they're they're keeping people awake and they're probing those areas of the cortex to see what it's correlated with in the person's experience so maybe so they're having them talk I have them answer questions in there and they're putting a little bit the current in that area which would be disruptive of normal function and you know you you can sue their they're mapping the almost entirely map

language cortex when they do this but there have been no experience experience is where they they a neurosurgeon will will put a little current in in an area near this region of the brain and people will have this out of Body Experience where there in the corner of the room looking down on their bodies were

in a bit the classic an astral projection experience with or the the near-death experience where you two people if I have risen out of their body or seem to run out of their body and then conscious is now to be located elsewhere and that's a dishes that region of the of the brain is

I made it virtually every reason the cortex does many many things there's no there's no one region of the brain that does one thing and there's a couple of exceptions to this but the whole brain is participating in in much of what we do as just greater or lesser degrees of activity but in terms of your map in your body in space this is another put the pride a little bit as got a lot to do with that and when that gets Disturbed you can have weird experience at 2 and have the experience of not recognizing your body or parts of your body you liking it like you don't really like an alien hand syndrome where you like you just left arm seems Seems like another person's arm young people just try to disown half of the body and you can trick people with visual

changes of display like you can you can wear headgear where you can make me feel like it's like it is called the body swapping illusion I can feel like I am located my Consciousness is located in your body looking back at me there's a there's a clever experiment that they did where does the ultimate

extension of what what has long been called it the rubber hand illusion where you can you can put it like my two hands on the table now you can set up an experiment where if you put a rubber hand if you set this up in a way where I am I am assuming I have my two hands here you can you can put a rubber hand in its place and touch the touch the rubber hand with it with a brush right so it's of this I'm seeing the rubber hand get touched with with with with a brush and I can feel like my hand is being touched it looks like it might hand is being touched my hand is elsewhere under-the-table be in touch with a brush at the same time I can feel like my hand is now the rubber hand when I can still get it says it is so that I can feel like my hand it in place of the other rubber hand based on Visual and tactile in of the simultaneity of my seen the rubber hand in touch with Abra

am I feeling my hand which is now under the table in touch with a brush I'm not explaining that setup right but people can look it up but you can do the same thing to a to the ultimate agree with this video goggle display where I'm getting input visual input from where you're standing till I could you come up to shake my hand right I'm seeing you come up to me and shake my hand but I'm seeing it from your point of view right to like I'm getting a visual input from from I Now feel like I'm walking up to me shaking my hand and you can you can just kind of feel like your consciousnesses is out is is over there you know how outside your body and it is just to say that they are our sense of self or sense of being located where we are in our heads is

largely and in some cases almost entirely a matter of vision right it's a matter of its is a fat the fact that you feel you're over there is because you're a mean that's where your eyes are you at your behind her eyes you feel like you're behind your eyes and when you go and tricks of a vision can can seem to dislodge that's that sense of being located there so stimulating one area of the brain electrically has been shown like even just transdermally just need it would guess what do they do they put little what are those things called a little glue on things Electrolux tomatoes and they can from the brain rather than new experiments they've been doing that they were talking about on Radiolab and apparently there's a bunch of do-it-yourselfers that are in but it had this one

so the dealt with people learning certain skills while the outside of their brains being stimulated would like a little electrode and this woman who was one of the reporters went to a sniper training thing they set up the scenario they give you like a fake gun you point the screen you try to hit the target has all these things are happening she did it once he had nine volt Nirvana is the name of the episode it is an outstanding episode so fast anyway she goes to one she's terrible at it she just sucks terribly then they hook her up to this machine they attach this electrode to a certain a certain area of a brain stimulate one area of a brain and she goes through it like a fucking sniper time slows down she gets 20 out of 20 so yeah it is from being a complete failure to being awesome at it and some weird Flow State that she described and they're talking about of the US government's using it at trying to train soldiers and snipers and and people to try to understand this mindset and try to achieve this mindset that there

how to do it in the shirt companies are experimenting with it at least by stimulating the outside of your head was it so I could not know this particular story I remember hearing that title though but the transcranial magnetic stimulation is magnetic energy which is you know that the flip side of electrical energy so if you if you apply a big magnet to the side of your head you are changing you know what the electrical properties of your cortex is that what I'm doing will know I'm wondering if they've just made a transcranial magnetic device so small I bet it's that it's I don't think it's magnetic direct current direct current stimulation transcranial direct-current stimulation yeah that's what it's called a tcd yeah I'm unaware of the specifics of this but if it's been true for a long time that with with with a much bigger device in a lab you can change a person's performance

Go to Pharrell on on various tasks just by band and it's just an electromagnet which is focusing its energy on various areas of the cortex so but yeah because what you're doing I mean you are you are disrupting neural firing but you are you can disrupt areas that are inhibiting other things you want to release so it's it's it's if it can be it's not always synonymous with the degradation of performance me you could you could increase performance on a certain task by taking one region of the brain offline or more less offline

but I'm not you know I'm not aware of how far they taking it terms of doing anything that seems useful in terms of Performing something to me what the research I'm more aware of his just using this to figure out what various regions of the brain are doing a mapping function things you want to see if I disrupt area and area here what how does that show up in an experiment and that gives you some clue as to what that region is doing it in at least in that task as much as we know about the mind and being able to do things like this like the overall he had a really like trying to map out the exact functions of the mind and how everything worked how far do you think we are a long understanding that we halfway to think we understand half of how the brain works

no I'm at wouldn't even know how to quantify it at this point it's just we know

a ton right and we know it's like we know a lot about you and what a languages and we're in a facial recognition is and it was so your your your visual cortex has been really well mapped and we know a lot and envy of the last hundred fifty years based on just neurological injury and and then in the last decades based on imaging technology we know regions of the brain that you know absolutely govern language and regions of the brain that have basically nothing to do with language to take one example and we know a lot about memory and we we know about a lot about that the different kinds of memory but

it's um

there's your I think it was probably this much more we don't know what's even more kind of greatest fiction in the system is like like there's not often a lot to do with what we know right so they like knowing is not enough for certain things not because of you to intervene is another part of the process which where there are no guarantees me that the way we can intervene in the functioning of a brain is incredibly crude in a pharmacologically it was surgery or with the device like that so to get to get from a place of really refined knowledge to a place of being able to do something we want to do with that knowledge that's another step and that's that's a step that is

you know why I thought it was no reason to think that we're not going to take it at some point but it's an additional complexity to get inside the head safely and help people in or improve function even if you know a lot about what you know those areas of the brain do but we don't we don't know we haven't cracked the neural code we don't know we don't know how Consciousness is arising in the brain we wouldn't know how to build a a computer that does what we do to say nothing of experience the world as we experience it yet and and we may be going down pass where

we will build it more by happenstance where is he like we will wake me up my build it and not quite know how it's doing what it's doing it but it's seeming to do even more less what we do I would be doing it very differently Minnesota. There to pass released two distinct paths in artificial intelligent than one path could take it could try to emulate what the brain is doing in that requires a real detailed understanding of what the brain is doing another path would be to just ignore the brain right so that there's no reason why artificially intelligent machines even machines that are superhuman in their capacities need to do anything that is similar to what we do by Eleni with our Branzino neurochemical certainly hope so cuz it's going to be organized differently and don't you know could be organized quite differently and obviously made of totally different stuff

whether you want to go down the path of emulating the brain on the basis of understanding of it or you just want to go down the path of maximizing intelligent behavior in machines or some combination of the two there their they're not necessarily

there are distinct and and one dozen and tail really knowing that much about the brain necessarily so this is really two different ways I can go about it either they could try to reproduce brain yeah maybe we can make fake meat why can't they make fake brain tissue seems like they could mean I know a woman got her bladder replaced with stem cells did you hear about that they took stem cells and recreated her own bladder in a chipped bladder cancer built her a new bladder and a laboratory and put her own your ladder back in her body that is mainly fast and now they can figure out how to distract a little bit of brain tissue thing is the brain is in a famously the most complicated object in the universe up the ladder is essentially a bag and I saw it it's a big leap it's a big lie but it's not

and I think it's a leap we will take and we know whether we take it whether the made maybe a week we take in this stepwise way where we build machines down a path that is not at all analogous to recreating Brands which allow was too then understand the brain totally in the in the Ray Kurzweil science where we we can you know what upload ourselves that makes any sense but it's a

I'm at I think I think

information

processing is at bottom what intelligence is I think that is that is not really up for dispute at this point that any any intelligent system is processing information and our brains are doing that and any machine that is going to exhibit the kind of general intelligence that we exhibit and surpasses will be doing by dint of its hardware and software

something deeply analogous to what our brains are doing but again it made me not we may not get there based on directly emulating what our plans are doing and we may get there before we actually understand understand our brains in a way it would it would allow us to emulate it

it's it's always

very interesting to me how it seems to be there's always pushes and pulls in in life and when you have things that are a cat's horrific as factory farming and people exposed to it then there's his rebound and where people trying to find a solution and I'll always wonder like it will that be the first artificial life that we create like zombie cows like some it if we figured out that leave meat in the lab is not good because it is actually be moving around for it to be good for you meet maybe they'll come up with some idea to just look we're going to make zombies we're going to make livestock that essentially can just move forward and consume food there's no thought whatsoever these are zombies and go right up to him to wave your hand in front of them they don't even move is it okay to kill those and then go from that to making artificial people as it seems to me that artificial people it's going to happen I mean it's just a matter of how much time if they're making bladders and then they going to start making all sorts of different tissues with

themselves to try to replace body parts & organs and they're going to they're going to work their way through an actual human body it's going to have some do you mean you mean a a brainless person that would be like spare parts for for you want for sure that's an option but I think also an artificial human I mean might take a thousand years but I think if we stay alive if human beings rather if human beings continue to evolve technologically within the next thousand years were going to have artificial people that are completely to see me there people so we're going to build up a biological person to person is not if we're not talking about the perfect robot you're talking about an actual person yet I am built up cell by cell

yet you know there's no there's no reason why that's not possible that wasn't what we would do it is is another question but I had it I had to sign would China has presumably there a limit even in China I don't know what they're doing I believe they are I believe they got to go of that dog Festival every year I see people tweet about I'm trying is a big place though can't run Mall in there but you know what is that gene splicing software crispr after using crispr on human fetuses are human embryos so good luck good luck world is creating super athletes there are many issues there but miss when you're talking about changing the genome and especially when you talk about changing the germline the other than that it gets passed on to Future Generations that that has big implications

but you know I don't see why this goes to it's like the artificial meat conversation to to grow meat in a vat is ethically the same thing as a lease in my view it be the same thing as producing a brainless cow right does he have it the whole cow that you could Slaughter but it has no brain so

presumably there's at no experience in this animal but it is the fully-functioning animal rights related let's let's say you could produce that and it would be you would produce healthy meat it's just a mess of your present we have to feed this thing right how you get to eat but you'll be able say feed it intravenously a big all begins to look weirder and weirder but there's no suffering there because there's no brain I think we would and I think we have decided to bypass that vision and just go straight to the vet and you just Build It Up cell by cell and build up only what we need which is the meatball or the steak or that's why I have the fur in the in the organs that you don't want in the mess and be kind of the energy-intensive aspects of producing only animal I think would like spare parts for humans rather than create a clone of yourself that has no brain that you just keep an a in a sum

hernia in your garage where you can get spare kidneys when you need them we would just be able to print the kidneys and that is that they cuz that gets around a lot of the weirdness right to be weird to have a copy of yourself that's just you know just a spare parts whereas it wouldn't be weird or at least in my view it wouldn't be weird at the Fantastic be able to go into a hospital when your kidneys are failing and they just take a cell and print you a new kidney yeah I think that can be expected that's going to I mean if it's possible seems like it's going on at the bladder example you say this is what's happening there it's amazing but I always want extrapolate things to some bizarre place a thousand years now for some reason because I've been since I got it to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History I'm really fuck my mind up about how I think about the past

in this way that I look like a thousand years ago in comparison to today and I you know I try to see my how much different will people be a thousand years from now and probably way more different I mean the fascination that we have with ancient history that we one of the things obviously if we want to know where we came from but also we can kind of see people today doing similar shit if they were allowed to I give everything went horribly wrong people at their base level kind of similar today as they were thousand years from now one of them might be running for president we can talk about that and when I think about the future a thousand years from now with the the way technology is accelerating in the Des the capacity that we have an ability to change things to change the World to Change physical structures to change bodies to dig into the ground and extract resources that what we're getting better and better

changing things and manipulating things extracting power from the Sun and extracting salt from the water that's like all this bizarre change technology that's consistently and constantly going on with people he continues to get better when I think about a thousand years from now an artificial people in like in this concept of being able to read each other's minds and being able to map out imagery and pass it back and forth from mine to mine in like a clear spreadsheet form like what is that movie with Tom Cruise movie Minority Report thank you on the way it's on the way it's going to be incredibly strange to be a person yeah whether we will be people in a thousand years I think you would unless we have done something terrible and knocked herself back a thousand years I think we will decide to change ourselves in that time in ways that will make us a tweet you know they'll be there may be many different species is like henna tattoos you know you have a bunch of tattoos I

non you could take that a lot further if you can just change begin really tingly when everything and bolts in your head and give yourself just fundamentally different genetic abilities right at me like if you could just go you could become a different species if you took it far enough maybe that's what the aliens are maybe that's why they all look the same maybe they figured it out like a little girl look alike otherwise I appreciate each other one one guy's weird looking one guy short one got to get a big nose everybody so confusing him too many people I can hate everybody look exactly the same so the government gets together with all the peoples they're planning to go look for we have a problem with his good-looking things bullshits holding us back lot of people they're stupid they're getting ahead got all look the same blank emotionless and big giant eyes that's it and they all just went in it with a passion for molesting cattle a legend

I think that's people people blame it on the aliens guy in my podcast David Deutsch you heard of them is physicist in Oxford yes I have why ever heard him he wrote it but he gave up at least one Ted Talk and he's written two very good books the first came out about 10 years ago the fabric of reality and the more recent one is the beginning of infinity and extremely smart guy and very nice guy and he he has this thesis which I don't totally agree about the the implications going forward for a eye but the he's convinced me that his basic thesis which is best ending with his his his the role that knowledge plays in our universe or the potential role that it plays and his argument is that

you're any corner of the universe

anyting that is compatible with the laws of physics can be done with the requisite knowledge so that is a his argument about how deep knowledge goes and therefore how valuable it is in the end so is killing off your your notion of building an artificial person and it literally in a Cell by salary of atom by atom

if that is every reason to believe that's compatible with the laws of physics may we exist rights always that we got built by the end of the happenstance of of biology if we have and what he calls a universal Constructor you know the smallest machine that could assemble and the other machine atom-by-atom we could we could build anything antibiotic right and so he has this vision of you could literally go into a an area of deep space that is as close to a vacuum as possible and you know begin sweeping up stray hydrogen atoms and fuse them together and generate heavier elements I mean you could start with nothing but hydrogen right and and bait with the requisite knowledge

if you did build your own little Fusion reactor create heavier elements and based on those elements create the smallest machine that can then assemble anything else atom-by-atom including more of itself right and you could start this process of building anything from a a person to in of the something far more advanced than a person to a planet is made of atoms write any organized it and and and so the the limiting factor it in the in that case is always the knowledge right to eat it the limiting factors either the laws of physics either this can't be done because it's physically impossible or

the knowledge is what you're lacking and giving a human beings are physically impossible there should be some knowledge path whereby you could assemble one atom by atom right there snow is no reason why it so deep physical reason why that wouldn't be the case that the reason is it's we don't have to do it right but presumably it would be possible that for us to to acquire that knowledge into the club The Horizon of of knowledge is just extends Without Limits we were nowhere near the place where we know everything that's doable as a witness by the fact that we don't yet know how to build a a human atom-by-atom but when you imagine just that the changes that could could occur in our world with with the frontiers of knowledge explored you know

10000 years Beyond where we are now and we will be we will be unrecognizable to ourselves everything would be equivalent to Magic you know if we could see it now and and most of human history is not like that and most of human history who dropped into any. Of human history it was for all intents and purposes identical to the way it was 500 years before and 500 years before that it's only very recently where you would drop in and be surprised by the technology and by the culture and by the the the what is being done with language and the consequences of of cooperation among types like ourselves and so I think that this is one place where it is someone I Kurzweil makes a lot of sense this is this is clearly accelerating right if we end if we don't do something catastrophic to set us back this acceleration is

is the implication is that the future is going to be far less recognizable than it has been in any other. Of human history the idea of creating a little machine that you could shoot down into the universe and build you a planet basis for our biosphere and everything we care about but the other planet is not what's complicated it's the pits on the planet and they are on brains being the ultimate example of of that complexity but presumably intelligent systems can become much more

complex than that right there's no reason to think that we are near the summit of possible intelligence biological or otherwise and

yeah it's say what I want you want to begin thinking about building things atom-by-atom then and it will the future begins to look very weird because it's it's a 10-win automating that process right where you have and it says this is the promise of nanotechnology where you have to do something tiny machines that can can both build more of themselves and more of anything else that would be made of of tiny machines or assemble anything atom-by-atom or treat your own body like a the machine that it is and deal with it Adam by Adam I mean absolutely the possibilities of intervention in the human body are are then virtually Limitless so it's a

yeah man that's that's where we that's where the physical world begins to look just totally fungible want to know when you're not talking about surgery you're cutting into someone's head and hoping interview in very coarse waves hoping you're not taking out areas of brain that they need but you're talkin about actually repairing if your if you can you can Tinker with atoms in a way that you understand do then you're talkin about repairing anyting then then creating anything like literally dr. Manhattan style build ice condos on Mars when you could create art with it you could do anything with it it would just somehow or another have to be programmed with whatever pattern you were trying to create you could essentially like make an Earth where else with all the biological diversity water even intelligent life doll could be done through some sort of a machine ultimately one day it is

again just the information is the knowledge of How It's organized and how to implement it so it's like it's analogous to what has happened in films now where you like a animation and film has gotten good suddenly right where you can see it like like they can animate waving hair and and and flowing water and it looks pretty damn good if it looked terrible 30 years ago right and we just activated to it looking terrible but now it you can you can really trick Lehigh you can build up scenes of nature where they're not actually using any net photography of nature to build it up it's just it's all a confection of of ones and zeroes right there just they just built it in in software like the Revenant perfume example that giant bear that attacked me in Arabic

costume that acted it out with them but essentially it was just all CGR yeah that's just extra cell surface that doesn't have no application for the you're building a rendering of a bear on film is not the same thing as building a bear but the fact that we can move so far into building model in that kind of complexity visually you know you just imagine what a super intelligent mind could do with a thousand years to to work at it and that's and that's we are on the cusp of and mice a cusp you know I don't mean five years but let's say a century we're on the cusp of a producing the kind of technology that would allow for that if we put it into perspective photography I don't believe was even invented until the early 1800s

when it was first founded

1860s 5 1065 so somewhere after that or somewhere before that are there they invented photography so essentially give or take ten years 200 years ago that's really amazing if you stop and think about the Revenant of them two hundred years ago. I thought right there just actually just freaked me out with the 200-year thought I felt a little 200 years is in the Mongol days and I'll 200 years ago they didn't even have cameras and now they do and now they have this insane ability to recreate things like Game of Thrones wolves and dragons and she's right around and dragon I'm like it how it looks like she's on a dragon doesn't look like old school King Kong movies you know you ever try to watch those are awesome to it to get into for fun but as far as I

visual effects what they can do now and the idea that it's all been done over 200 years is just spectacular not just capturing the image but then we creating an artificial version projecting it which is you know a thousand times more difficult and is it but there's other feature here of the compounding power of knowledge and Technology there's certain games that are truly incremental where it's just everything is hard one everything is just 1% better than its predecessor but then there are other games that where it's just that you have created an ability that takes you seems like I kind of Quantum Leap Beyond where you were and where you go from just fundamentally not being able to do anything in that domain and then also the domain opens up totally so something like flight is an example of Rights over for the longest time

people couldn't fly and it was obvious that you can't fly or unit you're heavier than air and you're not you don't have feathers and you're not is no way to Flap your arms fast enough we're never going to fly right and then then at a certain point flight as possible and opens this whole domain of innovation about the difference between not being able to flip there's no there's no progress you can make on the ground that doesn't doesn't

Avail itself of the the principles of flight as we now know them that's going to get you closer you know you can't jump a little bit higher and this is not until there is no matter what you do with your shoes so

are there are there a fundamental games that open up in a home DNA sequencing is a more recent example where understanding and having access to the genome

and that's if you go from the only way to influence your descendants is to basically make a good choice in wife right or husband to you can just create a new species in a test tube if you wanted to write in that and that's a that kind of compounding Power of Love

understanding the way things work that's I think we're at the beginning of a process that could look very very strange very quickly and I know I think you're obviously both in good and bad ways but this I don't think there's any brake to pull on this train I might even knowledge and and intelligence are the most valuable things we have right to work on it we're going to grab more insofar as we possibly can as quickly as we can and the moments of us deciding not to know things and not to learn how to do things even though they are so few and far between is to be almost impossible to reference right and they're there their moments where people try to pull the brakes and say that is a baby hold a conference I said you should we be doing any of this but then you know China does it work or threatens to do it and we want to find some way to do it

but you know that was that we consider ethical so their things like no germline tinkering that we as far as I know don't do and I'm decided for good reason we're not doing but

is that going to stop people from from doing this is how I don't think there's any way they're more worried about actual real diseases than they are man-made diseases when we went to the CDC Caesar Disease Control CDC CDC in Galveston I guess that's what it is what's the name of the organization but it's a building with a house some of the most horrendous viruses and diseases known to man like they had Anthrax in there and it was crazy walls like thick thick walls and Vacuums in the ceilings and everyone's wearing suits and they want us getting to Suits now and fuck you there's no way I'm going in that room you did this for one of your shows or has four TV show with the Duncan Trussell the questions everything show the ropes were talking about weaponized diseases and the CDC was like forget all that like the real diseases that are constantly more thing we have to stay on top of like that's what we should return

cancel real disease and no one showing any ability to create the stuff that's more fucked up them already have but weaponized Anthrax and things along those lines like these Russian guys we talked to they were talking about how they had Advanced of this stuff they had all kinds of crazy diseases they had created just in case we had gotten into some insane mutually assured destruction you know disease spreading thing like they were down for that they were like well we have to be prepared in case the United States. That but but their concern is a Center for Disease control's guys that they were concerned with things like Ebola things morphing things becoming Airborne Natural Things new strains of the flu that become impossible mursa mursa is a terrifying one versus one that has a lot of people scared a lot of doctors care near us to medication resistant staph infection that's kills people and maybe you can absolutely kill people

don't jump on a quick and take the most potent antibiotics we haven't even then it takes a long time yeah well it's a I'm I actually just tweeted this recently said it would some billionaire with some a 0.1 percenter I've developed a new antibiotics because clearly the government in the market can't figure out how to do it and they said really it is falling through the cracks in the government's Market Peridot motorcycle either the government will do whatever the market will do it but neither are doing it because if the market can't still can't generate the

rationale for developing antibiotics because it's so costly and you take them Mia what you take it with any luck you take them we are once every 10 years or ten days and and that's it and it's not like Viagra are any of the Latino antidepressant or any drug that you're going to take regularly for the rest of your life and so there's no real marketing Center of to do it and at least not enough of one to spend a billion dollars developing an antibiotic and the government apparently is not doing it and we're running out of antibiotics and has been in the news a lot recently that we would have but we're close to being in a world where it's as though we don't have antibiotics or where were a superbug away from from being in that world and then I freaked me out Sam Harris I don't like it freaked out now so yeah superbugs are the big concern right

my friend already had it and we're playing pool and he was limping and I can what's going on with your leg man because I got a spider bite I going to say it was at this Pandora song you got staff you got to go to the doctor and he hasn't even done Jiu-Jitsu and years and I think he got staff again and I think it's one of those things were once you I guess everyone has it on their body and when you get an infection then it spreads and grows and apparently it can be a reoccurring thing so people who get it particularly MRSA apparently they can get it again and it can it can get pretty bad that one fighter who just died I don't think relate to that but he had these Kevin Randleman random yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah he was in the hospital was it was staff I don't know if it was more so you could have been just staff that he ignored not a long. Of time it is a hundred percent staff and he died

don't know what exactly was the cause of his death but I can't think that help too many I mean he it is it gotten so bad that it eaten through his body if you review your innocent as for people on wanted to listen Google Kevin Randleman staph infection and these are horrific photo of it look like like something took a bite out of him like his under his armpit I mean I'm like a fist-sized chunk of meat was missing yeah it's really really scary stuff so yeah skin infection there it is right there to take a good look deep in and see his muscle tissue that is Hardcore no exaggeration to like a baseball sized hole and he's got two of them is there another one lower down on his back which is eating its way through his body but I was I was a years before he died right or so some of yours yeah I was years before he died but who knows like how devastating that might have been like that's a really really bad infection

and I think that went your body that compromised to me you're like really close to that means he was really tough strong healthy guy is a super athlete I'm assuming his body probably thought it off pretty well so it's probably one of the reasons why you let it go so long probably didn't maybe didn't even understand like how dangerous it was or who knows maybe just jumped on him really quick my dad's girlfriend just got it on her face and she was in the hospital for two weeks and they were afraid I was going to spread to her brain and almost did and she's not 100% out of the woods yet but she's back home now that's on her face and it spread into her cheek and then into heard from her cheeks just got a little red swelling and then she couldn't see and she had to go to the hospital if you got staff

yeah that's it I quit this is one area that this this worries me That We're Men are the bad things we do and obviously that's what is a lot to be worried about the area of the stupid Wars and the and the things that it's just obvious that you know if we could stop creating needless pain for a cell to Needles conflict in that would lead to a much nicer life but then are they good things we neglect to do based on the fact that we just can't we don't have a system where the incentives are aligned to just make it easy or truly compelling to do them and that idea that we are not producing the next generation of antibiotics as quickly as possible it's just Unthinkable to me and yet idiot we simply were just hamstrung by the fact that we have a political and economic system

that is where they this is there's no incentive I think the governor we don't want to raise taxes right we don't wish it was so over committed in the ways we spend money public money and we're so short-sighted that we even if we suddenly saved money in one area is not like we would immediately directed to this life-saving necessary work right and the market can't get on top of this so it's it really what it would be like you know something that you know the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation could do and maybe it maybe actually doing this I just don't know about it a lot of medical work obviously but they were talking about some billions of dollars to just get this week at the account have a laser focus on on this problem but it's such an obvious problem that's really the only thing that's holding it back that's what's going on it's not a research issue it's just a financial issue well I'm sure

research has to be done because it's you know if it was if it was totally obvious how to build the Next Generation antibiotics that would not be vulnerable to having their efficacy cancelled in an in 3 years by me and just just the natural selection among the microbes you know that someone would do it very very cheaply but so I'm admitted it it's probably not easy to do but it's got to be doable and it's super important to do and we look at just cesspools Hospital's it become where people come at you something like

200000 people a year die in the US based on essentially getting killed by the Machinery of the hospital right there getting killed by their doctors and nurse most up some of this is is in a drug overdoses or or or incompetence in Endo Center giving some of the wrong medication whatever are you in 200,000 people a year but a lot of it is just not washing their hands right but some of this is also super bugs where it's like it's it's the bird not had Washington Hospital is higher and higher because hospitals just

just covered in in super terms right now so it's a psycho Haunted House people and around the house or bunch of demons are trying to kill people you're trying to fix mean that it's obviously it's not but if you were a person who was inclined to believe things like back in the day before they figured out microscopes me what else is that other than a demon you got a hospital that's filled with superbugs where else are they there's nowhere else just not just like a haunted house Circle haunted house is trying to kill the people that live in the house and it is

well and sausage is ironic they knew you go to the hospital to save your life right here you go when you are by definition your most vulnerable and you are and you're in your lane your body open to the intrusions of the place because that means they have to get they have to get into your body to help you write and yet that is the very mechanism why you're worried about your getting all this misery and death imposed on you and it is as simple as hand-washing no limit in this case it is just the doctors and nurses not washing their hands that is insane so insane to think that that is a gigantic issue that we have these bugs that try to get into your body and kill you is what it says wondering if you ever had the bad luck to be associated with a NICU in a new neonatal ICU but our first daughter who's totally fine was born the five

Surly and had to be in the NICU for a week and they're people who are in the NICU for in a month so you know they're pit bull babies born at 23 weeks or so and it's just it's totally I'm heroin but but also just the end is incredibly compassionate just amazing places where you just doctors and nurses are our total Heroes but that space where you see the hand washing protocol just exactly as it needs to be another people are they just have have understood you'll find that this if you're going to go into the NICU and see your baby or be around anyone else's baby you are going to wash your hands in and it is complete away is as 24 Century science understand how to do that and it's it is it's almost like the decontamination zone of silkwood where are the nuclear reactor

I was down but it's yeah it's m a hand-washing is the fact we can't even do that perfectly is pretty impressive

now is it a fact that Marissa was created by medications or is that a belief or is that been proven that it was created by a resistance to medications and get stronger yeah yes it's it's a fact that all of these bugs are evolving and just by dint of happenstance they are producing changes in their genome that leaves them no longer vulnerable to antibiotic x-rite so whether it's methicillin or any of its related antibiotics and so that this is what antibiotic resistance is he these bacterial genomes mutate and unfortunately with bacteria they also can swap genes that laterally across bacterial species so it's not like

only their descendants in that line can inherit these genetic changes they can they can transfer genetic changes across bacteria so it just it optimizes the process and against all blind sound like bacteria want to become drug-resistant but some percentage of them in any generation will tend to become in some generation will become drug-resistant and then that then then in the presence of the drug they will be selected for you know if you keep them barding people would penicillin you will be selecting for the bacteria that isn't sensitive to penicillin in those people and say the overuse of antibiotics in the overuse of antibiotics in our food chain is is also part of this picture right so it's the fact that we are

I don't know what the percentage is but it's it's more antibiotic you certainly in cattle and pigs than in people and the same

evolutionary principles are happening there too so it is how you know you don't know what what

we're doing to ourselves and we can't be good to be using antibiotics everywhere in agriculture and then waiting to see what happens but we know for a fact that we get diseases mean swine flu Asian flu-like viruses have a lot of these are coming out of these facilities were there processing cattle eggs another element to its most of infectious disease over the ages

has been born of proximity to animals with and that's the result of the Agricultural so the fact that you have people in bird markets in China who do you know they're they're dealing with with chickens and Ducks endlessly in confinement and then you've got me to wild birds flying overhead drop in their droppings into that space and you have uterus and you have viruses that jump species from from birds to pigs and back again and you're some of the stuff only stays in those animals and then doesn't become active and people but again it's just it's just like his evolutions just as analyst Lottery Wheel Works is that you just got to change and change and change upon change and something

makes the jump in this case between species and thrives or not based on the opportunities to thrive so you have something that becomes airborne right now but you have a a a virus that is absolutely deadly in people but

isn't airborne and it's difficult to contract right well then it's a it's a fairly well-behaved and it's it could be scary but it's not going to become a global pandemic but then it suddenly you could get a mutation on that virus or bacteria that allows it to be an aspirated in a Airborne the cough and inhaled and and spread that way we'll then you have this this we know the possibility of a pandemic and also the time course of an illness is is irrelevant so you hope you have something which kills you very quickly and horribly well then that's that's the kind of thing that he is going to be harder to spread because people become suddenly so sick they don't they're not getting on airplanes they're not even going to conferences are not starting new relationships there they're in bed dying right so but if you had something that had a time-course that you felt great for a month

but yet you're infectious and then it kills you will then then it spread is only limited by the the damage you can do in that month of gallivanting around right you know so it's a and again these mutations are just happening spontaneously so it is it's a really is a it's a matter of good and bad luck

and they all have one function what kill things they were they overcome they overcome bodies with their life form they spread their they have met their other functions me obviously this is all blind and there's no intention or purpose behind it but there are viruses

and other infectious diseases that have produce penicillin produce functions which which are behaviorally relevant made it so that there's a spread forgotten the toxoplasmosis that makes

mice less fearful in the presence of cats yeah like say their behavioral changes attracted to urine right they got a wrecked cat urine so songs into their demise so it spreads to cats and their Theses that are very infectious diseases that change human behavior the depression the result of infectious illness that we're not you know where of Orem

yeah my total is a lot that could be going wrong with us that we haven't attributed to viruses and bacteria which in fact are is at bottom a matter of viruses and I can actually Alzheimer's is but that was recently a report that suggested that Alzheimer's is the result of a brains immune response to infection infectious illness I think it was bacterial this is just for you in the last week or so that the

the plaques associated with Alzheimer's that you see throughout the brain might in fact be the the remnants of an immune response to something something having invaded that cross the blood-brain barrier Sophia is Alzheimer's is the result of infectious disease and then that that is a score that is a major problem that would be nice to solve with the right some antibiotic regime could you imagine if that existed during Reagan's time if he just clear him up

cuz remember when it was like when when someone publicly starts to go like that and it's a guy like Ronald Reagan who is an actor and president and you see him starting to lose his grip on his memory you don't need to hear all the reports about it

that didn't seem particularly disturbing because it's exhibited it means that's the head guy you know to think that that was just a disease that's crazy I don't remember when that became at all obvious I remember I know people were trying to do a kind of a retrospective analysis of it but I don't remember when anyone started to talk about the possibility that he

was not all there a 10-day I don't remember it happening actually during his presidency but I don't know who I was you were both young at that point so I do remember comedians doing jokes about it yeah that's like one of my main points of reference at to be a real they did have this like weird sort of out of it Grandpa type character that they would do right towards his second run you know

right I don't know if that was years before they were referencing like when when was it all going bad for him I mean the real adjuster neurological illness really well I mean I can make and they are walking around seeing neurological illness all over the place I'm sure they're there were neurologist who were talking about him long before anyone else was in those terms was it was an old joke that Jimmy tingle did Jimmy tingle is hilarious political comedian from Boston had this joke about Ronald Reagan's trial where I couldn't remember if you sold arms to Iran was mr. president next time you sell arms to Iran jot it down make a note put it on the refrigerator but it was just weird that that was his that was his excuse when he was in trial and everybody thought that this is bullshit this is too fancy doesn't remember

and then it started coming out that he had none of the conspiracy theory was he was always fine he was like was that guy's name Vincent the chin Gigante would walk around a bathroom pretend to be crazy remember that kind of mob guy there's a famous mob guy who was running the mob I pretended to be a crazy old man so he would walk around with people I forget how they busted him but he had it nailed he walk around a bathrobe and talked himself you put on an act so I can go down the street and act like a crazy person and then he would go on walks with like these Capo's and tell him to kill this fucking guy and get me a million bucks and all that kind of crazy but all the while he can wear a wire somehow or another they caught him I don't remember exactly how they caught him but everyone knew like the kind of knew he was doing that and so some people think that's where Reagan was doing it was getting somewhere. I don't remember what I did when I ran matter fact that I remember shit I can't remember anything and just started pretending it was out of both could be true, he could have been only clearly didn't have Alzheimer's in the end

we could have also been lying and I didn't hear what it was a big conspiracy they'll be a great movie like how good of an actor was Ronald Reagan who is such a good actor into the latter days was years you avoided interviews by pretending to have Alzheimer's you feel like that was the only way out so he just him and Nancy they've been prepped or lines and when when you know and go out there in the public you just start acting like you couldn't remember everything is going to be a bigger and bigger story is really in the baby boomer moment is to come in and it's just going to this is something we need a full court press on to yeah if you can find that that's actually a disease and you can cure that disease that isn't seen the sapolsky stuff on the Toxoplasma

Robert sapolsky he's the guy that's like one of them for Forefront researchers in the one I got is like really work vocal about her ass and yeah they were also talking about direct proportionate a direct relationship between motorcycle crashes and people testing positive for toxoplasmosis might have hindered reaction time or loosened inhibitions the same way it's what are triggers he's mice to go near cats yeah yeah yeah so is it is I think it's a lot of speculation but there's a lot of strong court is a strong correlation apparently to motorcycle crashes and that is why I guess one of his professors at told him that when he was younger and he remembered it while they were dealing with some guy who came into the ER victim of motorcycle crash be kind of makes sense

yeah well you know the underlined biology of risk avoidance and and not risk-seeking is that's fairly well conserved in mammals is not liking this is a reason why we do most of our research in things like Mice and Men that it is is not a totally analogous sprain but it's a very much are similar enough to us that doing research on dopamine receptors in mice is allows us to extrapolate to a human's and yeah so it's a

I thought it wouldn't be surprised that it's it's having an effect on people was it Steve remember I was supposed to bring this up to you before when you were talking about plants and plants having some sort of Consciousness was it Steven Pinker see if you can find this who gave a speech where he talked about how some plants you can actually use sedatives on them and that some of them actually produced certain neurochemicals like dopamine that makes any sense that Steven Pinker not didn't make any sense right why would surprise me if pink or said anything about this but I haven't heard anything about it I think it was a speech was given about something but I think it's controversial it's one of the reasons why I wanted to bring it up to you because I'd never heard that before that a plant could produce

is he there dopamine or serotonin in that somehow another sedatives would be

wood would be effective on a plant I thought I didn't make any sense I don't know what effective means I don't know yet that's why I waited for you as far as I'm concerned I remember as soon as I saw it seemed like he must get this to Sam Harris please decipher what I'm actually everything I've almost everything I remember about or that I learned about plant biology I've forgotten so I don't know but I'm pretty sure that does not have a brain specifically coming up with that maybe it was too. Maybe I can come what's up combine two different articles maybe I did the painter one I know it was her say about plants and Consciousness just talk to you about the surprising amount of calculations that was one of the to read the entire piece but I think it was just the Rees highlighting what we know so far I've reached the limits of a human bladder

The Surly you to Healthy Man coffee and water so what have you found on a Jamie earlier that was kinda interesting I'll show to hear when you talk about AI I pull up some of Minority Report and it pulled me to this article which Microsoft has an app that can attack to develop by Itachi it's called predictive crime and analytics they can predict crimes up to 91% accuracy and there sits also already being enacted in Maryland and Pennsylvania as of 2013 they have crime prediction software that can find out if an inmate that's going to be released as going to predict or commit another crime and still using that to follow them and there's some civil rights people that are saying like you can't do that obviously that's not good scroll down just a little bit what is it if Professor Burke says

algorithm could be used to help set bail amounts and also decide sentences in the future and then I got down to this part in Chicago they're doing something and they haven't called a heat list in Chicago their foreign residents that are listed as potential victims and subjects with the greatest propensity of violence and they go and knock on her door and tell them that they're being watched and I would like I've clicked on this day and it's an actual like Chicago directive from the police. Org it's a pilot program about going to tell people that are being washed for someone might be after you or some shit like that it's really crazy 91 interrupt you guys to tell you about this but custom notification under the violence reduction initiative in partnership with a John Jay College of Criminal Justice Community team will serve as Outreach Partners when the social service and Community party show him this this is crazy while it while we were doing this Microsoft has this

these programs scroll to the top 10

they were revealed an application they think that can predict crimes in the future and decide if inmates get parole camera feeds public Wi-Fi signals there's like an LA there's all sorts of microphones all over the place listing for gunshots and whatnot cuz this new light poles I told you about that are adding 4G connectivity to the city obviously can be added to this probably if they needed it I'm sure yeah that doesn't surprise me at all

all that's coming we were just look at just consumer behavior and just just look at how much someone can understand about you based on your zip code and your last 3 Netflix movies you watch to the end and it just a few other data points right and then we basically know we can predict it was with some horrendous accuracy what's you're going to like a gay given you know the menu of options me we can advertise to you with a with immense Precision my Facebook obviously is is at the Forefront of this but when you talk about

when you add everything else that's coming even more more intrusive technology that's what we've been talking about it's you know it

none of that surprising right nothing surprises me anymore if you would read that 30 years ago it would have looked like an article in the Union right even like going to have this is Judge Dredd this is crazy so here's the onion version which you did just happen right I think it was Microsoft where they put out a what they were calling and AI bots on Twitter account that just became a hitler-loving sex spot because it was being tuned up by its interaction with people trolling on Twitter did you see the guy who got arrested for falling asleep inside of Tesla one of us on Auto Drive no no no no I don't know if you got arrested he got busted though they have cameras of camera photos of him rolling through an intersection completely unconscious on his way to work up in the sky

the car is driving him and he's asleep while it's on autopilot this is insanity asking to be a great moment to see and I'm sure this is coming where

I want self-driving cars become obviously the only truly safe alternative then you'll be arrested for the opposite violation you'll be you'll be arrested with your hands on the wheel if your if you are driving a car that is that in as partners 8th piloted as opposed to robot driven and that's that say I'm at 30,000 people a year dying every year just on a pipe driving so the moment we crack that which were very close to doing it's just going to same area me you've got your old muscle cars or whatever you're into it's going to be like if that's going to be the equivalent of like in a celebratory gunfire when I get home you're going to reserve the right to like at 2 at your wedding and there's a shoot shoot your AR-15 is the air and not care where the bullet lands have enough to get a license to operate them that you're going to have to move out of the big city where

take them to the hills and unload them out of the back of a truck driver very short distance that's right now I monitor how much an hour

yeah I mean if you look at in terms of safety for sure and then it seems to be the thing that's the recurring theme right you give up your privacy for safety you get you give up your your ability to drive a car wherever you want whenever you want however you want give that up to give that up for safety

random people really reluctant to give up fun shit like line and driving their car fast those two things people can have a hard time with you like actually getting into the into their mind seeing their actual mind and being able to do that so we can know without a doubt whether or not someone is guilty or innocent my question to you is if you could get inside someone's mind and it was like that really super suggestive guy they were talking about earlier that just confessed all the horrific demonic possession stuff and eating babies what if it's like getting some to that guy's mind what you can't tell

well

happy that that the case that that worries me and is perhaps an in-depth Segway to politics but the

where in people's minds about what you get you get someone talking long enough you know their minds maybe they can only concealed what they're about I only so well right now you can cuz you're a super smart wizard typed but Jamie I don't know about I don't know if he's a mind reader but what will people care you know it's like I like if you if you have we don't even need a lie detector to have someone who's openly lying right right who took who just gets caught in lies again and again you can see it to you feel it right but people don't seem to care right in the end of the lesson in a political process we are thinking in this case of trump where you have someone who

it is and in some cases lying or just changing his mind in such an incoherent way that it's a functional equivalent of line message to someone who becomes totally unpredictable he has a stance that is a on Tuesday and it's be on Wednesday and when the discrepancy is pointed out he tells you to go fuck yourself right so it's just it's just know that there is no accountability to his his own States Of Consciousness they might he's going to be held to and the people who love him don't seem to care that actually as far as I can tell I don't know so many people personally but it is from based on your social media and seen the few articles where someone has to explain why they love Trump people view this as a kind of this sort of

this dishonesty what is on in my view both dishonesty and a kind of a kind of theatrical hucksterism unsatisfied person who's who's pretending to be many things that he probably isn't they see it as a new kind of authenticity right back to this guy he's just letting it rip he doesn't care what it what is true he doesn't care what your expectations for the coherence Arc he's just going to tell you to fuck yourself every which way and this is the new way of being honest right is the new form of Integrity it's amazing to watch it's getting it weighs been I'm someone who actually I remember on my own podcast eye

I was talking to Paul Bloom this is he a psychologist whose is whose great and we had talked we got into politics since it's at least a year ago but at that point I said there's no way we're going to be talking about Trump in a year and this is completely flame out and I was this is a I don't tend to make predictions but this was a clear moment that I remember making a prediction which is now obviously false but I just couldn't imagine that this was this what people were going to find this compelling enough to further for him to be on the on a Costco getting elected its

it is terrifying have you talked to talk this issue to death on your podcast review guess we kind of have I think this is how everybody feels everybody feels like you're supposed to be like with their person whether it's Bernie or whether it's for Hillary or whether you're a trump supporter whatever it is like you have to be all but like if you look at the the choices that were given the none of these could really be described as I know not like Hillary Clinton you could want a woman in the white house if you want to you want to show everyone that a woman can do that job just as well as a man she's got the most experience and she certainly has the most experience dealing with foreign governments she certainly has the most experience in politics can make it easier but to criminal investigation she had a server in her bathroom and where we stop going on so she said she's terrible in many ways she was in a marriage

Titian probably brilliant woman but she's also set in her ways and a politician politician to the end and part of being a politician is being a fucking huckster you got to be able to get those people to see your side and the way you do that is to talk like this without any kicks their asses she has a shrill voice when you get her in front of a mic and there's a crowd and she thinks she's talking over the crowd which she doesn't have to do cuz she's in front of a Mike the sound you get is just it's it is she's yelling when she doesn't need to yell at someone someone has to teach her how to dial it back what you just did is called mansplaining

talk some sense into her but she thought she is she's a bad she's a bad candidate right I have no doubt that she's very smart and she's well informed and she's qualified and she is absolutely who I will vote for given the choices but you know I totally understand people's reservations with her if she's a liar she's an opportunist she's just almost preternaturally inauthentic I mean she's just like she will just focus group every third sentence can you feel that from her right and and this is all true and yet I also believe the people who say I've never met her but few people who know her and I met her say that you're behind closed doors in a one-on-one she's incredibly impressive and and great but that doesn't translate into her candidacy she think she has to do with old school you know I mean the way she's doing it but when you look at the what's what worries me is how I went on Facebook the other day

and I have said very little about this but I've made enough noise is of the sort that I just made the people understand that I that I'm in for Clinton despite all my reservations about her and

when I got on my own Facebook page what you have to assume is filtered by the people who are following me on Facebook and and or do you like me and sometimes just like a thousand comments of pure pain I mean no one loves Hillary no one no one said oh thank God someone someone smartest for Hillary it was all just Bernie people and Trump people blaming me for 4 for the the most tepid possible endorsement of Clinton all I said was listen I understand you know Clinton a liar and cheese and she's an opportunist and she's completely get your reservations about her but at least she's a grown up right and she's going to be the candidate is not going to be Sanders but it was the moment now is the moment to put your political idealism behind you if your Sanders person and recognize that there is a vast difference between Clinton and Trump and knows no she's not going to change the system but he's also not going to run civilization off a cliff and

I got into our forget how I set it on Facebook but it was just the most it was just a really really was a lesser of two evils argument and it just it was amazing to see how energized and passion people are in defense of trump and Sanders and there's almost none of that for Clinton it's like a people are just sheepishly saying that they just divulging that they will vote for Clinton but they are and maybe somewhere and I have noticed someone absolutely loves Clinton but it's just it's she does not have her Defenders the way these guys do have you seen the man enough to vote for her campaign it's with like hipster dudes with tattoos and beards are going to vote for Hillary know I hope it's fake cuz it's so brilliant I hope it's not real is it fake is it

thank God it's so good though cuz it's not that fake it's pretty good like you could almost see this is not bad for her right this is no no no it's not bad for it is funny it's someone would like I make a joke political ad running know that you have to be man enough to vote for Hillary and like those guys out there that would buy that they would do it do it do it

it's a scary time because it doesn't seem like anybody that you would want to be president wants to be president and so we're left with all right what do you pick it's like as if we're going to play the Super Bowl with three the shittiest teams we can find we're just going to go get some drunk high school kids but get some inmates with club feet which control over it we going to have the worst game ever and that's what this game is not a good game this is not a game where you've got like a John F Kennedy versus a Lyndon Johnson or it's not it's not like like powerful characters it's Trump I guess it's a really powerful character in more ways like a showman character you know everyone is like he's putting on a great show and he's going to win probably because he's putting on such a great show and people like a great show

I think I'm now of among the people who think something new Whitney something we're witnessing something new with Trump it's not just the same old thing where the process is so onerous that it's selecting for the kind of narcissist or if you have thick skin person who is willing to submit to the process and then there are many good people just aren't going to put up with this I mean yes it does that too but

there's there's something there's a it's a moment among the electorate where is latest I can type stablish mint mood and and vote now is it happening with it was Sanders to where people just want to jam a stick in the wheel of a system just to see what happens just like where this is the main gripe against Hillary really is that she's Politics as Usual he's not going to change the system right people want to change the system but they're not really thinking about the implications of radically changing the system and in the case of trump

I made here is someone who is who is advertising his lack of qualifications for the office in every way that he can like it like there's no I'm I'm not even but I'm not even bothered by his racism or his misogyny or his demagoguery or is bulimic all of that I'm willing to to guess is an act right that he's he's decided that some help and ruined his base and he's actually in truth he doesn't have a racist bone in his body say I'm willing to it it to believe that and I don't know why I would think that's possible but it's it's it's a you know I have a hunch that he's far more liberal than he seems and it's just pandering but the thing that that

can't be true is there's no way he's actually brilliant and well-informed about all the issues and is saying the things he's saying he's not pretending to be as uninformed and is incoherent and as irresponsible as he's saving cuz you wouldn't withhold information vacuousness of his speech is like he's he'll say that he'll say the same thing three times in a row and it was meaningless the first time right he'll say it's going to be amazing it's going to be very very amazing trust me it's going to be so amazing and he does he does this with everything if you look at the transcripts of his speeches and the fact that he can't

he has never made so far as I've seen he has never once strung together a string of sentences that was

even interesting right but he be like that he's never he just there's never a moment where I wrecked or Sao this guy is smarter and better informed than I realized at that moment never comes I keep expecting to see that happen and it's a little bit like may I have this image of idiot like you imagined even earn right where you are and you just need to keep pulling things out of it and all you pull out of it is junk right now you pull up me a chicken bones and broken Marbles and dumb and and it's it's still possible that you that if you root around in that around long enough you're going to find the Hope Diamond million each round that you pull something out that really has no logical implication for the next thing you might pull out of it the urn but mine's aren't like that when I see what this guy says he does not say anything that a well-informed intelligent person would say and it's just an ideas or are connected right so you can't

did you see you can't fake this stuff you can't you can't fake being this this uninformed and you can't fake being really well-informed and he's just movie Just One policy that he wants it in the

in the rounding up of illegal aliens right around up 11 million illegal aliens this gets stated as you were going to run around them up and send them back to Mexico and what word means no one seems to care about that if you just look at the implications of doing this it is this one policy claim a loan is so impractical and unethical just what what what are we talking about every time you eat like your your Gardener your housekeeper the person who works at the carwash the person who picks the vegetables so that you buy in the market is going to get a knock on the door in the middle of the night by the gestapo and get sent back to the vast majority of these people are our law-abiding people are just working two jobs at that Americans buy large don't want to do and many of them have kids who are American citizens right so maybe it's almost got two kids under the age of 10 or American citizens and what you're going to send that person back to Mexico

are you going to do this by the hundreds of thousands and millions it's just that one point alone held in isolation from all of the other things he said the crazy thing by climate change is a hoax be concocted by the Chinese to destroy manufacturing base and the fact that he likes Putin Emmett everything else he said right this one alone should be enough to disqualify a person candidacy it's so crazy with the moment you you look at it and yet no one seems to care in fact it's just it's just more energized into the people who already liked it I know they said they wanted to build a wall but I didn't know that somebody wanted to get rid of the illegal aliens round and round them up with them to their calls I'm so crazy that such a crazy idea and it's so brutal the idea that I mean it's like a it's a subhuman thing that the only reason why people would come to America s because they felt they felt like it would make

life better so people take a big risk it's not it's not an easy way to do it if you're poor and you don't have any qualifications for any unusual job and mean and you're trying to get across to Mexico but everybody what does it does because they want to improve your life you know when the idea that one group of people shouldn't be able to do it in one group should just cuz you were born in the right side of some strange line that is only a couple hundred years old but I cannot go further in meeting him in the Middle where they sell it so I think we should be able to defend our borders right so it is I don't have a good argument for having a porous border that we can't figure out how to defend and we don't know who's coming into the country right to it so I think building a wall is almost certainly a stupid idea among his many stupid ideas but I think it would be great to know who's coming in the country and have a purely legal process by which that happened ultimately that's got to be the goal right right and we are imperfectly

doing that and so I don't have an argument for open Borders or porous borders but it's a question what do you do with 11 or 12 million people who are already here doing jobs we want them to do the help our society and the vast majority of them are a law-abiding people who is to say or just trying to have better lives the idea that you're going to break up families and send people back by the millions and it added that you're going to devote your law enforcement resources to doing this when you have real terrorism and real crime to to deal with his pure insanity and and also totally unethical and yet

he doesn't get any points dock for this aspiration and it is just one of the things around with people are around me

but the climate change thing is also insane and dangerous is a birther right he was one of the original Breakers he was saying that Obama's birth certificate was bullshittin he was born in Kenya right wasn't he one of those guys oh yeah he was I would like a funding that for a while if you got in the office and just said listen folks I am nothing like this person I pretended to be to win the presidency I just want to show you that you've been manipulated and get it together then if peaches Punk to all out some tiresome people who actually know how to run things the smart people who are voting for him think and this is I think an actually a crazy position but that they they think that he is just pandering to the idiots who he needs to Pander to to get it off at so he's he's not disavow in the white supremacist votes you know what the the alacrity

you would if you were a decent human being and you found out the David Duke so is supported you because he needs to he just needs those boats and he knows that most of the people in his base are going to Care he can just kind of come move on in the in the new cycle and he's doing this on all these issues where he look where smart people see that he looks like the phone in the end they are treating him as a the people that don't like him or treating him as a comic figure who he can't really believe that stuff he's not really he's too sophisticated to really believe that. So he's just pandering the one is it people aren't seeing

if that's true just how unethical and weird that is right here the guy has no compunction about lying and demonizing people cyclist and he said he thinks that

that Clinton really isn't guilty with Bill Clinton isn't really guilty of of a rape right and now he's calling him a rapist right now at the time he was saying he wasn't a rapist and he's just being defamed in this is outrageous, said he was taking the side of a friend do you know he invited to his wedding but now he's he's calling a rapist write a sexual predator who harmed women's rights more than anyone so which is true right so it's okay there's there's no version of the truth here that makes Trump look at all acceptable as a person like either he knew he was a rapist in was defending him because he was just closing up to power at that point right didn't care that he's a rapist or now he he knows he if he still is still the guy who thinks he wasn't a rapist but now he's truly opportunistic reasons he's what he's what he's willing to call the guy rapist who he knows isn't there both horrible right and it's not like this new evidence has come forward and

I'm yours that would have changed his mind about what happened in the in Clinton's presidency so he's but I think people think that he's got to be much more sophisticated than he is and that if he got into office he would just be a totally sober and presidential person this is no reason to believe that if he thinks climate change is a hoax and that we should pull out of the Paris Accords and what your ramp of coal production and and bring back the coal jobs and this is what he saying right there's no reason to think he doesn't believe this at this point that's just it is a disastrous thing for a president to think

the only fascinating versions of this that I've been hearing from people that I respect our that the idea that he is like the political version of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs but he's going to come down and smash it and it's going to be so chaotic that they going to be forced to reform the system and people going to respond and turn like the way people responding against factory farming more people going vegan like that kind of a thing they're going to see it and they can respond in turn here that is such a so so just going to toss the apple cart up in the air in a fucking asshole goofy system up and then we'll be able to rebuild after Trump has dismantled all the all the different special interest groups and lobbyists and all the people that we really would like to get out of the system we really don't like the fact there such insane amount of influence that corporations and lobbyists have had on the way laws get passed them this might be the way to do it you have some wild Maggie everyone's fired you're fired you're fired

Datsun it's like a character like he's coming in his hair is plastic is all fired up he's a billionaire made all his own money sort of dad gave him some money but you turned into a lot of money point being doesn't need anybody to the truth is probably lying about the amount of money has to is it is he's he's a baller for sure though right at the very least they could be a big difference between what he's claiming that true but he's he's a many pieces hear me people assume that because he's a successful businessman he must understand the economy right which was no necessary connection there right there's a lot of rich people who are totally confused about economics and most Economist don't have a lot of money so it is not is not no real connection there but the

the amazing what you're describing is a kind of just random like they're just smash the window yeah and then see what happens right like I'm going to light a fire to this this place and and see what happens and that's

almost any process by which you would change the system is more intelligent than that you know and it's also not value and how much harm one bad president could do like there's no I think even I haven't tested this but I'm imagining that even Trump supporters would answer this question away I would hope which is okay if I had a crystal ball they could tell you we can't tell you who's going to be present but it tells you how it works out for the next president I would like it if I look in this crystal ball and it says the next president knighted states is a disaster I guess it's like the worst president we've ever had it just think of it just failures of governance and and the toxic influence of narcissism and hubris that comes along just like once every thousand years right just just disaster

I think you know even if you're a trump supporter which candidate that was like I only Trump is it is likely to screw things up that badly it's not in Clinton is going to be is going to be almost perfectly predictable she's going to be a politician she's going to she's going to be basically Centrist on a lot of the on foreign policy and domestic policy again she's going to be liberal on social issues she is not going to

try to be a dismantle NATO and to get into a war with North Korea or to get into an alliance with Putin or image she's not going to do something insane and highlights with Putin he said basically only favorable things about food and their homes they're tight so she get I hopefully will see pictures with both of them on Horseback shirtless and I have to go right now yeah

when when you just look at the landscape between Bernie and Hillary and him and you know he to me it looks like The Last gasps of a Dying system represented by government system are saying that things like that but they're not

hearing just how nihilistic that is if true right right like like weed there's so much stuff we have to get right right and there's so much the only tool to get it right is is having your your mind actually understand what's going on in the world and how to manipulate the world in the direction you want to go see how to understand at what weather is not climate change is true your beliefs about it have to be representative of that truth right right let's say it's what they are mistaken and there's no there is no human cause climate change is not a problem and every moment spent thinking about it worrying about it the correct name for it is just a waste of time it's just throwing out me know with the wealth of the world right that would be a terrible

bank right would really matter who's right about that and and the fact that we have a president candidate who is coming in saying this is all bulshit in defiance of all of the science is and it's it's truth but it's every other building problem I guarantee you he doesn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite Islam or which countries are Sunni predominately in Witcher hsieh prominently and I am sure he's going to do I know when he's going to cram for this final exam I'm sure both or one of those debates he's going to get into someone to sit down with him and give him some bullet points he's got to have in his head but his head is just not in this game it's never been in this game but it's obvious from everything he says and that's what that is something you can't say about Clinton right for all of her flaws as a person I don't care how much you hate her as a person she understands what's going on in the world and that's that difference is sewing

warmest forget about all the other character flaws of of this guy who who was just obviously going to I mean he's are we attach too much to this idea of one person being the figurehead if we all woke up today if everybody woke up and there was just no government was nothing we're all just wait what happened I don't know but we got to figure out how to run this thing well we had no no previous understanding of government would you think anybody would say we need one do to just run this whole giant continent fill with 300 million people most likely if we woke up and we have technology like we have today we have the ability to communicate like we have today with social media and whatever we would probably say we need to like figure this out amongst each other and find the people that the most qualify for each one of these positions and start running our government that way that's what we're attempting to do but it's just and I totally agree with you that it is astonishing that out of a nation of 300

people these are the choices yeah you would think you would think it was starting from your your face that you're zero set point of just you know now we're going to reboot civilization you would think that if you had this kind of process each candidate would be more impressive than the next Maze Runner be like I can't believe that each person who LeBron James dunk contest you know all my God I could just just when you thought you saw the best dunk in your life or the next guy comes along and it would be that it would be that on every topic rights be like you be talkin about the science of climate change to be talking about that the actual dynamics of the war on terror YouTube topics it that seemed had to have no relationship where you would have to be you'd be amazed that anyone could be an expert in all of them you would find someone who is an expert a functional expert in all of them

oh yeah but try and put someone who's also ethically wise who does it wasn't just wasn't obviously an asshole and who Who had who had a a mature relationship to change in his or her mind right so like that this whole bit about flip-flopping and and not going to be like someone who could honestly represent changes of Mind in across a political career right that is a good thing to believe it today what you believe 20 years ago in fact they do that on every topic it means basically you haven't been in dialogue with the world but there's something to eat it's so taboo to change your mind that either you have to lie about it or you have to pretend it was it was always that way or it's just a system the system is

is broken in that respect but given the choices you know and when you have a choice between someone who is for all her flaws

been in the game for long enough to be really well-informed and capable of compromise and capable of not just just breaking the entire machine and you have someone who's just he could just got stepped off the set of his reality TV show and then a lot about everything and and elbowed his way you no deal on to your television set and never left because you know CNN couldn't figure out how to give the mic to someone else it's a it's amazing what is the weight of a tension because they realize that there's a that heated race right the heated races guys really famous and in the heated race this guy would say some crazy stuff until they would tune in to am so everybody had it tuned into I was so because of him saying crazy stuff he accelerated the amount they were talking about them so they're constantly talked about him and barely talk about other people and

but he's created a wormhole in our political process now where there's nothing so crazy that could disqualify him among the people who like him. So he can just keep it like nuclear bombs of craziness that that that that the Press can't ignore that the every time I think okay this is the crazy thing he said that's going to harm his candidacy so let's shine a light on it it just helps him so he could just he could see you know he could eat again on Twitter right now so you know who I'd like to fuck I like about Nicki Minaj and

and it would work for him it would work for me you would see if you see a tweetstorm of a billion people as they knew I'd like to fuck Nicki Minaj till I go get her and it's Insanity that's where we are

but in a sense if we we we we do admit this is a fucked-up system it's not ideal it should definitely be reworked and it's so hard to rework when the best way to rework it a trump asteroid just slammed right into the White House Bloom blow the whole thing sky-high who knows what terrible things have to happen but maybe that would be enough to have those those asteroids are coming anyways sweet when you look at you like 9/11 was an asteroid right so it's like a hit or a superbug that it becomes a pandemic that leave it these are things that are coming and we need people who

are in touch with with reality to deal with them I told you like what the moment someone advertises they are not only their ignorance but the fact that they don't care that they're ignorant and I do that this again and again I keep doubling down that person is like if you put that person at the helm what you have done is basically put chaos at the hell this person going to believe whatever he believes regardless of the information coming in and regardless of the consequences that's just in meme it's it's it's worse than having no one in charge because you're who you even be put the power in this person's hands right of this for this person is everything has to go through this node in the network does just like an information scrambling device right so I can have that no matter how good the information is coming in you have everything that you've got a bottleneck here with stripped screws up the signal right

that's what you're doing if you're if you're if you're hiring someone like this who I mean that in the best case you're what you stated earlier would in fact be true where to go get into the Oval Office and even he will be scared about the prospect that he's now running for the better part of human civilization and he will hire the best people at work some semblance of the best people he can get access to and say to tell me how to not screw this up and and that will be and then it'll then it'll essentially be business as usual right insofar as you've hired it at the best people will be people people who are deeply in this game already right and I will defer to the generals when it comes time to make war being real really pragmatic about how they pick politicians and how they push certain people inside out to push others do you think that something like Trump completely changes how they move forward now they realize that this can happen like now that you see that people

we're so WWE doubt that you can get this guy you know I mean this is this is what we're at where we got a guy I told him the wall just got 10. Did you say that once they realize if that's possible how long before you get like some motivational speaker type dudes for they start jumping in there that's what we have is that that's what this is all this is way worse than Tony Robbins sort of ability to excite people like a motivational speaker do is like most guys wears a lot of yoga pants and he's going to he's going to be the next president

reality show America's a reality show where there where are there

did you just did you see this Press Conference held it was yesterday a weirdo I did not know there was a very funny moment where the prayer that was one Journal I said I didn't recognize who it was who gets old so-and-so Trump is being very combative with the the Press pool and he was he was basically you can of shouting them down not answering any question and one journalist just a gas said is this what is going to be like when your present is this how is this how it was going to be like to be in the White House Press Corps and deal with you and and he said yes this is but if you could just see that like that the journalist like they've been turn the camera on the room a journalist and they

they are astonished by what is happening here they don't know they're participating this process and in some sense they have created this process but

is it no not all of you just many of you enough of us it is this what is it is this what it's going to be like covering you with your president yeah yeah it is going to be like this David if the Press writes. Or he's like they did with this because you know half of you were amazed that I raised all of this money give the Press writes Paul snort like they did where I wanted to keep a low profile I didn't want the credit for raising all this money for the Vets I wasn't looking for the credit and by the way more money is coming in I wasn't looking for the credit but I had no choice but to do this because the Press were saying I didn't raise any money for them not only did erase it much of it was given a long time ago and there is a vetting process and I think you understand that but when I raised almost 6 million dollars and probably in the end we raised more than six because more is going to come in and is coming in but when I raised 5.6 million as of today more is coming in and I and end this is going to phenomenal groups and that many of these people

wedding the people that are getting the money and you play the moment I was referring to

I'm excited to hear is it but case where he's probably almost certainly lying about his history of giving to Veterans Affairs and says he gave money very recently after people started fishing around to see if he actually had given the money that he claimed to have given to the veterans but I mean this is what's Difficult about this is that yes there are the presses highly imperfect in there and also part is in and there are false stories and there are exaggerations and they screw people over yes and their reasons to

not trust the Press from time to time but that mean the in this case that you have a

someone who did that there is no amount of fact-checking and disconfirmation of the statements that that forces him to ever acknowledge anything that he's done wrong and the and the lack of acknowledgement that he pays no price for tomorrow among the people who like him and so depressed powerless and then and then to put the net result of like a press conference like this if you were Trump's follower is

he just showed how biased and and Petty the Press pool is the Press do need to just be beaten up by a strong man who who's not going to stand for the bullshit I but it's a it's a it's Unbecoming the very least that kind of communication it's kind of Unbecoming that there is no expect and that's pretty mild compared to his Levi's he's parroting of the of the disabled reporter who he saw that bit where he you know did like a cerebal palsy imitation at one of his speeches he was interviewed by I don't know who it was or what he's done so many things that you could do that you would think

mutation it's kind of Unbecoming that there is no expect of the of the disabled reporter who he saw that bit where he in a did me like a cerebal palsy imitation at one of his speeches he was interviewed by I don't know how to make it he was making fun of somebody with cerebral palsy I mean he's done so many things that you could do that you would think would be fundamentally canceling of a person's political aspirations like like you keep cat you cut Marco Rubio pretending to be like at just goofy on someone cerebral palsy at it at one of his campaign events right things that sunk Ted Cruz was just that video of him with his family the outtakes weather

would be fundamentally canceling of a person's political aspirations like like you keep cat you cut Marco Rubio pretending to be like at just goofy on someone cerebral palsy at it at one of his campaign events of him with his family the outtakes where they were going to see if it's a gem it's spectacular it's him with his mom and he's like my mom prays for me off in 4 hours every day and she like she looks hours every day no I don't even say that until they have all these really awkward moments like okay I'm going to go in for a hug I'm going to say I love you and that got online and people like oh Christ OK I see that this is this is a bad game I can't even good at this game this is you. You're terrible at this game he was attractive

my mom prays for me off in 4 hours every day and she like she looks really awkward moments like okay I'm going to go in for a hug I'm going to say I love you all right it's all like weirdly mapped out and that got online people Largo Christ okay this is this is a bad game I can't even good at this game this is why you're terrible at this game where he was objectively terrible. I think it would think that proves that never even got out which was the reason to be scared about a cruise presents he was his level of religious craziness me no one was even pushing on that because it wasn't just enough to push on before we even got to that door do you have to hold on to those weapons yeah but if it had been a bad Cruise been the nominee

well that's his that's Trump's competition will think it would think that proves that never even got out which was the reason to be scared about a cruise presents he was his level of religious Grey's Anatomy no one was even pushing on that because it wasn't just enough to push on before we even got to that door that you have to hold on to those weapons yeah but if it hadn't been a cruise been the nominee it would have been all about religion what's what's odd is that that's not a handicap into

it would have been all about religion what's what's odd is that that's not a handicap in 2016 that you can have that and people consider it an asset what that one thing is surprising and actually hopeful in Trump's candidacy

is the fact that he is he is dissected out the religious social conservative component of of the Republican party so it's likely the evangelicals for the most part we're going for Trump over Cruise when it was pretty clear to them that Trump was just pretending to be religious and mistletoe Trump gave one speech at Liberty University where he spoke he said you know Corinthians 2 and if that's not the way any the Bible reader wood would speak about the 2nd Corinthians 2nd Corinthians yeah and him so he said he said Corinthians do it like me as though this is something he can either just opened every every night before you went to sleep and so it is clear that it was clear to them that he's that he is just just mining the language you know where or

impersonating a person to Faith and but they don't care really as long as he does it and that's that is if you don't look for a silver lining to this it shows that it's not it's as if they just want

a space where their religious convictions are not under attack and they don't really care that the person in charge share them just use it if you pretend to share them that's good enough and that's that's better than actually Karen that this person really believe in the Rapture or anyting else that is quite obviously crazy but yet so I don't think any Christian is voting for Trump thanks and then they'll say I'm not going to judge another man's Faith right around that you who am I to say what's really in his heart like I say that but he's just giving you if you could have been paying attention to who is Ben and and if you just look at how we talked about these things he's fooling any any Christian that so I think they're willing to vote for someone for now for other reasons that are fairly depressing in their own right they're willing to to vote for someone who doesn't really play the game

the way they do

you have to believe in God to be president 2016 right when you when you say that that has to pretend to believe in God but I think with Trump I think it's I think it's the pretenses

is obvious enough that I don't think he's fooling the better part of the of the people who are voting for him who who would who would say they care about a person of Faith being in the white house so I think he might be in one thing you might be breaking is the barrier on having an Atheist president because I think he

it's just no but nobody thinks he is a person of faith I don't think anyone really thinks that so so he's as well another Trump media are not right and White House yeah I'm starting to sound like a trumpet an asteroid does something good who would be the ideal president I mean like what what kind of a person do I mean it would probably a person who doesn't seek attention probably a person that they could be that the process is even an even an optimized process will be

require enough sacrifice of what Ordinary People want most of the time that it will be an unusual personality who has to get promoted mean you will be on some Metric be

it means it's almost by definition narcissistic to think that you should be in this role right where I think that you should be running civilization at this moment human history and for you to be on it for you to honestly stand at the podium and say I'm the guy you know where the woman I am the most qualified I should be doing this right I can help and if you are going to scrutinize the kind of personality that it could give rise to those opinions it's not yet there is there some dials you would probably want to change each week if you have to be married to this person or inside cuz it's not an optimal personality if so it's going to be it is a kind of pathology of a power seeking that might be just intrinsic to it but

you want someone who is actually wise ethically a map that onto Trump right just that he's imagine someone saying thing I like about Trump is that he is so deeply ethical and wise right it's just

it does not I mean cuz that's like saying it it's because his hair looks so natural just know of what he is right there like about Trump is that he is so well informed about the way the world works and where he's not informed that he recognizes his ignorance so quickly and he remedies it as fast as possible he he do you know who seeks out the best experts refers to them and you know he's just he is mindful of the limits of his knowledge as he is he is about his expertise and his expertise is Bast you'd want to be able to say that about a present you could not begin to say that about Trump right you could probably say that honestly could probably say that about Clinton right after all her defects she's very knowledgeable and I'm

sure she will just try it when she got where she doesn't feel like she's got to know if she's going to try to go to the go to the source of the knowledge right just grabbed the best experts you can find I think she would I think she will be as aware as you are I would be of the consequences of not knowing what's going on right she's just going to want to find out what's going on where are all Trump has advertised about himself is that he thinks that Bluster and banality

and bullying will win in every situation just like it is his attitude he said the guy is the guy is winging it and they could not be more obvious that this guy is winging it on every level on this like it's just it is it is

is there be no way for him to Signal the fact that he's winging it more clearly than he is with everything he's doing and end it there's no penalty do you think it's possible that this age of information the way we can communicate with each other that we're going to experience these Cycles these waves these in and out these high and low tides of really smart presidents and really stupid president and we just people revolt and it's just it's so easy to stay alive is plenty of stupid people out there and so they're only willing to vote for other dumb folks so the other dumb folks get into position they send out the frequency that only the dummies here and everybody else is going what the fuck is everybody voting for this guy for what is happening and then it makes the smart people Rebound in 4 years and challenge themselves a new because they they need some sort of an enemy to Rally against to reach their full potential

and it without the low tide you cannot have the High Tides at Harrison. So hopefully that's not an analogy that applies to the maintenance of civilization to smell ya ya know the time and at the very least it's a wake-up call for the political establishment this silly game even running of two candidates just doesn't work someone can co-opt your candidacy get in there for the fucking monkey wrench into the gear system and guess what Trump's running for president now he's that he's the head he's the head guy for the Republican how is that even possible they don't know if he's awake if nothing else it is a total wake up call for the Republicans minute they are just asked you a ghast yeah it's June everything's decided lockdown so we have July August September October November we're that close

but if he's not someone who has been who is aligned with the Republican platform in most ways right so it is like he's been trained is virtually no one knows what it what his policies are because he he keeps changing his position on things like taxation is like if it actually is no case he said he's talked on both sides of Korra shook or republican issues but I mean many ways he's left of Hillary right he's you know his left of Hillary in terms of being an isolationist in like he's in his his relationship to war is but both extreme like he's like no we're just going to get out of the world's business right working to be isolationist which is deeply anti-republican

but I'm going to be the maniac who you're never going to know who I'm going to bomb next right when you were going to wipe out Isis or just straight away and I did not not a man left standing and I'm not going to take any shape from anyone including China and North Korea and took his that but we're going to pull back in a huge way and not be in anyone's business right he said both of us

it's it's it was way too interested way and we don't want politics to be this interesting and it's going to fit me in November is going to be at the polls are closed and watching those debates and then and waiting for a swing in the polls as a result is just going to be going to be way too interested in the Super Bowl those the first debate

I have a prediction

I think

I think it's entirely possible that this whole thing was a plot that didn't work out cuz I think he probably came out of the gate saying crazyshit thinking he would the Republican party and get his friend Hillary Clinton into the White House know that kept trying to make stuff up by Mexicans I just kept making them get better and better and now it's stuck I can't pull out

hey that that would be that would be a great moment that would change the system but we going to have to go through something like this in order for us to realize that this is crazy that a guy can just do this can just not really have any interest in politics but then he should get The Nobel Prize for everything if he pulls out at this point and just listen I'm just I took you to the precipice here I just cuz I want you to recognize how unstable the situation is Mu you guys could elect a demagogue who is actually an incoherent demagogue I'm not I haven't even been playing an incoherent authoritarian right I'm I'm I'm on the one hand very liberal right and tolerant and on the other hand I'm like getting ready to be Hitler and you guys can't figure out who I am and that you're still up there to vote for me for him to do a post-mortem on on his punking of the culture that would be the best

that's ever happened but I don't think that's that's what's happening we need someone like this so that we realize how silly this whole thing is do we need someone like me I don't know we need a qualified person to deal with all of the other hassles and dangers that are coming our way that have nothing to do with what we do right I got that purse is not that even if we were doing everything perfectly

they would still be the tsunami of risk right and Hassle and

waist and all the rest of the world chaos that is coming our way and it just forget me or even if we had our our house in order in every respect we still have terrorism and global climate change will you have got you to get China and India and what are they doing in terms of complying with with clinicals you have all the things we've been talking about a certainty that there's going to be a pandemic bioterrorist here fact that in 1918 there was a killer flu and there's going to be another killer flu flu and we need we need people and people to smart people to change the to optimize the system to deal with these kinds of things and

you're promoting religious maniacs and and crazy narcissists and Liars

and ignoramuses and only that those people how could this end well I was just a weird year for like heavyweight boxing you know they have those weird use for help me find somewhere that has terrible happened and they are you in or you could do you have to wake me up in the world. Time in like the early eighties for Tyson came around was a series of like these Champs there were like you know sort of like journeyman fighter right and then Tyson came along with heavy weights are always bad ass but I think that maybe that's what's going on maybe we need to have this bad season get the season out of our way realize the danger of having an inept person and office whether it's a liar or I do hate money or or or Trump whoever it is just go through it and realize how silly it is that we have it set up this way still accept people thought that of Hitler visit you know that any comparison to Hitler obviously brand to you as

exaggerator but did not let him get in there and fuck it up as a while somebody better Hitler was a comic figure for a while for a good long while and it people work in including the American Press were incredibly slow to recognize what a Sinister character he was and he was he was considered a buffoon and you know there was like a this is maybe Jamie could find this I think it was home and garden house and going home and garden there was a write-up on his you know where Eagles Nest to his house that was just you just just this pure puff piece of of you know Hitler love in in our architectural magazine home with Saphira I think this is a what is like a garden right upper Homes and Gardens are the people you can see the the actual pages I think they're being a PDF

going to be a couple pages of the of the article this is probably the actual text of the article but it's hilarious it's just you know like architectural digest does he know the Eagle's Nest and let it sit a time where is not too far away from a moment where it should have been absolutely obvious to every thinking person that this guy was going to try to conquer the world for evil right and it wasn't obvious and end it when you look at how it was not obvious it's pretty humbling you you don't know you would have been necessarily different I'm excited for the up until this conversation practically I've been looking at Trump as

the clown right I just bought a house how what what would this clown actually do with the power of the presidency you know I don't know that he couldn't be him he's he's given voice to a kind of authoritarianism that you're some people are his enemies are noticing his friends are discounting but he's talked about going after the press and bragged about how many people he's going to torture right he's talked about yellow of course we know what do waterboarding and we're going to do worse and will maybe we'll kill the kill the families of terrorists right and he put this what kind of a

I mean it's just he's

make America great again what would he do if he if he actually had more power than anyone in the world I think it's it's a transition from you, di to oh my God we can't take this back you know in anything like a short-order you know that would be too could well be terrifying

what did go back to the question of heavyweights why do you think you could be a fake heavy weight and not a fake middle way is not that many really good athletes that go to boxing with a really large them to 10 to go to football or basketball to really tall it's like if you look at the amount of money that like guys in the NBA can make or guys the NFL to make me the really top-level guys to make a tremendous amount of money so when you get to really super athlete guys they tend to gravitate towards the big name I mean is no bigger name Sports in football so getting someone to abandon the whole team thing and having the balls to go one-on-one in a cage and having that mentality that's also very different because it's not necessarily the smartest thing to do but it's the most challenging thing to do and there's some really smart people that do it so even though cage fighting isn't not the safest way to get through life for a lot of people that engage and it becomes

extreme extremely difficult Pursuit and then that's what it becomes to them you know and in the heavyweight division

those guys were being lowered into other ways and boxing was just kind of went through like a peak and Valley when Ali and then I went Larry Holmes noodle Larry Holmes amazing people in appreciate him for how good he was so that does not like the middleweight level that didn't have the same competition for that kind of athlete deal for a little Dicky little lulls in the middleweight division but it's always pretty fucking strong but why wouldn't you have the same competition for the high level athlete at like the 165 weight make it this is not our favorite sports are required bigger people like basketball and football and baseball this really apply here the amount of cultures that produce heavy weights first of all are severely limited like very few heavyweights have come from Asia except Polynesian guys which I guess is kind of Asian but like like Samoans Samoans known to be great if I put Giants sturdy heavyweights like the Chinese don't really produce them that

offend some of the people and get that big in Japan it's it's a Sumo but yeah but they're very fat there's never been like a guy who looks like Mike Tyson that came out of Japan in the 80s that while we're seeing more of that now but I mean if we had a guy that was like a Japanese version of Mike Tyson just a super-fast blinding knockout fighter with a fucking head like a brick wall on a giant neck that started above his ears and went down to his traps remember Tyson when he first came on the scene he was unbelievably terrifying so it was never that Japanese person has that kind of physical strength so I think it's limited genetically and I think in a lot of the competitive boxing countries attended be poor countries and I think also in a lot of poor countries you'll see much smaller man like you'll see like some some men are like flyweights biking so it's very rare you find an American flyweight most Americans are larger to get more food I think probably has a lot to do with it or just just

genetics in general but like South America produces a lot of flyweights like Philippines at stop course with Manny Pacquiao came from and he was like eight weight classes lower when he first started going to be a great athlete at 120 lbs or $130,000 lot of sports yeah well steam to do especially if you I mean some of these guys are really tiny but they're amazing boxers right I mean there's there's a ton of them but the United States Johnny Tapia was a smaller guy I think what it would wait to Johnny Tapia find out so you find that out but there's some lightweight guys at we're just so incredible they brought so much attention to those divisions but there was never his make a little Peaks and valleys were greatness comes in and then people have to recover in the new people come on with a gray button is always been pretty steady

Woody fight at Super flyweight so he was one of the rare Americans Mexican-American Johnny top he was up bad motherfuker super-flyweight which is what is that like 1:26 or something maybe 1:30

I need to know what time is bantamweight I think it's in the UFC it's different there's different weight classes 115-pound wow crazy wild wild guy they did a documentary about him how did he died but he had a lot of problems with drugs and crime and craziness and he had like mi vida loca tattoo on his chest fighter to watch is so much fun I think you know where the bigger people are you know I just think they tend to gravitate towards other sports and I think that's all it is sandboxing like you always like 160-147-2162 always been like the promised land it's Sugar Ray Leonard Marvin Hagler Roberto Duran Floyd Mayweather's in there Sugar Shane Mosley's in there so many

weather in that that mix. That's The Sweet Spot that's always has been this great Fighters and glass strength and speed at that yeah I think you see the UFC 200 I think well but it comes to just freaked movements I always think that the flyweights and the bantamweights got twenty-five and thirty-five So the faster than Tabasco looking like 20% faster than anybody I was wondering how much of that is because they're just not affected by gravity as much and also got affected by the blows their being landed by the other guy so I guess it's it's Mighty Mouse Minnie Mouse is one of the few guys that division that consistently stops people did you see his last fight with Henry sahuto know it was incredible was insane mean he fought this guy full metal of some of the best wrestlers to ever compete in MMA I mean he is just a stud wrestler in a really good kickboxer 2 and Mighty Mouse clenched up with him and hit him with these knees to the body that word

out-of-this-world technical to sew perfect no wind up no slop just drill Domaine on each side with perfect Precision need is crumpled he's like what he got the victory on North to the body need the shit out of his body even their face but it was the fluidity of the way who is moving his knees in the perfect position. I mean it was they were so perfectly oiled like everything was going down a path it is done a million times or just like I was better than I've ever seen without a doubt the most one of them mothers to there's another one between Anderson Silva and Rich Franklin but that was like a prolong brutal Beatdown where Anderson just keep beat beat dog sitting up in the clan chat broke his nose is that what does one wear

yeah I bet I saw a member of a victory was a wide Mentor or was it still if I can't remember if someone just want on a need of the chest against someone who was can you can you need someone who is down there since Albright Mighty Mouse did in this fight that was crazy was the Precision of the placement of the knees and I quickly changed Bam Bam Bam Bam just control them they control you guys in Olympic gold medalist wrestler wrestler was really pretty impressive stuff like really really amazing sharp technique but I wonder what could have you even move like that yeah probably not as you get bigger they're just things you can't do it clearly is there's a limit to the size you can be and be not only athletic but even ambulatory I mean you can't you couldn't have a 30 foot tall person who could walk around and you know your bones would break and you

as mass goes up but with a cube of just decide if it is why if you want

what part of Minnesota have a different point but like if you if you if you could drop an ant off the Empire State Building and it'll it's it'll fallen and hit the ground and be fine crop a horse off the Empire State Building it's going to be a liquid horse it say I'm in there your ear you have no air resistance with surface area

did the Arabs are some close up with buy it by the square the surface area is so but that doesn't counteract for the mass going up with a cube the volume so that the horse is bigger you think it might be able to kind of act like a wing more as much as the aunt would ask a lot of air resistance is China so it's a horse but it's it's it's masses is going up with a cube of its with a cube of its size so it's some the bear doesn't resistance fall at all compared to what it's doing for an aunt

but yeah but yeah we have no limit on this this is one function like if you if you're going to engineer the super athlete and if we're going to give you like chimpanzee muscle protein do whatever to make you super bowls have been strong you have to get that right with your you know your connective tissue in your bones and everything else because you can rip your own arm off with your you know. Most yeah if you wouldn't be mad if your chimp strength and human tendons I could lie and I'm sure you saw that video of the little boy who got into the gorilla cage shoot the gorilla that seems I heard a lot of I didn't pay a lot of attention to the commentary but

it seemed pretty straightforward to me I mean if they have to shoot the gorilla who ya like I'm with the zoo on that one and it's totally tragic and it's I'm at what how is a zoo zoo is certainly culpable for having an enclosure that a three-year-old or four year old can get in to write a how the hell that happened but so you got to fix that and but it is totally tragic but once you have a 400-pound gorilla that has a human child and is not letting it go is kind of dragging it around maybe it wasn't looking aggressive for the child but it just the fact that it moved it around with that kind of force who the who knows what was going to happen to me that it didn't look like you had to end that as quickly as we have to assume that that girl is going to know that a baby is more fragile than a baby gorilla that soon I don't assume anything you can't say I know knows no way I could know I'd never experienced that of

totally tragic and sure the the the parents and the and the zoo are reaping sufficient criticism but once that situation is unfolding I think you can't strangle Isaac's it doesn't work fast enough right now so and what time I graduated in fear and attacked Jesus Christ a scary though if you lose your kid I think he probably likes shoot that fucking gorilla oh yeah it was your kid if more people were carrying guns. It it said it was in Cincinnati right if I'd been a text as he probably would have had some some innocent bystander who was going to take the law into his own hands and Chuck Norris pants jump right over the rail open fire

it's I saw some horrible comments to people like they should just shot the parents while they were at it and like why it's easy to be outraged be able to get in first of all gorilla enclosure it is an architectural failing at me should it should be impossible I should be impossible for adults to get in there with it with a gorilla and yeah it's been happening with like it's pretty regular lately like guys been breaking into zoos and there's like some guy try to find recently right

Jesus Christ mean you got to realize you got a lot of responsibility when you have monsters in a cage in your city can't let babies get in there with him and that's a gorilla is awesome as it is but if it wanted to attack you it's monstrous Beast it's a thing with power that you couldn't even fathom a gorilla could literally pick you up and throw you like you could have football I mean they can launch you there so strong or something crazy pounds like about sap 400lb was 300 pounds but it's like 300 lb gorilla is much stronger than Bob Sapp nonequivalent pounds it's unfathomable the amount of physical strength and muscle

just sucks that they keep them in zoos in the first place it sucks that they had to kill him but it really sucks that they keep doing the zoo thing with smart stuff like if you want to have giraffes in the zoo and I had a whole bit about it that they look like real relax cuz there's no liens around like they don't care if he's giving some food but there's some animals that look tortured and primates in particular they just look so freaked out in this enclosure and it's weird place where people are staring out of their Pace in and try to get away from people's gazes it's just now it's very very stressful to them I think it is a hard question what to do given certain of these species her are on the verge of Extinction right so like how do you preserve them obviously you can preserve them in all kinds of technical ways like like you don't have their DNA Frozen and and be able to reboot them at a certain point when we when we haven't

how to figure out how to preserve their habitat but the

yeah I mean I I think that I got a thing as a role for for good zoos to see you just want to maintain the Publix connection to these animals because it made the decision to destroy habitats is made by people who don't really care about the prospects of Extinction right it's a very good point when you resent it that way because the people that are over there a face that mean the people that are over in Africa trying to save gorillas and chimps and I mean that is an unbelievably difficult struggle and they might not make it there so there's a real concern that if there was no regulation at all and there was no one telling anybody what to do but they could just go in there and wipe them all out well SMS directly that's what I've done everything that anything that you can make money off of anything that you can see I don't know what the hell they use chimps and gorillas for why was the Hulk drink

Ethan and there's the why do they call a push me was you going to the bush going to MS Contin shoot everything they're hunting species that you don't think of his food species but there be another beating monkeys and gorillas and and that's why they call it bushmeat bushes they call a bush is like the jungle just hunting species that are better than not they're not going to see there's the other component of it which is there like me another the crazy ideas of the Chinese have about the medicinal properties of new tiger bone wine write a rhino horn or so so you have these species that are being hunted by poachers because there's a market for their parts in like I the ivory trade but do you know what some people just eat species that are endangered to the term Bush me is always associated with primates for some reason I was always trying to figure out

I don't know is that true know it's probably not but that was when I read about people eating chimps and I'll comment was my friend Steve rinella did the show in Bolivia where they shot and they ate a monkey and it's so weird to watch these people Yanomami they live in Bolivia and they live in very much like the way they probably live hundreds of years ago they're handmade bows and arrows he's long spear-like arrows hear that it's not like a regular bow and arrow that sits like a like a five-foot long arrow rest Ranger they walk around Barefoot and they have some Russian shotgun and their favorite thing to do is eat and have a Russian shotgun a Shotgun Rider on how they got from somebody and it made it all the way deep into the the jungle with the shells are very precious but their favorite thing to do is shoot and eat monkeys and their number one favorite thing to eat to eat and they

get on the show it was it's really weird to watch you talk about some strange genetic connection that you have with a very very human shape like the lips in the eyes and the face of a you can recognize a certain amount of human in that little little fella when they are fella female whatever female version of fella would be but so they could get over this fire and then made like this us to out of it but I actually like to go back to our on cultured meat conversation at one thing that's weird about that Prospect is that if in fact if you're making if it's growing cells and if that then there's no problem with cannibalism right so that you could be growing human meat in a right that's zero ethical problem but it's just as grotesque has

how is to my palate it's a fairly protesting the contemplate but these are just the distinction Muse talking about you know there is no in principle human DNA right undescended in at the cellular level

delete the

the difference between human muscle protein and meat a bovine muscle protein is not me that this if it was never attached to an animal it's a beginning with Concept here and I got me so you let me know when you if you bite a fingernail and swallow it are you practicing autocannibalism right now and it's it's a

at some level is it is a concept is doing a lot of work it's unignorable when you're talkin about depriving another person of life but if you're talkin about spinning up cells in a vat and then it becomes well does it really matter that who you know what it whether this is this was a person and maybe people would decide that it would be the only ethical Choice cases culture economy you can't harm any other animals on looking. You have to eat yourself this is what the hell I bake the cattle industry could do take just squash this that just to spread the rumor that they're human cells in those that he would meet your local Center you get scraped and then they start making your monthly Supply view Soylent Green is people and they just have it in a vat and they break you off a cube every week. Yeah I don't figure it out yourself that's the only way that you're allowed to live in harmony with nature we just have to kill

everything except us and eat ourselves tell us which part of your own body you want to eat for the rest of your life and we will culture those cells why I know it was you that I was having this conversation with once I believe where we were talking about how when Erie has become more educated and women become more educated it tends to slow the population down by people tend and they aren't even worried that if these graphs continued further on that people in industrialized parts of the world as you know they would have they get into the first world if they do more likely to have less and less people less and less for totally goes down with literacy and education with women

and is that yet so just kind of map that on to the life as you know it here so it's a women given all the choices available in educational and economic and inability to plan a pregnancy so we are here we will have women who want to have careers want to go to college when it in and they do they delay pregnancy to the point where they they have realize a lot of those aspirations and pregnancy is coming later and later and later and and and families get the smaller and smaller and and virtually no one chooses to have 10 kids in the face of all of us another opportunity that that will wear the things they also want that way right if they can avoid it if you can't avoid it wouldn't you just find yourself with 10 kids right how are you if you have some religious Dogma which says you though it's possible to avoid you shouldn't

what it cuz you were put here to have as many kids as possible but are you allowed to bring that up when you talk about the population crisis are you allowed to that mean that's a that's a fascinating piece of information which population prices are you thinking of is there are two different one to two opposite ones rise they don't let you have girls was it when you don't want if they lick lesson that I think they've relaxed that I think it's relax the one-child policy but I'm not sure I remember hearing something about that in the other one you would say India Winona State's know that there are the other there's there is an overpopulation prices in certain countries and in and disproportionately in the developing world and there is under population in the developed world that are most of Western Europe is not replacing itself so you're having these senescent populations who have two digits afternoon

either they rely on immigration for the carry on the functions of society because they're just they're not at anywhere near replacement has the most surprising detail that brings this home is that

there more adult diapers as a Japan and Morty adult diapers sold in Japan then baby diapers now just think about that for the implication of that for society right how do you have is assigned how do you have a functioning Society in a bar in your perfect robots that can tend to your needs where you have just

a disproportionate number people who are no longer economically productive relying on the labor of the young to keep them alive and clear their diseases and and defend them from crime all that but the the ratio is totally out of whack right so you need we need to like the world is a Ponzi scheme on some level you keep you need new people to come in to to maintain it for the old people boring apart from having some technology that allows you to do that without people but I think are everything I've heard that population recently suggested we are on course eating a globally to peek around nine and a half billion and then taper off I don't I don't think anyone now is forecasting this totally unsustainable growth we're going to wind up with a million nine and a half billion people who said done

where we going to get something like 20 billion people right I don't think anyone even though the in the most malthusian people are pressing that concern at the moment which which was the case like 20 or 30 years ago were they thought this just going to keep going and we're going to hit the carrying capacity of the earth which is something like forty billion people I don't think anyone thinks it was cuz we're just for tillett he's falling everywhere but it it but it is falling actually below roof replacement in in the developed world do you think in our lifetimes and in our children's lifetime it's feasible that we figure out a way in some way to I'm I'm not endorsing like taking people's money and giving it to other people but in some sort of a way to eliminate poverty

is that even possible possible to completely eliminate poverty worldwide and within like a lifetime well I think we talked about this the last time it when we spoke about a I but that mean this is the implication of much of what we talked about here if you if you imagine building the perfect labor-saving technology right where you met imagine just have

a machine that can build any machine that can do any human labor

you powered by sunlight more or less with the cost of raw materials rights that you're talking about the ultimate wealth generation device and I know we're not just talking about blue-collar Labor we're talking about the kind of Labor you and I do right till I see the artistic labor and scientific labor and you know just a machine that comes up with good ideas right about General artificial intelligence

this if in the right political and economic system this would just cancel any need for people to have to work to survive right it just would be there be enough of everything to go around and then the question would be do we have the right political and economic system where we where we actually could spread that wealth or would we just we just find ourselves in some kind of horrendous arms race and end a situation of of wealth inequality unlike any we've ever seen

it's a we don't we don't have the it's not a place now and if someone just handed us this device you know if if

and you know all of my concerns about AI were gone and there's no question about this thing doing things we didn't want it would do exactly what we want when we want it and there's no there's no danger of it with interest becoming misaligned with our own it's just like a perfect Oracle and a perfect designer of new technology if it was handed to us now

you know I would expect complete chaos right now it's play FeFe if Facebook built this thing tomorrow and announced it or the rumor spread that they have built it and what are the implications for Russia and China well as they are they are now you'll be rational for them to just new California right because happiness device is a winner-take-all scenario me what you win the world if you have this device you can turn the lights off in China you know the moment you have this device you can just give me the ultimate cuz it literally were talking about and let me know many people are made out whether such a thing as possible but I can't we just talk in about

the implications of intelligence that can make refinements to itself in overtime course that is there's no relationship to we experience as Apes right so you're talking about a system that can make changes to its own source code and become better and better at learning and more and more knowledgeable has instant if we give it access to the internet it does instantaneous access to all human and machine knowledge and it does you know thousands of years of work every every day

of Our Lives Rite Aid a thousand of years equivalent to human level intellectual work it's just a it's on our intuitions completely falter at 2 to capture just how immensely powerful such a thing would be and there's no reason to think this is impossible, don't let the most skeptical thing you can honestly say about this is that this isn't coming soon right there's like this is not but to say that if this is not possible makes no scientific sense at this point there's no reason to think that a sufficiently Advanced Digital computer can't can't instantiate general intelligence of this or that we have there's no reason to think that mean intelligent has to be at bottom some form of information processing and if we get the algorithm right with enough

Hardware resources and the limit is definitely not the hardware at this point it's it's the the algorithms

there's just no reason to think this could can't take off and and scale and we would be in the presence of something that is that is like having an an alternate human civilization in a box that is making thousands of years of progress everyday imagine that if you had in a box you know the 10 smartest people who ever lived and

you every time every week they make 20000 years of progress right big city because I did that this is the actual were talking about electronic circuits being a million times faster than than biological circuit so even if it was just and I believe I said this the last time we talked about a guy but this is name of this is what brings it home for me even if it is just a matter of faster rights not it's not anything especially spooky is this can do human level intellectual work but just a million times faster and again this totally under sells the prospects of super intelligent human level intellectual work is is going to seem pretty paltry in the end but if you just imagine a speeding it up imagine if we were doing this podcast imagine how smart I would seem if between every sentence I actually had a year to figure out what I was going to say next right until I say this one sentence and you say you ask me a question

and in my world I just have a year to go spend the next year getting getting ready for dinner for Joe and it's going to be perfect and this is just compounded upon itself I'm not only can I not only am I working faster ultimately I can change my my ability to work faster me like we were talking about software that can change itself you're talking about something that they become CEO self-improving so there's a compounding function there but it's the point is it's unimaginable in terms of how

how much change this could affect and if you imagine the best-case scenario where this is under our control right where there's no alignment problem where is just it doesn't this thing doesn't do anything that surprises us this thing will always take direction from us it will never it will never develop interests of its own right which is again to fear but let's let's just say this totally obedient it's just an Oracle and a genie route we know anyone and you know we say you know cure Alzheimer's and it cures Alzheimer's you know you saw the protein folding problem and it and it just as its ass off and running to develop a perfect nanotechnology and it does that this is all again going back to David Deutsch there's no reason to think this isn't possible because anything is compatible with the laws of physics can be done given the requisite knowledge right so he just may get enough intelligence

as long as you're not violating the laws of physics you can do something in that space

so but the problem is this is a winner-take-all scenario so Facebook does it tomorrow and China and Russia find out about it they can't afford to wait around to see whether the US decide to do something not entirely selfish with this right because and then there were they made their worst fears to be realize if Donald Trump is president was Donald Trump going to do with the perfect guy when he has already told the world that he you know I hate Islam right it's it's a we would have to have a political and economic system that allowed us to absorb this ultimate well save it well producing technology and and again to so this may all sound like pure sci-fi craziness two people use any reason to believe that it is but walk way back from that edge of craziness and just look at

dumb AI you narrow a I just self-driving cars and Automation and an intelligent algorithms that can do human level work that is already poised to change our world massively and create massive wealth and equality which we have we we we have to figure out how to spread this well you know what do you do when you can automate 50% of of human labor will you paying attention to the artificial intelligence go match I don't have to play go so I wasn't paying that kind of attention to it but I'm aware of what happened there and you know the rules of Go

not not that I know actually don't I don't want to play it on no I don't I don't think I know but I know vaguely how you how you how it looks when a game is played but I don't actually wants to be very complicated the more complicated has more possibilities than longer for a computer to be the best player in the world it's it is did you see how the computer did it to

why didn't I I know this to the company that did it is deepmind which is was acquired by Google and they are at The Cutting Edge of AI research and yeah well it's in the cartoons are proportionally not so far from what is possible but

the there's

again this is not this is not general intelligence can even play Tic-Tac-Toe right now there's some there there been some moves away from this would like deepmind has trained an algorithm to play all of the Atari games like oh from 1980 or whenever and it is very quickly became superhuman on most of them I think I don't think it's superhuman on all of them yet but if you could play in Space Invaders and all these and break out all these games that are are

highly unlike one another and it's the same algorithm becoming expert and superhuman in all of them and that's that's a new paradigm and it's using a technique called Deep learning for that and that's in that's been in a very exciting and I will be incredibly useful you know any other the flip side of all this I know that everything I tend to say on this sounds scary but this is all like the next scariest thing is not to do any of this stuff is like we want intelligent we want automation we want to figure out how to solve problems that we can't gets off so I can tell just the best thing we've got so we want more of it but we have to have a system where I mean it's scary that we have a system where if you gave the best possible version of it to one research lab or the one government

it's not obvious that that wouldn't destroy Humanity are they what they wouldn't lead to massive dislocations where you'd have you know some trillionaire who's trumpet in his new device and and Jesse a 50% unemployment in the US you know it will be a month right really like it is not obvious how we would absorb this level of progress and we we we definitely have to to figure out how to do it and of course we can't assume the best case scenario right that's the best-case scenario I think there's a few people that put it the way you put it that terrify the shit out of people right and everyone else seems to have this Rosie vision of increased longevity and automated everything and everything fixed and easy to get to work and medical procedures would be easier they're going to have to do it but everybody looks at it like we are always going to be here but are we obsolete I mean is this idea of a living thing that screen

even wrapped up in emotions and lust and desires and jealousy and all the pettiness that we see celebrated all the time we still see it it's not getting any better right if if obsolete I mean what if this thing comes along and says listen to should have waited to even abandon all that stupid shit you can abandon all that makes you all that stuff that makes you fun to be around yeah and also Fox if you can live three times as long without that stuff I think it

it would in the best case would usher in a

the possibility of a fundamentally creative life where a movie is on the order of something like the Matrix whether it's in the Matrix or just in the world that has been made as beautiful as a as possible based on

what would functional be an unlimited resource of intelligence Mississippi a

an ability to solve problems of A Sort that we can't currently imagine if it's just it really is like a place on the map that you can't you can't even indicate it's over there you know it's like a blank spot on the map is why it's called The Singularity right side of this is this is a it was John Von Neumann the

the inventor of Game Theory who mathematician who is what y'all want with Alan to her in a couple of other people is really responsible for the computer Revolution he was the first person to use this term Singularity to describe just this that that that there's a speeding up of

information processing technology and April a cultural Reliance upon it be on which we can't actually for see the level of change that can come over or are societies like an event horizon pass which we can't see and this certainly becomes true when you talk about these intelligent systems being able to make changes to themselves and again we're still talking mostly software is not I'm not imagining that the most important breakthroughs are almost certainly the level of of better software I mean is we have in terms of the computing power that the physical Hardware on Earth it's not that's not what's limiting Rai the moment I like we need more Hardware but we will get more Hardware to up to the limits of a physics and it'll get smaller and smaller as it has and you know what is quantum Computing becomes

possible or practical that will David deutsches is the physicist I mentioned is one of the fathers of the concept of quantum Computing that will open up a whole nother area Xtreme of computing power that is not at all analogous to the kinds of machines we have now but

it's just when you imagine

I think people don't people seem to always want to have it I just had this conversation with with Neil deGrasse Tyson on my podcast he named Romper it was just a few people I mean I'm super do you need ideas for him he's not out he doesn't take as long as he's not at all worried about AI what does he think he thinks that we just use he's trying an analogy from how we you currently use computers that they just they just keep helping us do what we want to do like we decide what we want to do with computers and we just add them to our process and that process becomes automated and then what will find new job somewhere else like you didn't you don't need a stenographer once you have voice recognition technology and that's not a problem with stenographer we'll find something else to do until the economic dislocation isn't that bad and computers will just get better than they are and you have a

play Siri will actually work you know any of you shall answer your questions well and you're not it's not going to be a you know laugh line what Siri said to you today and then all of this will just proceed to make life better right now none of that is imagining what it will be like to make a because it would be a certain point where you have systems that are you know

the chat the best chess player on earth is now always going to be a computer right this is never that is not going to be human born tomorrow it's going to be better than the best computer that's it like it's already that we have superhuman chess players on earth now imagine having computers that are superhuman at every every task that is relevant every intellectual tasks price of the best physicists is a computer into the best medical diagnostician is a computer the best prove or of math theorem just a computer that's engineer is a computer right now there's no there's no reason why that we're not headed there and they would be the only reason I could see we're not headed there as it's something massively dislocating happens that prevents us from continuing to improve our intelligent machines but if you just it the moment you admit that intelligence is just a matter of information processing

and you admit that we will continue to improve our machines unless something has happened because it's this intelligence and automation are the most valuable things we have at a certain point what do you think is in 5 years or 500 years we are going to find ourselves in the presence of super intelligent machines and then at that point

that the best source of innovation for the next generation of software or Hardware or both will be the machines themselves right so then so then you just have been that's where you get what was what they mathematician IJ good describe is as the intelligence explosion which is just that the process can take off on its own and this is where the singularity people either either are hopeful or worried but there's no guarantee that this process will be remain aligned with our interests and a and every person who I meet even mean a very smart people like Neil who says they're not worried about this when you actually drill down and why they're not worried you find that they're actually not imagining

ab machines making changes to their own source code and

they're not at war or they're they they simply believe that this is so far away that we don't have to worry about it now right and that's actually a non sequitur I mean to say that this is far away is not actually grappling with it's not an argument this isn't going to happen and it's based on what two and it's and it's based on and there's no there's no reason to believe Jimmy want to find out where that is

there's no we don't know how long it will take us to prepare for this right so like like if you were if you knew that it was going to take 50 years for this to happen is 50 years enough for us to prepare politically and economically to deal with the ramifications of this end and to do it and to add to say nothing to actually building the AI safely in a way that align with her interest I don't know so 50 years is is like we had the iPhone for what 10 years 9 years and I admit it's like 50 years not a lot of time right to deal with a deal with this end

this is no reason to think it's it's that far away if we keep making progress means it's not you'll be amazing if it were 500 years away in that that seems like it's it's it's more likely from what I sense I get from the people who are doing this work it's far more likely to be 50 years than 500 years like in a

Amanda Peet the people who think this is a long long way off or they're saying

5200 years no one says 500 years as far as I know no one is actually closed at this work and some people think it could be in 5 years right of the people who are we have like the deepmind people who are very close to this or are the sorts of people who say because of his work or astonishment what's happened in the last 10 years we went from a place of

you're very little progress to you know wow this is all of a sudden really really interesting and powerful and

and again progress is compounding in a way that's counterintuitive people systematically overestimate how much change can happen in a year and underestimate how much change can happen in 10 years and as far as estimating how much change can happen in 50 or a hundred years I don't know that anyone is good at that

how could you be with giant leaps come giant exponential leaps off those leaves and it's it's almost impossible for us to really predict what we're going to be looking at 50 years from now but I don't I don't know what they're going to think about us that's what's most bizarre about it is when we really might be obsolete we look at how ridiculous we are a look at this political campaign look at what we pay attention to in the news look at the things we really focus on where are strange ridiculous animal and why if we look back on you know some strange dinosaur that a weird neck watch that fucking thing make it you know why should we make it when we might be here to make that thing and that thing takes over from here with no emotions no loss no greed and just purely existing electronically and for what reason will that that's a little scary there are there are

computer scientist who when you talk about why they're not worried or talk to them about why they're not worried they just swallow this pill without any qualms that we're going to make the thing that is far more powerful and beautiful and important than we are and it doesn't matter what happens to us and then that that was our roll or role was to build these mechanical gods and and it's fine if with a squash has literally heard a 1/2 heard someone give a talk at that. That's what woke me up to how interesting this area's I went to this conference in San Juan about a year ago and it there were people from deepmind where they are in and they were the people who work for closest work with her and me to hear some of the reasons why you shouldn't be worried from people who

we're interested in in, in the fears of the Hill get on with doing their very important work it was amazing because they were highly compelling reasons not to be worried and I'm it is it is it was just so so they had a they had a desire to be compelled they're not they're not at all the people people want to do this way there's a deep assumption in many of these people that

we can figure it out as we go along right it's like you know it's just like we're going to we're just going to get far enough away now even five years has five years 5 years we'll get there when we get closer once we get something little scary then we'll pull the brakes and talk about it but the problem is they are sent everyone is essentially in a race condition by default and you have no Google is racing against Facebook and the u.s. is racing against China and every every group is racing against every other group however you want to conceive of groups this this is a to be the first one to be the first one with

incredibly powerful Naruto aoi is to be the next you know multi-billion-dollar company right everyone's trying to get there and if they suddenly get their entire overshoot a little bit and now they've got something like being a general intelligence in or something close but we're relying on every everyone else is attempting to do this right what we don't have a system set up where everyone can pull the brakes together and say listen we got to stop racing here we have to share everything we have to share the wealth with the share the information we have to This truly has to be open source in every conceivable way and we have to defuse this winner-take-all

Dynamic you know I think we need something like a Manhattan Project to figure out how to do that or not if not to figure out how to build AI but to figure out how to build it in a way that does not create an arms race that does not create an incentive to build unsafe AI which is almost certainly going to be easier than building safe Ai and if it would work out all these issues because it's it's not as what I think we are we're going to build this by default which is going to keep building more and more intelligent machines and it's going to be done in by everyone who can can do it you know I had to end it with each generation if we're even talk about Generations it's going to be it will have the tools made by the prior generation that are more powerful than you know anyone imagined a hundred years ago and I just think he's going to keep going like that did anybody actually make that quote about giving birth to the mechanical gods

but it was there was a scientist that actually was thinking and saying that but that was that was the content of what he was saying he's like where we're going to build the next species that is far more important than we are and that's a good thing it was actually I can go there with him and it actually it's the only the only caveat here is that

unless they're not conscious right likes it and let him know if he threw her for me that we can build things more intelligent than we are more powerful than we are and that can squash us and they might not be a might be unconscious right there like that might be nothing like the university go dark if it's quite dress right or or at least our corner of the universe could go Darkrai and yet these things will be immensely powerful if and this is just you know the jury's out on this but if there's nothing about intelligence scaling that demands that Consciousness come along for the ride then it's possible that I mean nobody thinks our machines are very few people would think our machines are that are intelligent are conscious right so at what point does Consciousness come online maybe it's possible to build super intelligence that unconscious it you know super powerful does everything better than we do you know It'll recognize your emotions better than than another person can

but then the lights are non-stress that's that's also I think possible ain't no maybe maybe it's not possible but that's that's the worst case scenario cuz the ethical Silver Lining and that speaking new outside of our self-interest now but just from a bird's-eye view the ethical Silver Lining to building these mechanical gods that are conscious is that yes okay we in fact if we have built something that is far wiser and has far but you know more beautiful experiences and deeper experiences of the universe and we can ever imagine and there's there's something that it's like to be that thing that's just you know it is a hexagon with god-like experience will that would be very good thing then we will have built it we will do something that was you know if you stand outside of our narrow self-interest

I can understand why he would say that he was just assuming what was scary about that particular talk cuz he was assuming that Consciousness comes along for the ride here and I don't know that that is a safe assumption that the really terrifying thing is if he if this is constantly improving itself and it's under the beck and call of a person then so it's either conscious when is it self write it acts as an individual thinking unit right or as a it anything outside of it it's a we're right either it is or it isn't and if it isn't aware and some person can manipulate it like imagine if it's getting 10,000 how many how many thousands of years in a week did you say if it was just it was just a million times faster than we are is 20000 years thousand years in a week gets better at even doing that right so it's real

programming itself so it's all exponential presumably it just it just imagine if you could keep it in the most restricted case you could just keep it at our level but just that I just passed her just a million times faster but if it did all these things I have going and kept every week was thousands of years but we're going to control it a person being in dialogue with something that had that lived the 20,000 years of human progress in a week and you come back you know on Monday and say listen by the thing I told you to do last Monday I want to change that up and this thing has made 20000 years of progress and if it's in a condition where it has accessed made so we're matching his thing you know it in a box your air-gapped from the internet and it's got nothing is got no way to get out right even that is an unstable situation but just imagine this emerging in

some way online right already being out in the wild rice Jose if it's in a financial market right

that's again this is what worries me most about this and what it is also interesting as it were intuitions here at the primary intuition that people have is no no that's just that's just not possible or not at all likely but if you're going to fight if you think it's impossible or even unlikely you have to find something wrong with the claim that intelligence is just a matter of information processing I don't know any scientific reason to doubt that claim at the moment and a very good reasons to believe that it's just undoubtable and

and you have to doubt that

we will continue to make progress in the design of intelligent machines and the one wants you that Ben has been it all this lattice just I'm right if if intelligence is just information processing and we we are going to continue to build

better and better information processors at a certain point we are going to build something that is superhuman

and

so what are some five years or 50 it's it's a it's the biggest change in human history I think we can imagine right so when I felt fine I keep finding myself in the presence of people who seem ways to my eye to be refusing to imagine it like they're treating it like the Y2K virus or whatever but it's just the Y2K bug where it just may or may not be an issue right like like it's a hypothetical like maybe it's just we're going to get there and it's just going to be it's either not going to happen or it's it's it's going to be trivial but you don't if you don't have an argument for why this isn't going to happen

then you have to have then then you're left with okay what's it going to be like to have

systems that are better than we are at everything in the into intellectual space

and

you know what will happen if that suddenly happens in one country and not in another right at some

it's a it's a man has enormous implications but it just sounds like science fiction I don't know what's carrier the idea that an artificial intelligence can emerge it's conscious it's aware of itself and then acts to present proof protect itself or the idea that a person a regular person like of today could be in control of essentially a God because if this thing continues to get smarter and smarter with every week and more more power and more and more potential more and more understanding thousands of years maybe just this one person regular person controlling that is almost more terrifying than creating a new life or or any group of people who don't have the the the total welfare of humanity as their Central concern and just imagine me what would what would China do with it now right what would we do what we do if we thought China you know by do or what Chinese company was on the verge of this thing what would it be rash

for us to do North Korea had it it would be the rational to Nuke them given what they say about their relationship of the rest of the world so it's totally rational that kind of power is it's so life-changing it so well with paradigm-shifting but if you took the one that's backed of what someone like Neil deGrasse Tyson would say is it

the only basis for fear is it yeah you don't give your super intelligent AI to the next Hitler right that's that's obviously bad but if we don't if we're not idiots and we just use it well we're fine and that I think is an intuition that is just that's just a failure to to unpack what is entailed by

again there's something like an intelligent explosion a process that once once you talking about something that is able to change itself and

you have to Garrett so what would it be like to guarantee level also we decide okay we're just not going to build anything that can make changes to its own source code you know any change due to software at a certain point is going to have to be run through a human brain and we're going to have veto power well is every person working on AI going to abide by that rules like what we agreed not to clone humans right but we going to stand by that agreement for the rest of human history and is he owned it is our agreement binding on China or Singapore and you know any other country that might think otherwise it's just we have it it's a free and at a certain point we're going to be you know close enough everyone's going to be close enough to making the final breakthrough that unless we we have some agreement about how to proceed if someone is going to get there first

that is a terrifying scenario of the future you know you cemented this last time you were here but it has extreme is this time you seen her to accelerate while you're going deep boil be wrong I'm on team yeah ideal deGrasse Tyson rice want you to know that good old Neal it wasn't defensive of the other side to I should say that you look into David Deutsch also thinks I'm wrong button he thinks I'm wrong because we will integrate ourselves with these machines episode that we've this will pick up extensions of ourselves and they can't help but be aligned with us because we will we will be connected to them that seems to be the only way we can all get along we have to merge and become one here but I just think there's no there's no deep reason why I even if we decided to do that right back at you in the US or or or in half the world one that's I think a reason to worry that even that could go Haywire

but there's no guarantee that someone else couldn't just build AI in a box maybe we can build a I such that we can merge our brains with it someone can also just build a fire in a box right and and that's

and then then you inherit all the other problems that people are saying we don't have to worry about if it was a good Coen Brothers movie it would be invented in the middle of the presidency of Donald Trump and so that that's when they I would go live and then a I would have to challenge Donald Trump let me know if I can insult contest today that's when this thing becomes so comically terrifying where is just just imagine Donald Trump being in a position to make a final decisions on topics like this for

the country that is act is going to do this almost certainly in the near-term inside should we have a Manhattan Project on this point Mister president

the idea that anything of value could be happening between his ears on this topic or a hundred others like it yeah I think his is now really inconceivable

and

so what what what price could we might we pay for that kind of inattention and self-satisfied in attention to

these kinds of issues will discuss this issue if if this is real and if this could go live in 50 years this is the issue was up Beyond repair before then and shut the power off if it keeps going yeah I know I think it is I think it is the issue but unfortunately it's the issue that doesn't it sounds like a goof. It's just found us you sound like a crackpot even worried about this issue sounds completely ridiculous. Might be with how it's sneaking in suddenly make it compelling mean just imagine I'm in chest doesn't do it because chess is so far from any Central human concern because imagine if your if your phone recognized your emotional state better than any in your best friend or your wife or anyone in your life and it did it reliably

right over your body like that movie with one of her that is not all that far off as nice a very discreet ability and you could do that you could do that without any any other ability in the phone really like it it doesn't it doesn't have to be to stand on the shoulders of any other kind of intelligent it could just you know each other so you have this could be you could do this with just brute force in the same way that you have a great chess player that doesn't necessarily understand that is playing chess you can have it easy a second facial recognize facial recognition of emotion and the and the tone of voice recognition of emotion and

the idea that it's going to it's going to be a very long time for computer to get better than people that I think is is very far-fetched I was thinking yeah I think you're right I was just thinking how strange it would be if you had like headphones on and your phone was in your pocket and you had rational conversations with your phone like your phone knew you better than you know you like I mean I don't know what to do I mean I don't think I was out of line she yelled at me I mean what should I say and I would listen to everyone get conversations with your friends exactly trained up on that just talked to you about it go listen to this what you got to do is apologize relax let's all move on to take accelerated and like you're talkin this little artificial maybe that's the first version of artificial intelligence so we suggest he's a liar let's give it a shot in like self-help guys in your phone right like a personal trainer in your phone how to talk to girls and of course my first break your fast can I cool yeah

literally like giving you information I'll be like step one that would like the Sony Walkman and when you have Walkman like a cassette player that was like what we have today where you fucking 30,000 song Lynn your phone or something I think I remember the first Walkman the first thing when I get back when I skied there was something called astral Tunes or something it was like like a car radio that you could just put on the in a pack on your chest they kept coming out with those hounds they would get smaller and smaller than that little little do we start telling you y'all Mantooth listen to keep replace me every year just let him stick me in your brain will be together all the time

don't give you good advice for Years bro let me and your brain and so you and this little artificial intelligence do you have a relationship over time and eventually it talks you into getting your head drilled and they screw it in there and your artificial intelligence is always powered by your central nervous system have you seen most of these movies like it did you see her and and no I didn't know and did you see those that was good I love that movie I like it I thought twice I was slow to realize how well they they did it I mean it was just out of the first time I saw it I thought I wasn't impressed and I watched it again and they really there's all the performance of

I forgot the actress's name Beckett vikander at Lisa vikander today nobody wanted to place a robot in ex machina is just fantastic but scary good yeah talk to you in anyting getting a little full on time there will be like 5 hours and 1/2 hours how many hours should a 4 and 1/2 hour pocket. We were ready to keep going to Jamie Hancock bottle I've looked up is there any sort of concept of like autism in a I like a spectrum of a I like there are dummy is scary things are the super autism there's no

across-the-board there's I think that super intelligence and motivation and goals are totally separable so you could have a super intelligent machine that is purposed toward a goal that just seems completely absurd and harmful and non common sense Economist at 8 the example that that Nick Bostrom uses in his in his book super intelligent which was great book and did more than for my thinking on this topic than any other source he talks about a paperclip maximizer you can't you could build a super intelligent paperclip maximizer now not that anyone would do this but the point is you can build a machine that was that was smarter than we are in every conceivable way but all it wants to do is produced paper clips right now that seems counterintuitive but there's no there's no reason it when you could dig deeply into this there's no reason why you couldn't build a superhuman paperclip maximizer just wants to turn everything in Little Italy the atoms in your body would be better

use a paper clips and so this is just at the point he's making is that super intelligence could be very counterintuitive is not necessarily going to inherit everything we find as you know commonsensical or or emotionally appropriate or wise or desirable it could be totally foreign totally trivial in some way and I'll focus on something that means nothing to us but means everything to it because of some Cork and how it's motivation system is structured and yet it can build the perfect nanotechnology that will allow it to build more paper clips right so

at least at least I don't think anyone can see why that's ruled out in advance and there's no reason why we would intentionally build that but the fear is we might build something that either is not

perfectly aligned with our goals and our common sense in our in our aspirations and that it could form some separate in instrumental goals to get what it wants wants that are totally incompatible with with Life as we know it and that's you know the examples of this are always cartoonish like you know how I met you on musk said you know if you built up super intelligent machine itola to reduce spam well then I could just kill all people and that's a great way to reduce spam right but see that the reason why that's why it's laughable but you can't assume the common sense won't be there unless we've built it right like you have to have anticipated all of this you can't eat if you say take me to the airport as fast as you can against is Bostrom you know it and you have a super intelligent the automatic car you know a self-driving car you'll just go get to the airport covered in vomit because it'll just it is just going to go as fast as it can go

it's a it's our intuitions about what it would mean to be super intelligent necessarily or are we have to correct for them so they are bad you're freaking me out and you can freaking me out for over an hour and a half freaked out that we did four and a half hours and I thought that would make you look someone up on three man I hope you're wrong about all that stuff doesn't it doesn't seem that I don't know what the heck that Rosie Jamie figure out how to live off the land that you are well prepared barely you're the ultimate bee doo doo. Pepper named easy me to call you when someone looking I'm bad at it I'll starve while star I won't be a vegetarian I'll come to your house for a beer me it might get ugly folks what's up Sam Harris is wrong thank you brother preciate it and your podcast tell people that you're waking up is my podcast and you can find out my website samharris.org

you can get his book one of his books if you go to audible.com Joe Wright get one alright thank you thank you ladies and gentlemen for 2 minutes of podcast and thank you to our sponsors thanks to food e p h o o d i e go share your food with Fox logo

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Adam Speedster briefly mentioned them that he's having adjusting to his new diet but he's a shit love that guy so fascinating

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