#1216 - Sir Roger Penrose

Dec 18, 2018

Sir Roger Penrose OM FRS is an English mathematical physicist, mathematician and philosopher of science. He is Emeritus Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics in the University of Oxford and Emeritus Fellow of Wadham College, Oxford.

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my guest today

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is Sir Rodger Penrose has a nicer next with names very important doctor in calm doctor he's an English mathematical physicist and mathematician and philosopher of Science and a brilliant man and we are very honored to have them on and it was a privilege to talk to him and it was really fantastic and very very very interesting conversation for me I hope you enjoy it as much as I did please give it up for sir Rodger Penrose

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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all right sir appreciate it it's fine my pleasure who brought you into this I think I'm a big fan of your work I have read much of your work I've seen many of your interviews and videos online and one of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about I find quite interesting is consciousness and your belief that Consciousness is not simply calculation but if there's something more to it and what what you think this more could possibly be from a scientific perspective which is unusual cuz a lot of people have some theories about Consciousness but they're usually crazy people like myself

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well I mean they're all conscious and so we may have to worry about it yeah but sent the ideas came by roundabout route I went to Cambridge to graduate work it was mathematics I was working on your mathematical subjects algebraic geometry but I thought you know we got three years old spend some of the time going to the talks that might be interesting so I went to three stalks particularly which had a big influence on me with a general Tennessee cosmetology wonderful talk with very subtle animated presentation knee and then there was a talk by Paul Dirac one of the founders of quantum mechanics

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and historic what he's completely wonderful talk to us as well been completely different everything was talking about the superposition principle in quantum mechanics so if you have a particle and it could be in one spot or it could be in another spot then you have all sorts of states where it can be in both places at once a day that's from a strange but you got to get used to that idea and he Illustrated with his feet a piece of chalk nothing is broken into two Illustrated could be in one spot or in the oven and my mind so the Wonders at that point I don't know what I was thinking about but I wasn't concentrating and a few minutes later he finished his description his explanation and I have some vague memory something about energy but I didn't understand what he said and I've been totally mystified by the citizens

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so I I suppose if I'd heard what he said he would have said something to calm me down and accept it in one way or another. It was it seemed to me this was a major issue how nice to have things don't behave according to what fun we can access Cricket balls and baseballs and things like that was uncalled Steen who talked on mathematical logic energy explain things like girls theorem and tearing machine steering machines being the mathematical question upon which modern computers are best for all computers basically and

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the thing about good or stamina used to have a colleague or novice undergraduate and we talked about logic you know how you could make this kind of mathematical systems which worked out logic and I heard about this to say that they were things in mathematics that you just couldn't prove and I didn't like that idea but when I heard the when I went to this course by Staind explain what it really says

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and what is this suppose you've got a method of proving things in mathematics and when I say things I mean things with numbers that one famous example us famous lost mr. Eko Park injection which isn't yet proved that they never even number bigger than 2 as the sum of two prime numbers this is an example of a thing is just to the mathematical things about numbers which you can see what they mean but it may be very difficult to see whether it's true or untrue about the idea of mathematics you go to System of methods of proof and the key thing about these methods of proof is that you can have a computer check whether you've done it right tell you these rules you know they could be adding in base the same as DNA and things like that and you

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if you give your used to say to the computer and see whether it can be proven you say maybe I got a proof and this follows the steps and you give it to the computer and it says yep you've done it right it's true or maybe it will say you've done it right and it's not true or it may not saying I just go on forever but these are the outcomes and the point about it is that if you believe that these procedures do give you a proof and otherwise that if the algorithm says yeah it's true then you believe it is true because you've understood the older rules he looked at the first one to eat that's okay that's great and you go all the way down and as long as you're convinced all those rules work and if it says yes that's something you believe okay

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a very specific sentence a statement which is a number thing like like me that much less their my something to think about numbers which

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what show is if you trust this algorithm for proving mathematical things then you can see by the way it's constructed it's true but you can also say by the way it's constructed that it cannot be proved by this procedure

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now this is amazing to me because it tells me that okay

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you cannot formalize your understanding and ask him what you can put on a computer and see on the basis of the same understanding that allows you to trust the rules that it's true but that is not actually derivable by the rules if you see it's true by virtue of your belief in the rules on this to me was amazing and I thought you know what's understanding what does it mean is it something following rules is an algorithm with a smile that says it's not enough because whatever it was they would be something that you can still see his true even though you don't get it through the outgrown that you had in the first place

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so this is a hell of a lot of things about this to wish people argue about intimacy is it was pretty convincing to me that this shows that we don't think when we understand something what's going on I has is not an algorithm it's not following rules it's something else if something that requires our conscious appreciation of what we are thinking about I'm thinking is a conscious thing and understanding is a conscious activity so I formed the view that conscious activities whatever they are not just that kind of thing but you know when playing music or Falling in Love or Whatever these things might be complications like to make myself as a scientist and I think that was going in on our heads is according to the laws of physics and these laws of physics pretty good

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well in the outside world and so I believe that the loss that work in our heads are the same as those laws so I began to think about it well what about Newton's mechanics you put that on a computer what about Einstein's special relativity you could do that what about Maxwell's wonderful equations which tell you how electricity and magnetism operate Enlighten these things that so far as this beautiful set of equations that Maxwell produced you can put that on the computer you may have to worry about it depend on continuous numbers rather this great things but I don't think that's the answer then I felt what about general relativity theory of gravity will you wait for me and I would lie go this detector which is to take kids black hole spiraling into each other from distant galaxies on how do we know that those signals are black holes by 12

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directions people put this thing on algorithm and you know what those signals look like so Einstein's general relativity sure you can put them on the computer as well as the famous equation of Schrodinger which tells you how Quantum State evolves

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put that on the computer to it's difficult in many ways is many more parameters you have to worry about but it's just as computable as he's other things

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well you see I didn't remember to Rex lecture you see and how it is that these things that look in the quantum world don't seem to work at the level of classical big things depends on this process of measurement in quantum mechanics and the measurement process is something you learn how to do but it's not the Schrodinger equation his something else and Sheridan himself was very intrigued by this fact that his own equation cuz you don't sense and the famous Schrodinger's cat where he produces a situation in which the cat would be dead than alive at the same time he produced that thing example to demonstrate that roughly speaking his equation gives you nonsense under the circumstances so there's something else and something else goes beyond our kind of quantum mechanics and it tells

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what happens when the quantum State makes a decision between doesn't follow the shredding place that's one thing or the other everybody knows that the mechanics but I think it's in your lot to do something different but that didn't make sense to me and so I had the view that okay there is a big gap in our understanding and if there's something in the world which isn't something you could put on a computer that's where it is so they view I've held that for a long time and that there's something non computable something Beyond computation involved in our understandings of things to that serve you a hell for ages I didn't do much with it I just hold of you until about a radio talk between Marvin Minsky and Edgewood Fred Cannon there were explaining about what computers can do and they were talking about okay you have a computer to computer stalking to each other over there and you woke up the room

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and the time you walked out the room to the computers they have confused communicate communicate with each other more thoughts than the human race ever has. I see where you're coming from but I don't think that's what's happening in in human communication human understanding is something different from what computers do in Consciousness is the key that Consciousness is something different from computation so I can tell that to you but then when I had this talk by men skin infection comes time in a long time in the future when I'm retired this is some while back I say and I felt well made this gives you the focus until I wrote this book called The Emperor's New mind which is supposed to be saying well you know everybody seems to be thinking one thing but

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the theme of that story which was the basis of the book so I say okay maybe lots of people think that what we doing this confusing about if you stand back and you say well no there's something else going on

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that was the basis of my thoughts about consciousness

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but I wrote this book thinking that by the time I got to the end of the book The Secret about physics and Mathematics and things like that but I was really aiming for this thing about what's going on in conscious thinking and I thought well and so on and by the time I get to the end of the book know pretty well what it could be I didn't and I just type it off rather something a little bit unbelievable and it was said that this book would stimulate young people to get interested in science and that's something that it was fine

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and when the book was published on kids let's have some older people who had the time to read my book okay well that was a little disappointing I'm glad the old retired people like my book but the other thing was I got a letter from the Stuart hameroff add this letter said more or less I think you don't appreciate that there's something else going I'm not neurons I mean the neurons I can see you couldn't isolate the quantum effect so that you get the what's going to environmental decoherence what happened and you get no way of keeping the quantum state to the level that you need in this picture so I realize I didn't have it but Stuart hameroff pointed out to me these little things called microtubules and he'd built up a theory that microtubules are absolutely fundamental the Consciousness he had his own reasons for believing that I never heard of him at that time but then I check top you'll get lost

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Lexus from people who may be that make sense sometimes two letters and this one I thought well this is another one like just the kind of thing that could well be supporting the kind of level of quantum mechanics up to a level where you you could expect the

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the quantum states of the collapse that's the terminology people using phone with the microtubules they're inside brain neurons they are indeed has a recent discovery federal tax lien lots of celsius if people often complain in your liver to and I'm just your brain so why isn't your liver conscious know that but it has to do with the organization of them and the nature of them the particular kind of microtubules how to how to arrange which is different in the brain how about how does it vary in the brain compared to other cells I think one big difference so I'm going upstairs and besides there's so much are two kinds of my car to bills of a Lexus and the bee lattice and the a lot this one's other very symmetrical wants her tubes and and they look the same all the way around the corner very beautiful arrangement of these proteins go to make a very nice arrangement which is connected with Fibonacci numbers and things like that so they looked like for a comes but they were Powerball and taper off

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thing is in the brain I think most of microtubules will probably want to go to be like this once and they don't have so much symmetry they've got sort of seemed on the one side and they're very important in transporting substances around cells and so on and so the idea is it in the brain they're organized differently and they're probably the ones that are important of a license once which is a very symmetrical ones and for a long time people couldn't see the difference cuz you look very similar and they may well be the ones that have to be in pyramidal cells as a particular kind of cell

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so that one of the things that interested me a lot that's how it is that not all parts of the brain of the same in this respect to see you got the cerebrum this is the part of the top down the middle and let me see Brian is a sport you know me see with a convolutions in the in the NFL right underneath them but she looks more like a ball full of something and the cerebellum missed in the argument about this but it seems to be that is completely unconscious and it has comfortable number of neurons are more connections between neurons in the cerebrum and it's what takes control and maybe when you're driving your car and you're thinking about something else and you you don't you're not thinking what you're doing

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because it's on conscious and the unconscious control. Pianist who is very expert and move the thing goes around and plays an open a little finger. Penis doesn't think while I'm going to move that muscle this way on this phone that way and so on and is it so controlled unconsciously in a lot of this unconscious control is done somewhere else in the cerebellum when you when you get really scaled So Listen to Me OK Google different kinds of structures different could well be that these pyramidal cells which have a particular organization of microtubules are the ones that wear that Consciousness is really coming to an organized differently so so just how many neurons how many connections are there because there are more in the cerebellum so it's not that it's any of do they know this from observing the brain through fmri or something like that

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in particular activities like I don't know I would imagine probably just examining it when dead people in looking at Springs and kind of estimate how many neurons are on it right but how would they know what which part partial considering I don't know that they do know that when I guess there was a bit of an argument but it seems that actions that's that I carry. By the cerebellum you don't know what you doing but I mean it's very carefully about whether we took the ball control of what you doing overall control is probably done with the cerebrum but the cerebellum is the detailed motions how the fingers move and all that kind of thing and then you make sure that if you think's going to hit the ball down down the line

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how to recognize a controller of an unconscious procedure we don't totally understand but we know that there's different parts of the brain that responsible for different activities and some activities don't seem to be conscious yes yes it's probably the case maybe I should make a statement I don't really know but sadly there are lots of different parts of the cerebrum which maybe we should maybe not conscious to so I'm not saying that the whole thing is capable of being conscious since they seem to be differences in different parts but are you convinced that microtubules are responsible for Consciousness or it's a primary Theory I think there's a

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one of the best candidates are you see I don't think it's only my could you identify I'm not sure what to do it how much to you and misses you certain things to my could you blow 6 evening important as the feeling I guess I need to work on trying to find what anesthetic gases using important important ways you can tell things about conscious and most of it you, that's just hearsay and funny versus but one of the important ways you can tell something about Consciousness is what turns it off in the reversible way and see what job do anesthesiologist he puts people to sleep well I think it would complain if I say putting it to sleep because under anesthetic is actually different Riley but you make an unconscious and the reverse of a way you want to make sure you think you can wake him up again and it's obviously very skills thing but I guess a lot of his colleagues might be school

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doing it but don't be off the questions about whether I actually doing from the point to do with a biology in the physics and tell him just do it was really interested in that question it's partly I think things like, mitosis cell division and he was very struck by the way that they chromosomes alive lineup and that this eases my could you build such putting them and they're really big paws and and and in the structure of cells and how they how they behave in someone

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but why their Consciousness well I guess it was an experience with with putting people under anesthetics and the fact that they are gases which put you to sleep and then again I should say to sleep but run it put you on to understand very unconnected different kinds of things but yet they still seem to have the same effect on to understand what it is that they affect his way to know that's a lot of his interests to do with that

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so just by putting someone unconscious and registering what parts of the brain are no longer active this is what they're using sort of reverse engineer by turning those parts on that's what enables Consciousness is this the simplification if this becomes as a subject it's very it's it's very susceptible to woo right indeed it gets it's one of those weird ones where people want to start talking about souls and Universal Consciousness and they start it gets its in Lucky area conference isn't he's very broad-minded he has people all sorts of different things like the ones you mentioned it's not necessarily his view but he likes to get a broad perspective

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nevermind it than he is on his message I am too I'm very skeptical because I just I understand the inclination that people have to lean towards the woo that it's very fun it's for whatever reason people are inclined to to lean towards what the bleep do we know oh yes I did that kind of stuff it's just the movie was made by Cult leader and it gets a little squirrely you're absolutely right yeah it was I as I say I was just thinking you were a lot of people that I know they were like yourself we're worried but it's this is something that everyone contemplates like what makes you conscious what is the soul is it a real thing what is what is your Consciousness is it simply just your own biology trying to calculate your environment and looking out for its best interest in trying to procreate and move forward with

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the genes that it has or is it something almost mystical or far more complicated maybe even instead of the word mystical might be tainted then something far more complex and we're currently able to understand perception of the external world yeah it's just think abstractly and always thinks it's chilly different from where baseball runs through the air and what what makes it spin in different than every other conscious animal

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I'm not so sure about that though I think the difference isn't that big real I mean okay to a degree I mean some kind of degree is a huge difference in degree I'd agree with that but whether it's a difference in kind I'm not at all sure you know you watch these nature movies and see what about elephants and this was about how the elephants were there was a there was led by a female elephant B I don't remember what it was and they went to a place where the leader of the elephant herd her sister died at the bones and bows with their bums anyway and pick them up and

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rest of my moving around and then they went back to doing to that the route they want to go through all that was going on which is not just some machine yet like a robot there's some some feelings that I can appreciate

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another one I remember was one movies African hunting dogs and the dogs to go across the river and then it got to the point that slow down and make my way to get across these hunting dogs you can see them and they would go along towards this place and then they would break into the house of them would go one way towards the end they will hide just the river starts and the other choice the right there and then the other ones with ponds on them I mean there's something there which is you know I've been working it out between themselves how to do a communication of some kind yes and I think there's what will you call understanding okay

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dividing line and it's it's it's pretty continuous behavior and they do seem to have not just verbal but nonverbal communication they seem to have some understanding of what the task is and what their roles are in the task and the even though there's not as many variables maybe a human life there definitely seems to be a conscious awareness of first of all through their position in the hierarchy of the tribe of the the pack rather sing but also their what their objective is is it is not a selfish objective it's a group of dective and they they operate as a group and they do move like those African dogs you were talking about on this a lot of indication that

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what's up need Simpson Amazon some things and dolphins you we know about them that I smell quite $5 how much have you started octopi they're fascinating this a new book about them which I haven't gotten the chance to read it yet I want to read it I think they're they're highly intelligent my friend Remi Warren was doing a television show called apex predator we studied though the way different animals hunted and he started studying the way octopus and cuttlefish and all these different different octopi and what the way they could adapt to their environment by changing their actual not just a look but the texture of their skin instantaneously and how this is not really understood how they not only how they do it but how they know what they're what's below them what their copying that they somehow

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another can figure out how to blend in almost perfectly with their environment it's amazing isn't it also can open jars and they can climb out of Tanks there was one guy had a he had a camera on his tank because he had two tanks if and one of them had very expensive tropical fish in the other one had his octopus and he was trying to figure out what was happening to his expensive tropical fish they put a camera on it and the octopus was climbing out of the tank walking across the ground climbing into the other tank killing one of the fish eating it and then going back into his tank Chevy LS1 I saw about dr. I think I heard the description of a registered I think I read it about the same experiments on testing the intelligence of octopus is so it has a little thing that I just had to pull a chain and then open the door and get food out and this octopus was thinking but I'm going to find out where this thing until

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people in their white coats to take a minute to figure this out in some sort of paper that you had to display in front of scientist if you were here like you're trying to figure out like what do you think it is like what what do you think Consciousness is I think I just think that this issue of having some kind of quantum state which preserves itself up to a certain level and the microtubules at least suggested something where you could isolate them from the outside and the symmetry of these things is important and their other structures is I suspect it's not just microtubules I suspect their classrooms

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these are molecules which inhabit the synapses and you know that you have these pentagons and hexagons and of each vertex you got a proteins coded triskelion I'm enjoying themselves along the edges of the pattern of a soccer ball up and it's just it's just a substance made of these proteins

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I don't know but that the symmetry has a key role as a thing called the Young Taylor effect in quantum mechanics which tells you that when you have a body symmetrical structure like that then there can be a big gap between the lowest energy level and the next one in that convey information in this lowest energy level which can be shielded from the higher energy levels so this is just a suggestion that some kind of quantum phenomena news going on in the series way on this about to understand that if you're going to build the brain when is just sold a little ass together the connections you say what are you doing having this thing with all the chemicals transfer information needed by the system and it's all tied up with these classrooms that are on inside two skeleton stock shares which microtubules that I wanted the main constituents

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I don't know if it's about time and I'm sure so it seems like there is a bunch of different factors there's the biological understanding of the brain itself and then there's the understanding of the the actual nature of cells and of reality itself that this is being more illuminated by science with every new discovery and we're getting a better understanding deeper and deeper as to the very nature of matter and of of the of the structures themselves I think it is getting deep into the physical world how many biology is one side of it coming as an outsider I get struck by so few things I mean quite familiar with the fact that the right side of the cerebrum controls the left hand in the left and the right time but then you look at this and it's not just that what about the soles of your feet right at the top what about your eyes they the signals garage the back

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how to give us construction you your guns the worst possible place there must be a reason and the cerebellum is different about them it's the left side controls the left side and the right side the right side that is something going on which involves the Signal's getting having to cross each other or whatever it is I don't know what we'd like to think that there's a reason but then we look at other biological life-forms and they look kind of preposterous like a platypus friends that I know what is that is that okay experiment is that a prototype that just ran wild lecture so yeah I guess the second is that I don't know if I specifically

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I selected from from the rest of the day so you got sort of strange animals in Australia and New Zealand where a lot of isolation from from the rest of the Eeveelutions so they did their own thing they're marsupials that yeah yeah just in the phrase Quantum is another one that's fraught with Wu and do some people like Deepak Chopra and the like they love to use that word because as soon as you use that word you can kind of get away with almost anything afterwards I suggest I have to say I have

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quantum mechanics is a strange thing and I thought you're Siri doesn't make any sense that's nothing against it and it said crazy things about experiments so just the fact is it's crazy well it's very very difficult to understand even for people who study it so for someone like myself when I'm trying to pay attention to this without the vote in my entire life to it and it gets its becomes a big problem cuz I did two of my books are trying to explain that there are actually two mysteries in Corona

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canex and they get muffled one of them is the whole subject is pretty crazy yes

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but it's coherent and it makes sense and if you study it properly and you said okay but not make sense things like on local effects where you can have two things not thousands of kilometers apart and you can see these quantum entanglement effects so they got us that they still in some sense connected with each other. Which is pretty amazing that's baffling but that's part of a comprehensive a product is muddied up because there's the other part which has to do with his collapse of the wave function and stands quantum mechanics really does make sense but people get the model in my you think because this doesn't make sense and doesn't in my lights are open Crazy into anything crazy is up for grabs but it seems to me that the things which you're crazy and they do hang together or the theory wax you understand that that's fine but the things which involve the collapse of the wave function

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that's not fine because we don't have the right Theory yet that's why it doesn't make logical sense because it's not the right there yet that's my view I mean I'm in minority and saying this most people who study the foundations of quantum mechanics a while we haven't got the right interpretation or yet we may have to rethink what it means and someone they don't think well maybe it's not quite right maybe there's something when this affects get big enough something else comes in and we need we need a new inside to new Theory so that's what I think now and something like super position where something can be both still and in motion at the same time as soon as you say that to the common person like myself my brain glaze over and my eyebrows raised up and I go okay what is your talk about entanglement things hundreds of thousands of kilometers apart that are somehow or another interacting with each other in a way that we don't totally understand or we don't have a theory that absolutely explains

► 00:46:10

in a concrete way as long as you don't get to the measurement measurement is pretty well understood but the measurement is measurement is not me, is when you come to the measurement make a measurement over here and the measurement over there and they can be well by now it's awesome, the record was only a hundred and forty-three or something a little while ago it's a it's a long time long distance but this hardly any movement of material to the things that she in the scheme I have which involves the collapse of the wave function involves certain amount of displacement of mass know if it's just photons that's light musics parents tend to be just light then there's no Mass displacement in the state and so sure what kind of mechanic says is fine by me okay it is hard to get your mind around and I said that but it's logical

► 00:47:10

but when you worry about the measurement issue in the collapse of the wave function and parole shorting I was very upset by this white right now when you discuss Consciousness and the Mystery of Consciousness and then you

► 00:47:28

take into account some of these characteristics that are being displayed in the quantum world do you think that perhaps some of them are interchangeable or or similar to Consciousness itself that there is some sort of a connection that human beings share and some some strange unique and miss or not not understood way yet to be careful about these things sometimes do what even use bore who is one of the founders of these ideas and philosophy of God mechanics complementarity it's misleading I that way you can see analogies between things with

► 00:48:21

I don't see myself but that should be taken much further than that but maybe there's more there but you're open to the possibility should new information be yeah yeah I mean if it comes to things like you know when people talk about Quantum states can spread to smile lines going to stretch the long distances is how I tell these people raised questions like that I don't think so myself I think that's that's pretty far-fetched but you could it be that there is some

► 00:48:59

Quantum state which is shared between the different individuals it's hard to see that could be unless they will make sure that I don't see how that could happen so I'm not a fan of trying to use quantum ideas so it's directly and save human behavior or something I think the you know it doesn't I was just a pretty far-fetched partly because the sort of mathematics you use in Collier County is very specific to quantum mechanics and doesn't really apply to next coffee behaviorist all I can say is this something that is that your ex asked about most often

► 00:49:46

you mean in my research all together or just people like myself my interests are because I had this to sound but it's not what I do mainly right main researches is is on cosmology

► 00:50:20

well think it is a area code to Superior boat Nursery going to bed but it's meant to be foundational Quantum a cat Foundation of physics people paid attention to is in in general relativity and black holes what a black hole is why we have the idea that they aren't all that sort of thing on that to my front cosmology as a whole is one of the most terrifying Concepts to me cuz I just when I start thinking about the size and scale of everything I get to a certain point and my brain just shuts off there's not enough juice

► 00:51:03

well it's pretty huge what is the fastest thing on the pretty huge scale but it's like so many things to see it looks of mind-boggling at first and then when you get used to the idea until play around with the ideas and maybe forget how many bowling it should be I was watching a documentary on supermassive black holes and they were discussing how the size of the dishes I don't know if this is still affect the current theory this documentary is a few years old but they were saying that the there's a supermassive black hole inside of every Galaxy that's one half of 1% of the mass of the entire galaxy and that date there's one of the series was that inside the supermassive black holes could be an entirely different Universe with hundreds of billions of galaxies each with their own black holes and and then it's infant have a fairly an idea which I think the mainstream does still regarded as a bit crazy but not like that I don't think you're going to have much fun inside a black hole

► 00:52:02

nobody's in there I don't know which way you could have a really big black hole in this a lot of time in there a really big one if you if you were in the special if you could you can have a few parties before you say yes but I'm not sure I recommend it

► 00:52:21

yeah I'm in a black hole is a remarkable enough and that thing I did which was in 1964 in the publishing 65 wishes show black hoes by music until dawn is it wasn't around to that time that the black hole's gravitational collapse play August on Versailles KY Indian scientist when he was not quite twenty I think I got a rose 19 or 20 and he was going to England to study Physics astronomy it so I know he works on this problem about what hole is white dwarfs upon is it is very nice of stars the companion of serious serious is a white dwarf and he was doing calculations define. Whether they the interior is a very particular structure

► 00:53:21

which is about to get less than one and a half times the Sun's mass they wouldn't be able to hold themselves apart and so they would collapse and that he didn't speculate on what happened to just one is less there's some very modest, he made his one we are left speculating on possibilities or something but then that was his friend about 1930 and much later just before the War II mobile 99 that was a paper by Oppenheimer atomic bomb Fame and Snyder which of the student of his offense Ida and they produced in Mahwah which was a solution of the Einstein equations which describes

► 00:54:14

cloud of dust which collapses and becomes what we not called a black hole did this was the first clear picture of collapse to a black hole star in that picture they made two huge assumptions but one of them is us a material that means it didn't have any pressure until you can imagine when it gets close to it so if it might push away if it's pressure and anyway but this is just dust that was one thing but more important that the model was exactly symmetrical so it was just in the dust particles would be focused right into Central Point and so it's not so hard to believe that you get a singularity where the density goes infinite the covers just go in for gnats in your equations go crazy so at that point when the dust reaches the Middle Point okay not so surprising because it's a very contrived situation so I think a lot of people thought well. We shouldn't take

► 00:55:14

seriously they are they may want sure but then there was a paper by two Russians cook flat sheets and Kalashnikov seem to have proved that you didn't get singularities in the general case it somehow it was swirl around and switch out again so that was a possibility

► 00:55:33

and then there was this discovery I think he 1962 when moss & Schmidt's Dutch astronomer I don't remember but he observed became what we call the first Quasar so this was an object which was radiating an awful amount of energy far more than the Galaxy but it seemed to be a very small thing it couldn't be much bigger than the size of the solar system if you can that big because it variations in brightness indicated that the speed of light size of it had to be comfortable with variations in in

► 00:56:19

and brightness came about so it seems to be an object that was enormously analgesics producing more energy with such a degree that it must be fairly small and this raises the question of whether it was small enough to be what we not call a black hole another way to say it is a thing for the schwarzschild radius Trump shelters that manufactures discover the solutions of Einstein's equations which describe this article body but he didn't extrapolated in woods to what's Corpus Horizon we close our eyes and not used to be called the shortage of Singularity and people began to realize that it wasn't really a singularity it's more something you could imagine falling through

► 00:57:05

I guess it was the Metra first make that clear but I'll make him pay attention but that was the idea of a black hole

► 00:57:18

having some black hole in the middle of them and I remember John Wheeler was at Princeton then very distinguished scientist and he got way too wide to buy these things need talk to me and you are right about in do we believe is there a singer dies in the middle Dewey believe this shit Saint Cloud golf at they've been so swell roundabout side what are we supposed to think so I started thinking about this problem and since that time

► 00:57:43

well you see other people when you want to solve the Einstein equations you make a lot of assumptions and it's just natural light like they opened him it's not a very special properties and then you can maybe solve the equations I don't even very very special cases and the computers weren't powerful enough to tell you very much about what happened so I started thinking about this problem and realizing that I touch to think about it in a different way and saw used ideas which bar ideas from topology and things like that to show that there had to be a singularity in the middle provided it to collapse it reached a certain point of no return

► 00:58:24

I guess it to get some idea of I don't know it's just not to mislead there is a mathematical theorem Clover the hairy dog pheromone hairy dog fear yes jocular terminology but you think of something which is topological is fear that means you see you imagine the dog shape but you could soda movies around with a piece of plasticine until it look like a sphere it doesn't have holes in it okay forget about this digestive system you see nothing about the surface outside the problem is all the way around and the theorem says it's got to be somewhere where the head doesn't like that

► 00:59:04

and you try not to say that's got a good point where we love hair makes a kind of singular point so it's a bit like that you have no idea where the singularity is but you know from General topological reasons that this got to be one somewhere and that makes it sort of argument that. Produced and

► 00:59:26

I guess a lot of people because of the trouble because I never seen this kind of argument and lot of people picked up on its own particular Stephen Hawking and it became for a while so many people working on it I guess it's not so popular now because they run out of Tears

► 00:59:45

SSD idea of a singularity is when you see something like a a quasar or above the dededo center of a a Galaxy and we were talking about a black hole when you say a singularity what it what exactly are you do you mean by that expectation is that you have a place like in the middle of the day off and I miss my that dust cloud that a point there where the density becomes infinite and so the curvature of space-time becomes infinite do you have a place where the equations run away and they go to infinity and you say well something's going wrong

► 01:00:28

but maybe initially it was in this very symmetrical cases but but you could show by these indirect arguments that somewhere somebody's got to go wrong Yukon continue the equations of Einstein and they got stuck front of the place where they going tonight to detail happens if they just say that something goes wrong and that's what we call a single and if a black hole is larger or smaller The Singularity remains constant remains in in there it's in there but it's not measurable in terms of its actual size that way you can have your size very well cuz its eyes that's an intriguing question you might say the size is going 2-0 original on Auburn Avenue is the wrong point of view but that's not going to ask something about the structure of these things you can say

► 01:01:28

things the singularities in all the time by the black holes are not all the same. Have the same this one of those strange things about black holes is that if you let them settle down and they're not all the same to begin but there's not many different things that can settle into they can have rotation they can have a 7 mass and the masked translates into the size of a dime and you've also got rotation so they can rotate trucks show found the Australian who first produced the solution for a rotating black hole rotating yes a rotating one but then you see that remarkable thing is that's what they settle down to so they're good they're on this which tell you that the general black hole with you very complicated fairly rapidly will settle down and become one of these Cur Solutions the rotating black hole I remember when I first saw that documentary that I saw that the one they were discussing the

► 01:02:28

shape of these galaxies in the center of it had this supermassive black hole that was slowly devouring the Galaxy it is an unbelievably beautiful yet simultaneously terrifying idea is that there's this infinite power in the center of infinite Mass that's absorbing slowly but surely everything around it so it's not infinite Mouse the mouse is quite well defined and that's not the infinite but yeah I was a good question I mean if you wait forever how much of the mess actually get swallowed by the black hole she think the picture so they're not just the one Galaxy but it costs you see our galaxy and we are on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy and I don't know how long with many sometime in the future has the black holes will probably spiral into each other and I'll be one big one so it's the final mask but in

► 01:03:28

infinite density and that this point which weather is speculating that this could possibly in the center of the supermassive black hole gun if you could go through that there would be another Universe where is the city of nice romantic. Makes a nice and what's interesting that we try to make things more complicated than they are because they're so complicated as it is dark matter for instance hit it boggles the mind that we don't really totally understand what ninety-plus percent that's a good question. And what is that stuff you want me to tell you my theory yes please

► 01:04:17

in about 15 years ago I must have years of passing by I can't remember how long ago now so I had this idea

► 01:04:26

you see the universe as a whole is expanding no

► 01:04:34

early in the century of don't ask me that again and some people by observing super not super novice on exposing sauce very very far away they found out that the universe is actually accelerating and its expansion and some people found this very mysterious on the other hand it's in all the cosmology books because there is that expectation is he in 1959 sound produced is general theory in 1917 he introduced What's called the cosmological constant so you think of that it was cool and that you think of a v-shaped turned upside down because at that time people went there was some indication the universe was expanding but not very clear and Einstein

► 01:05:30

I guess maybe didn't know or believe it's in this if the cabals observations haven't yet come to make a convincing case of the expansion still thought well maybe the universe is static it's kind of philosophically nice to think that is sitting there all the time and he couldn't make it do that so he had to introduce this time and he did that and then not much longer after this trouble showed that the Universe does seem to be expanding and Einstein regarded this time to time as his biggest blunder which is an RNA because it turns out that this time is probably the explanation for the expansion of the universe we know see that's what what people call Dark Energy I don't like the term very much cuz it's none of the dark Noah proper energy in any clearer sense but still felt about us

► 01:06:30

right what's up it's a it's an odd term yes I think so because of the cosmological constant which as far as we can tell it it's completely consistent with the alterations it's a positive number very small but seems to be producing this expansion and I'm quite happy with that Viewpoint because it leads to a picture which I've been trying to plug for a while now maybe after 15 years I can't remember

► 01:07:08

the idea is hard to explain but let me try

► 01:07:13

it came about because I was worrying about the remote future and I was thinking okay when these black holes around they swallowed up all the stars and they just sitting around what's the most next exciting thing happening with the hulking evaporation they're going to do radiate away Stephen Hawking showed that black holes at this temperature extremely cold how many of these enormous ones are absurdly called much colder than he made on the Earth

► 01:07:42

and when the universe expands and expands expands it gets colder than black holes until there's black holes get become the haunting of things around and very very slowly this Hawking radiation I'm not carries energy and so they shrink shrink shrink and finally they disappear with a pop I said pop is probably a pretty big explosion that 10 not that big from the cosmological answer physical scale so they disappear the octopus that's really boring so this was the picture I thought of being rather depressed by thinking that starts but fate of all the interesting things happening I'll send it to fight this is unbelievably boring final state

► 01:08:35

okay this is an emotional argument but give me a bit of leeway so I began to think well it's not going to be because we're not be around as it'll be around will be photons and it's pretty House Bar Photon for two very good reasons one is it probably doesn't have conscious experience is not answering so but the other is more of the signs point that they don't measure time because a photon has no mess it travels at the speed of light and what the way relativity works it means that talks stop if you like if it had experiences it with the moment of its creation would be one moment and the next moment would be Infinity

► 01:09:20

I said they just zipper to Infinity it without noticing thing I've been doing work on this kind of thing thinking more about gravitational radiation and how you measure Tennessee and things like that it was a very useful picture to squash down Infinity

► 01:09:37

useful thing to think about here if you seen these pictures by the Dutch artist m c Escher Circle in its in this very famous one with angels and Devils interlocking and they get old cries out to the edge like what you going to think about is it this is a kind of geometry called hyperbolic geometry and the angels and devils live in that geometry and the ones close to the edge think they're the same size and same shape as the ones in the middle are you going to do and so the idea is

► 01:10:12

if you look at it from the angels and that was part of you that's Infinity that boundary but for my part of you we can look at it and we have what's called a conformal map for my map what that means is that little shapes are quite consistently drawn. They can be big or small and you don't care about where the big or the small as long as the shapes small shapes are accurate or angles if you like her correctly drone that's what's called a conformal map and that can form a map describes Infinity how you can do the same thing to the universe to do it I'm you can imagine hitting them where this remote future you can squash it down just like in the air show a picture to a finite boundary and as far as the things with no Mass they don't have a way of measuring how big are small as his the Maxwell equations don't know if the scale Thedacare I stuck with just as well for smaller so big and you can stretch it in some place and squash

► 01:11:12

somewhere else as long as the stretching and squashing is isotropic so just as much one way as the other way which means more less that you keep when I go to the light cones there that's not going to details here but it means that that if you have

► 01:11:27

things without mess but most particularly the photons then that boundary is just like anywhere else and the photos go zipping up to it and so you might think they could have somewhere to go okay Melissa you don't have to think that but that was the point of view I had the photons need that need somebody to enter in a way but then where does it go the other picture which is the opposite then there's the Big Bang know you could do a similar soda trick there which is stretching it out and making it into a boundary and that can be done to these ideas for long time and the standard cosmology models you can do it with

► 01:12:08

but the more complications cosmology models you might have on a mission for a complicated Big Bang the gentle ones don't have like kind of tool do you need to condition which tells you that the Big Bang was a very special kind but it was it's all tied up with this thing called the second law of Thermodynamics and there's no ties together with his ex in a way which. You don't have time to talk about but it seemed to me a really good idea to have the condition on the Big Bang that you could continue it in the same way I should say the idea of doing this was a former student of mine called to his colleague of mine and he used this is continuous informal continuationism is a nice way of saying what the condition is on the Big Bang to give you what you want

► 01:12:56

but that's a huge condition but it nevertheless it's what stops iuniverse off in in a very special states which is what we live off of Lenox nice not to have to get going anyway if you want to worry about that anyway the point was that it looks as though it's a good condition on the Big Bang that it also should be conformed Ali I like a boundary which if you had no mess you wouldn't notice it okay you got particles with mass running around near the Big Bang but as you get closer and closer and closer to the energy goes up the temperature goes Zune exhuming up the zipping around at such a speed that the energy of their motion is much bigger than the equals mc squared mess Einsteins

► 01:13:46

mass and the energy in the mass is a certain amount but when they get so hot you can forget about the mess so they like photons behave like particles without mass and so they're just interested in the Conformity on the tree to the crazy idea I had not just only stretch out the Big Bang he's washed on the Infinity but maybe our big bang was a squash done Infiniti of a previous jeon so I'm saying sorry on the game as a big bang and did not with this exponential expansion there was another one before us they will be another one ostras there was another one before that so on so it's a picture in constant expansion to the point where there's no more energy and then somehow or another of big bang comes out of that a yes that's right but that's the tricky part that people have trouble accepted that the Big Bang was an event

► 01:14:45

there's no pretty World Series that are attractive

► 01:14:52

I would say nothing terribly popular they're sending ideas which say you can continue into the before the Big Bang. And highs and what do they think that was such things in common with my mother but it's not quite the same and you see it still is he there wasn't it Right theory this Alexander Friedman it was a Russian many medical physicist need to do syphilis cause problems and one of these was a big bang it expands and contracts again that doesn't join onto a nice smooth Big Bang the next one so you have trouble with us most but still people take these things seriously just like that

► 01:15:51

so these are things going to be nice to think about my own view is that they don't take into account that the black hole problem which is that gets rid of that because the black holes on the back right away by hooking evaporation and I used to give talks about this feeling quite happy nobody would ever prove it wrong so I can go until I wasn't happy with that I thought maybe you could see signal is coming through as I had one idea about that but more recently this is only just this year I have to publish colleagues that Sam Kristoff Mizner and have on the Rocks key and there is a Korean who works in New York or Daniel and and we the four of us have a paper which

► 01:16:42

I think today or tomorrow will be the new improved version of his paper should be on the archive and this the tides with her papers are we seeing hooking points in the CMB sky that was a hulking point is that talks about the black holes saying the previous are onto US assuming it's more or less like I was there would be black holes and clusters of galaxies huge swallowing up pretty pretty well the whole cluster and what happens to the energy in those black holes where it goes out in Hawking radiation age maybe a hundred yet Google yes or something

► 01:17:26

in the picture comes out basically Mumford think of that as your picture right at the very edge you see the north lot of angels and Devils squash together there so that the entire radiation from that single black hole will be squashed into that little point now we're on the other side what do we see well they will be a big release of energy at that point and that's what we call the whole thing behind and it spreads out to see what we see in the cosmic microwave background is his radiation coming from all directions and this radiation doesn't come from The Big Bang exactly it comes from 380000 years after the big bang so this is sort of last Gathering surface where photons what you're trying to get out funny

► 01:18:14

Heineken Skype let me see them now that spread out from the holding point to what you see in the in the cosmic microwave background in the law scattering surface is something of the diameter of about 8 times the diameter of the Moon

► 01:18:35

no big I know smaller

► 01:18:38

now you wouldn't see the whole thing because I asked only that way we what we seek should come across that we don't see the whole thing but we see probably most of it so you could have imagined something from about 4 to wait times the moon's diameter which is a small region which is highly energetic more interested in the middle and tapers off as you go to the edge and wishing to see these things the analysis that but the post that have the techniques and the actual

► 01:19:11

analyzing the day Services the Planck satellite data was done by Daniel Island and then we look at the data on Racine to see and effect which see what you do is you record only one universe that's what they complain about how do you know if something's real or not but you make zillions of fake universities in you compare this with them that's a lot of technique about how you do this but Daniel Fast did A Thousand Oaks and they were told us to sizes of these these rings to see where the temperature goes out from the outside to the middle there were two sizes both within the size of a say about 4 degrees across the sky and there was no evidence of them at all in the simulation so this is a real effect okay then people are skeptical of this for one reason or another so that no did another 10,000 all together

► 01:20:08

and you patiently there one or two weeks do what two or three to be precise where you see this effect in the simulations but if you work out the probability that this is a real effect you come up with a confidence level of 99.98% that this is a real effect so we waiting to see what people say about this what are your thoughts on multiverses you see this is different because this is the word sequential so I don't call it amounts each influence the next one until they know independent Wells right but ended up the possibility of independent well you see there are two reasons for believing in multiverses one of them is the Quantum reason that maybe will you have the training is dead cap in the log cabin in different worlds and they separate universes I don't believe that argument I don't think that's the right way to look at 1 to look at it so many people do and that suggest that you might have

► 01:21:08

these multiple universes in some what's an attractive about that to you it doesn't explain what we see see what a theory which explains the world we see see you say this state does that explain that while it's only because we've drifted off into some wheels and another version of ourselves is just into another one of them some see one in the other City have a and they're all in superposition it doesn't explain why you see one World In His Kind of coherence

► 01:21:42

I mean lots of people try and their many attempts at the sort of thing is quite a widely-held new and if you believe quantum mechanics the collapse is not real and it doesn't happen and the only alternatives to the death caps in the lock-up coexist in different worlds that's the interpretation that serve you I don't think that I want I want an explanation for the world we live in different worlds we got some that's that's right that's the alternative don't make a single trying to change Honda mechanics at all and then you are led to this multi-world many many world picture I think it even doesn't make that much sense so you got to be careful about it that whether they are really like different distinct Wills I don't think I could redo my view is it

► 01:22:42

let me not trying to check that I think I have a different view which is it's there it's not quite right there is something which makes the the collapse into a physical process and the

► 01:22:57

that supposed only one well which is a different reason and that is that they see the scene to be various accidents in La maybe one of them being at the neutron this just slightly more massive than the proton that's when they lost a lot of accidents receive it if they were a little different than Life as we know it couldn't happen and so how do you explain this well some people say well all these universes with different values of the constants all coexist it's just we only see the one that we're in because the numbers come out right for us. That's what's causing that Tropic argument I think we need a better explanation for why the numbers of what we see and so on

► 01:23:50

but that's not that one makes more sense to me than the other one so so I think maybe has to take that seriously by The View on presenting here with this picture it's for someone like me it's so interesting to know that there's still a considerable amount of speculation yes on speculation but a lot of it is pretty off-the-wall and then okay and I'll get the same decent things in the past but now you said I guess that's what people think I do know it's just me. Meaning, if he's done things on this to and a compy they will roll off the rails I think

► 01:24:50

Beauty Garden look for and if I don't see you in something funny going on somewhere if they do see them there's something else going funny on which which they'll have to think of another explanation think of a different view from the current inflation view which is in real trouble with these observations as far as I can see do you anticipate any foreseeable time the future a better understanding of dark matter and dark energy or perhaps of a better definition of what those things are

► 01:25:20

yeah we see I think it's cool is that has why is it that at all and they're suddenly questions about that which I agree with. Massa

► 01:25:40

I didn't go into this but in the scheme of mine it has to be there when I say it I mean that's if you want the equations to make sense which crossover from our remote future to the Big Bang of a nexion you have to have a creation of a dominant new material which is scalar and I just said doesn't spend on particles

► 01:26:07

and that they only interact gravitationally and that's what we see but the theory that I'm putting folded make me seem very massive there about what's called the Planck Mass I don't know exactly cuz there's some freedom in this something like the prank blanck Mass which people described as the mass of a fleas I

► 01:26:29

don't quite know why they make it but that's about 10 to the -5 grams so you looking at 100,000 per gram

► 01:26:39

so it's it's an appreciable size basic possible since that's huge for a fundamental particle so it says it's a wild idea from that point to do but also they should Decay and they should Decay into gravitational signals which maybe could be seen by liger maybe have been seen by that girl and thrown in the rubbish bin because they be different types of signals from people would expect I would like to put my money anyway there but I'm liking hoping that these dark matter particles are the ones that come from the theory that I'm putting forward to that would be another

► 01:27:29

consequence of this particular point of view and they've observed correct me if I'm wrong entire galaxies that they believe that consists of dark matter there's some galaxies the other way around which don't seem to have any time at all the galaxies which have huge amounts that's probably why you have trouble seeing them Broncos. Matter off till it was just a measured thing right maybe I don't know that one

► 01:28:04

they just have to have some reason why they Clump together in this way

► 01:28:10

is it possible that galaxies collide

► 01:28:14

then what you see the stars tend to go through so they would a company with lead company the dark matter that the dust and the galaxies tends to get stuck and stay where it is so if 2K eggs onions have a big pile of dust in the middle but I think the. Massa

► 01:28:30

does sicario I'm through with the Stars I don't know there may be some process which could produce just islands of. Mehta and I don't know when you discuss the cosmos may be the single most intriguing possibility to us as human beings is what other intelligent life if any is out there and how interesting is that to you cuz you spend so much time studying the fundamental particles of the universe itself how interested are you in the possibility of other intelligent life forms or have you just like the put that out into the it's just so

► 01:29:09

ridiculously unlikely or so far away from us that will probably never going to make contact there's a seti program to see where they can see signals from listen civilizations the problem that from my perspective is that although they might be out there they've got to have had a real head start on us before you would see them but then I don't know why he goes to John who's my minion, and who looked also for these ring checks things and look at them in a different way for the Polish people but we seem to seeing something there but we wrote a paper

► 01:29:52

it makes me speculated on beings from the previous Eon communicating with us an advantage there is that you're looking at the really Advanced civilization vary in their Universe disappeared and then had to come back to a big bang stay the same through here and somehow or another those signals remain it's conceivable I agree it's pretty far-fetched but you know how many billions of the Big Bang was fourteen billion yes but you see that's way

► 01:30:33

we're at the beginning in a sentence or three-quarters of the way through in another sense in this picture we are already three-quarters of the way through so 14 billion to now so we have how many count is as much as you like it depends on something else the mass has to fade out how do you measure time is problematic Infinity you see which is much juice or you might have a different definitions of time which depend on what particle you using as your clocks and things like that so are you sentient saying that it's entirely possible that we are the farthest in terms of our technological achievement in our understanding of the universe itself it's possible there were at the front of the line. There might be some other intelligent life

► 01:31:33

farms in the universe but they might be behind us I'm not saying they got through you say rub maybe they have techniques for getting through but that's that's a bit hard to imagine but maybe information from them to get through and Mayte keep me from the previous email through like somehow another survived but it would have to be in the form of photons or something yeah I know it's not I'm talking about ridiculous respect Erasure encoding information and the photons yes it's not out of the question but they could develop some technology which would get information which might be them in some sense across in the phone the photo but you're not optimistic about current intelligent life somewhere in the universe

► 01:32:26

not too optimistic just because

► 01:32:30

well maybe it took us a long time to get going because the dinosaurs were there for a while and somebody might have got in there earlier and they're different planet and they could have got their credit head of us is conceivable I'm not going to really tired I just not terribly optimistic about it I think it's worth doing it's worth looking but it's not something I'd be curious at me and I'm not expecting it and I guess is it just because of the overall lack of real evidence and it's just not an attractive

► 01:33:04

anything for you to pursue it's quite attractive really

► 01:33:18

come to terms with it very huge Lisa I know there's this activity and I'll be interested to see if any kind of thing that came pasta some people speculated the different intelligence which came quite close in our solar system that was that strange-looking the cigar shaped alien because of the way I was traveling that was the idea to make a connect with it and somebody that I don't know I guess it's too far away now that's another thing that's so uniquely fascinating for us the concept of love another of another life form out there

► 01:34:11

no I want to see the loss of things I'm interested in the ones that talk to you about some of the main months old of the Consciousness one is

► 01:34:20

I'm glad that there are people doing it and you see this is one of the things that's this institute that's that's being created using my name and James tigers and also this started it and I'm quite attached to this thing where you can switch it the deliberate purpose of it is to develop ideas which makes sense but are not mainstream one of these was the Consciousness thing so you know Stuart hameroff is doing it but it's not a activity that's being taken from other parts of the world so they have a place which supports that kind of thing is great and I think that's very good but when I heard about it first I thought well most of my interest

► 01:35:20

are on the physics side and not so much in biology which I'm pretty ignorant about and there are lots of ideas on that side not just a cosmology but ideas and building

► 01:35:34

experiments which might detect the collapse of the wave function and one idea to look at Bo's Einstein condensate so I have a colleague who I knew about and who had these ideas of how to use to stream way of looking at it but a very clever idea and the Bose-Einstein condensates because it's so quantum mechanical and they are so cold there almost virtual absolute zero and they can keep external disturbances from causing problems and you can manipulate them in ways to make them in two places at once people stunts kind of thing and so it might well be a good way of testing the mother Schrodinger cat thing everyone was it State reduction or the collapse of the wave function is a phenomenon

► 01:36:34

temperature is a kind which I hope my being I've got to Tatian effect and an in that case if it is then that would be relevant to the Consciousness problem so obvious things tied together and there is ways I said I hope was that these things which are you know could be supported and I thought it was important cuz it's always the danger of such an Institute being rude I just by keeping yes you doing weird things because to the important point from my perspective is that they should be things which can be and

► 01:37:07

I don't know immediately tested experimentally or wait a few years so the things which are really you can get your home and get an testing. So this would be a protection against in the wealthiest these are just crazy ideas of being pursued they have to be ideas which are capable test and have a reasonable chance of showing evidence in favor and the favor or Gaston it whichever would be interesting and important to know so from the outside looking in to me it's so fascinating to watch intellectuals as a shot like yourself that are bouncing these ideas around that are possible but are not mainstream and then seems to me that it's a precarious sort of tightrope walk like you don't want to say anything ridiculous that's not true until you would love to say something that seems to be ridiculous but turns out to be in fact accurate and provable yes that's what I was just dance

► 01:38:07

I'm sorry right out of course you got to play with ideas which were on the southern edge of what we know otherwise you were stuck with what we know down the old roots and if you need to be able to break Break Free of those from time to time but not in that anyway which is too crazy to be examined see whether there is truth in these ideas are not because of this inclination that people have to go towards woo or towards crazy ideas it is important for the skepticism right and is important for the scrutiny yes it was real danger in that ledge this is strange kind of problem because of the Visions by calculations and my Armenian colleague and I had written copy papers on this and we haven't got any response at all and the Polish people and they

► 01:39:07

typhus two of them accepted by respectable journals and

► 01:39:14

a piece of ass Nina what kind of response you got nice a zero what about you how about what 0 referee the accepted Publications and instead of people you know this is a load of nonsense if I see that I might be unhappy with it but it got some of the work on you say oh I see what's wrong something is modifying hear that doesn't explain properly that's what's needed yes no you're right it's right by the band in this idea all these things come from criticisms add to have absolutely no attention whatsoever why do you think there's no attention paid

► 01:40:05

I don't know I don't really know tell me one of the things so much information that people don't have time to run projects and they don't pay attention and they think it looks crazy because it's too much outside the picture of the world but they have and I think a lot of its that and they may be say well okay I've been thinking I'm an old guy and I don't know maybe I did good things in the past but maybe I've gone a bit off the rails. I think that it's not just me right I need to respect the people who work on these things to so I don't think that could be a complete explanation maybe it's part of it but your volume up. I think that's a big part of the trouble cuz they're other ideas Which Wich to meet up crazy and two other people don't look in these in this crazy is my ideas you see so maybe that's why

► 01:41:05

long have more attention page than the twins be curious to know whether the whole thing points will take off for not well I'm so happy there's people like you doing this kind of work and then someone condensing it down to an understandable point that someone like me can absorb and it just try to get a better picture of this insane reality that we're living in and it seems like the more I talk to people like yourself in the more you study this it doesn't get less weird it gets more weird yes I think that's right well I don't know more information it seems to be more fantastic there's suddenly a lot of very weird things but the point about them is that they got to make sense mathematical sense that God agree with observation facts

► 01:41:57

and that rules out of all of the really weird ones it does but even the ones that are observable and do it here to the fax there so fantastic it's so the reality with this one of the things that's most frustrating about people's inclination to lean towards the woo and I've been guilty of it myself and so attractive but what's frustrating about it is that provable reality is so titanically Bazaar that's true make a very good point that we winnin of itself in so many ways is

► 01:42:47

separating the things which are strong to be changed in some way or the other ones which are with him, I just weird and that's absolutely true they're all these things which which I believe have to be true as much as the Dive. In the Womb Mechanicsburg who thought of its body lines in Salem and yet know each other in a way you can't explain that there separate individuals they behave as though there one

► 01:43:35

weather causing entangled State and you can make experiments which reveal that I mean it specific John Bell I was in Irish

► 01:43:45

34 physicists who really made it made all this very clear that these things are real manifestations of the peculiarities of quantum mechanics and really out there in the world

► 01:43:57

with a J DS haldane it said the world is not only queerer than you suppose it's quicker than you can suppose that's all right because that's what this is right thank you for your time and I really appreciate it I really appreciate talking to you and thank you for all your work and your your contribution to our understanding of what we're looking at here but I hope it helps a bit it helps a lot I appreciate you very much thank you thank you sir

► 01:44:29

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► 01:46:29

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