#1176 - Dom D'Agostino & Layne Norton

Sep 28, 2018

Dom D’Agostino, Ph.D., is an assistant professor in the Department of Molecular Pharmacology and Physiology at the University of South Florida Morsani College of Medicine, and a senior research scientist at the Institute for Human and Machine Cognition (IHMC). Dr. Layne Norton is a renowned prep/physique coach and pro-natural bodybuilder/powerlifter with a PhD in Nutritional Sciences.

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Norton and Dom D'Agostino to scientist who actually agree about a lot of things but we're going to talk about high carb versus low carb the pros and cons of ketogenic diets just sometimes it's difficult when one experts on they say things and other experts are listening and like I disagree while I want to just get people together in the room and just fucking figure this out and it's not easy to figure out this is It's dependent a lot on the individual on your own biological needs your lifestyle how much energy expand during the day so many variables but I think the more we do of these kind of podcast in the more information we get out there the more the surface area of ignorance gets sort of cleaned up the more more you get illuminated as to what's necessary and not necessary and what's beneficial and not beneficial and

diet and health I mean without it you're fucked right I agree okay without any further delays and Gentlemen please welcome Layne Norton and Dom D'Agostino

The Joe Rogan Experience

and we live gentleman thanks for being here preciate it let everybody know who you are laying on the Meathead who like science got nobody building when I was young and then BS and ba chemistry Ph.D nutritional science

cap lifton did Palestine 1/2 national championships got silver medal at Worlds set of in World squat record and it also bodybuilding and one of the natural Pro Kardashian have natural bodybuilding believe it or not and throughout that time just you know when I first got into it one magazine said one thing and even in the same magazine that have an Article 1 month next month of contradict it sounds like I'm just going to try and figure this shit out for myself so which is a place that a lot of people listening or at right now I'm or the energy to go into a degree in this stuff so but that was me I kind of got down the rabbit hole of all right let's try and figure this nutrition stuff out and of course the more I learn the more I realize I didn't know but yeah it just became a passion for me to enter this day I'm so very I love the stuff this is what gets me up gets me going well guys like you are very important guys who actually trained very high

really understand the science this is because it's usually one or the other in 2010 when we started we actually knew each other from the bodybuilding.com message boards for social media train together back in 2006 or 77 there's a big Symposium every year for science Geeks and we were both going to it and we each other on the forums and we went train together and he's a he's a beast and we really hit it off and we've been friends since then so if you're looking for a fight so sorry it's going to be a conversation that one please tell me who you are what you do keep the sucker a career in it that much

I went into Neuroscience the 90s was a decade of the brain and my my you know formal training is a neuroscience and it got steer towards basically changing the neuropharmacology of the brain with nutrition and that's what the ketogenic diet does and it has tremendous benefits I think for military personnel witches and funded by the Office of Naval Research and the Department of Defense to develop ketogenic strategies to enhance Readiness resilience and and performance and safety in military personnel and what what why specifically does the ketogenic diet help military people I know there's a thing with Navy Seals with preventing epilepsy or limitation Navy SEAL diving is oxygen toxicity seizures and antiepileptic drugs are not really a viable option because they can there side effects it can decrease cognitive

aliens physical resilient strategy is something that's being studied now from a basic science mechanistic perspective to animal work to now human studies so it's not you know out in the field yet but some guys are actually doing it and I study the science of that and people don't understand what you were saying for some folks who have epilepsy the ketogenic diet has been shown to stop seizures absolutely go Google the Charlie foundation so that's how I actually got LinkedIn and actually I met a natural drug free bodybuilder his name was Mike dancer and he had severe terminal epilepsy Google Mike dancer ketogenic diet and you'll find an amazing story about a guy who use nutrition to manage his epilepsy when drugs failed and he used it to Pratt & Wynne body building shows and compete in bodybuilding and the rebreathers sometimes cause seizures with some of the soldiers they can so to see water

closed-circuit rebreather like a Drager rebreather at 52 seawater your potential for getting oxygen toxicity seizure can occur in just 10 minutes so that's a little bit of time and that's not very deep so where there's no way to predict that and there's no way as of now to prevent that so we study physiological biomarkers that could warn people of an impending seizure and we also develop countermeasures to mitigate oxygen toxicity seizures I focus mostly on drugs I'm in a pharmacology and physics physiology department but I realized that people with epilepsy the ketogenic diet was more effective than drugs so I got stared into you know nutrition which was my undergrad and then that kicked off about 10 years ago and I've just been deep into probably a dozen or more different applications of nutritional ketosis awesome and lean up and pay attention to online for a long time one of them. You do a great job with is just calling full shit on I mean you love call bullshit clearly but whenever people are overstating clay

sore people get ridiculous and I think this is one of the things that is a problem with any diet when people get really enthusiastic about it that becomes an ideology whether it's the ketogenic diet or the carnivore diet or the you-know-what fill in the blanks vegan diet people decide this is the end all be all it's going to cure cancer make you smarter to Dick's going to grow a foot all these things going to happen and you do a great job of convulsion on that kind of stuff yeah I mean I I'm not anti keto I'm not anti vegan I'm anti bullshit and one of the problems we have is nutrition is replacing religion for a lot of people so you find something that you identify with and then people start to try to say because they identify with that movement or like for example vegans I identify with many of them protection of animals not my job to judge their ethics on that sort of thing

but then they kind of try to backtrack to find the science to support them as well and they they pick and choose in this is guilty of all groups that just because this is also a lot of ketogenic diet sell its carnivore diet whatever have you if it has the word diet there zealots out there we're going after it and I will stick up for 5 stuck up at a scientific conference for the ketogenic diet you were we were having a Roundtable about something different and somebody till we know that the ketogenic diet and prayers exercise performance and endurance athletes and I don't think that's necessarily true you know it's pretty and ambivalent the ambiguous as to whether or not it does it seems to be kind of individual but on the whole on the average it doesn't seem to unpair exercise performance so it's kind of what you like but when you have people who you know like like a Gary taubes who says what calories don't matter it's all the carbohydrates that sort of thing of the carbohydrate insulin bottle of e City I mean did the researches

you're able to do a lot of hand waving about insulin and you know what you burn so much fat when your on a high-fat diet which is true by the way you burn a lot of fat but what they don't talk about is that it's it's over all fat balance how much fat you store purses how much fat you burn and when you're on a high-fat diet you store a lot of fat you also burn a lot of fat the overall caloric balance is what determines whether or not you will have net storage or net deposition and sent them for high carb diet as well you know this idea that with high insulin it just completely shut that all fat burning everywhere that's that's just not true. If you have high carbohydrate you will burn less fat but you're also storing last night as well and again the net caloric balance is going to be what determines how much you store because you don't really store carbohydrates as fat for most people they did a study over feeding women where they over fed them 50% above their caloric maintenance and they found it of 282 grams of fat they store

during the day and adipose only 4 grams came from carbohydrate 278 came from fats glucose what about fructose and fructose causes we think you know non-alcoholic fatty liver disease so that could be you know that that's how do you know about life in Genesis is higher with fructose and you think about people consuming it in a liquid drinks a hundred to 200 grams a day which is not uncommon for my wife not so strict toes doesn't have a little bit of different hepatic metabolism but I was actually across the hall from a professor who is doing a lot of the research on unforked us and obesity and and fatty liver disease and even came to the conclusion that if you overfeed fructose and it creates a caloric funky stuff start to go on relative to other macros when she said so powerful

I talk loud but a lots good so if you're if you're doing that if you're creating that caloric Surplus what do you find is when you're in net storage when you're driving more nutrients into adipose and sometimes liver depending on the tablet but it takes it takes a lot of fructose to do that and a caloric Surplus

you start to create a lot of Waukee stuff going on the mitochondria start to become dysfunctional and you know people make a big deal about oh well you have we have claimed now that everything causes obesity and type 2 diabetes for first it was Fats then carbohydrates and there's actually professors out there but she will clean the protein gives you diabetes dysfunctional how does the mitochondria does that happen Okay so I'm going to State Fair buddy that I'm going out on a limb this is my opinion okay if you look at the research on Obesity and diabetes

what happens if you have everything start to elevate the blood stream so if you measure like there was a professor who taught that branched chain amino acids were causing obesity because they were elevated the bloodstream during type 2 diabetes yeah Branch Jamie Lassiter elevated so fatty acids solar triacylglycerides so is it really those things causing it or is it possible that when you are overfeeding relative to what you burn relative to that turn over that my mitochondria start to become dysfunctional probably a lot due to inactivity and the mitochondria is as we called the PowerHouse of the cell is probably learned in high school biology or whatever they taught it to you as

that is where everything fluxes through so that is where you're creating ATP that's where you're burning through lipids carbohydrates that's what a thing if that becomes dysfunctional and you're not getting enough enough pull through that mitochondria what happens is you start to backup every part of metabolism so all the metabolic by-products almost all of them inhibit everything within the cell metabolism X signature for that and in epiphenomenon if you want to call it that would be elevated branched chain amino acids flexing enough to the cell they start accumulating within the cell and start to inhibit the Krebs cycle glycolysis and so everything starts backing up to the point where you also start inhibiting the insulin receptor and now you have glucose fatty acids and amino acids also backing up to the point where they start to overspill into the bloodstream and you see these this accumulation of

all them in the bloodstream and type 2 diabetes and I actually think that again me going out on a limb that obesity doesn't cause type 2 diabetes and type 2 diabetes does it cause obesity that they develop in concert from the same problem which is overfeeding underactivity so a lot of it is about how much nutrients you're flexing into Cells versus how much energy you're creating flexing them through the selling out so when you're overfeeding Weatherby carbohydrate fat you're flexing more energy in then you can dispose of and now you have to do something with it well when you run out of when you do that much to it and mitochondria start to become dysfunction dysfunctional you start to not have enough places to put it away and start spilling into the bloodstream and now you cause all kinds of problems so one of the things that we really wanted to talk about here is high carb versus low carb because this is just a giant point of contention today and nutrition especially in terms of

athletes with performance in mine that's it's a big factor whether or not high carb or low carb is way to go and there's a lot of zealots on both sides and there's a lot of bullshit and there's a lot of you know online experts and one of the great thing about bringing you two guys in here is cuz you could really actually explain the science behind it now you've been great Lane at pointing out that there's it's not Magic Bullet and you know and so many people like to sort of stress it that way that they did that like to portray ketogenic diet is this is it this is the end all be all I figured out what to do if this is the way everyone should be eating you don't think so

I don't think so because if you look at the the weight loss problem in our society and I'm writing a book called fat loss forever will I talk about this in detail we don't have weight loss problem 6 out of every seven people are able to lose a significant amount of body weight in their life for obese or overweight the problem is the weight regain statistics are absolutely like terrifying within one year 70% will put it all back on within 2 years it's 85% within 3 years it's 95% so that means diets have a 95% failure rate and all those people one-third or two-thirds will add more than they originally lost and just gets kind of into yo-yo dieting and I talked about that as well but the real problem is that people don't stick to pick something that's sustainable for them all the research if there's one bit of research out there that but we have that shows how to create lasting weight loss and you look at the people who are the 5% who acts

keep it off it's a day pick something that's sustainable whether it be ketogenic whether it be low carb high or low fat whatever it is vegan something that they can stay in and make a lifestyle if you cuz if you look at meta-analyses for our listeners are kind of a study of studies so they take researchers take studies that have similar parameters and they kind of lump them together and it look at okay what's the consensus amongst these studies and they have advanced statistics that used to run this

if you look at low carb versus low fat

there's no difference in appearance overall on the whole there's no difference and there's no difference in the weight loss there's no difference in blood lipids even glycemic control so there was a study where they a meta-analysis of I think it was 23 studies over 3,000 people where they look at okay if you can't roll calories so calories are acquainted

does low-carb versus low-fat make a difference on weight loss glycemic control those Westerly the ketogenic diet marker that defines the ketogenic diet is the only diet that actually has something that you know you can measure in your blood to say you're on this diet and when your Ketone levels are elevated that confers many different benefits that I believe can enhance it here it's to the diet before we get into the woods yet I want to clarify one thing the difference between someone being on a diet and being able to sustain it and not being able to stand and getting all that weight back is not a discipline issue

well partly but we kind of have to start looking at okay if we if we going

maybe let me View Circle

we have to find what requires the least amount of discipline for somebody to stick to because discipline is is while some people have more some people have less it is a finite resource so when do we know me find the people like kind of drop off whatever they're doing it's when they're stressed out work stressing them out they're going through a divorce those kinds of things right words are are disciplined kind of waves because we're trying to be so disciplined for this other thing and it's draining us so what happens with with diet is in people who are busy people who have a lot of stress in my life that's what they really start over eating so we have to find something that I look at his let's find something that requires the minimum amount of discipline for a person so that when your life goes to absolute shit you can still stick to it and so for some people that is a very very individual thing and they see this in the dietary studies that what works

for one person to create a deficit and sustainable isn't the same way for another person in Dom even commented on this about his wife Sheila she does much better on a higher ratio of carbohydrate to Fat I mean early on it was obvious that she wasn't going to change your diet by the time that we met like 10 years ago most we I was really getting into this and I really felt that for me at least a but she would stop at Checkers and you don't get a burger and sugary drink and she's a tremendously carb intolerance is very skinny as a kid and she tolerated carbohydrates she's very carbohydrate tolerance did Isaiah the diet low carb I feel and maybe in ketogenic putting it under the umbrella works I think for up to 25 to 30% of people especially at their carbohydrate intolerance and I believe that it does that

by virtue of elevated ketones shifting your dinero pharmacology of the brain for example at work through growling at work through those new science emerging right now showing that appetite regulation is influenced positively by nutritional ketosis in ways that we're just starting to learn now but you can certainly feel it when you're in that state you all the sudden you're just not hungry the same as it is not an overwhelming need for food I haven't had anything to eat today I mean when I was eating massive plate of pasta 25 years ago and I went to this this long without food I would start getting shaky I would I would have a hypoglycemic response and I'm completely resilient to that and it has major implications for military personnel being keto-adapted not just for performance preventing seizures and I think for cognitive function to but you it's very liberating so meal frequency

not an issue so if you're in austere environment where you have limited to availability that becomes a major issue and if you're working as a scientist and you can't you know you're working with animals are doing experiments you have time to eat I need to maintain that cognitive function I need to be sharp you know with limited food so it worked very good for me throughout my professorship you know getting tenure and things like that why you just put more time and energy into my work without having to stop for perineal eating meal clean up like I think I wasted a lot of time doing that when I was eating 5 to 6 meals a day he said something that I think you've called bullshit on before the phrase carb intolerant so yes so if I need to find a buy a blood marker your glucose response to a meal so I want to come right out and frame this whole discussion real quick

so we both agree that in terms of weight loss and body composition that your total calorie intake per day is the most important thing correct yes I believe the strategy to regulate that so with with carb intolerance if if you look at the benefits of like on blood glucose blood lipids it is almost 90 to 95% explain by weight loss so beautiful you can take people put them on a high carb very low fat diet their blood glucose and their blood lipids will drop even with like her insulin levels then people who are not a low-carb diet if they're on a calorie-restricted hey I like a ketogenic diet because for me and helps me to create a calorie deficit I can stick to it hey knock yourself out that is no problem but that is not always going to work some people don't feel that say she don't like you

there are people who do feel hungrier on that so that is a very individual response and again when we look at studies were looking at means right so we're talking about averages and there are outliers like if you look at any gaussian distribution chart which is kind of how populations distribute based on a certain treatment you have about 60 to 70% that fall into the the average then you have another note in 20% that I kind of do a little bit better one way vs. the other and then you have 5% on either in there are sorry to an episode on either end their outliers right so just a frame this again looks like weightlifting we know weightlifting makes you bigger and stronger right like that is not up for debate we agree on that their Studies have shown that some people who are beginners where you should be gaining a lot of muscle very quickly some people will go from the first time they walk in the gym Spotlight 85 12 weeks are the squatting 400lb some people don't get stronger

did Ice Cube in studies were over 12 weeks there's a few individuals who did not get stronger so those are outliers right there so if we work Circle this back to KJ I'm not sitting here and saying that somebody may actually physiologically do better on a ketogenic diet versus a lower fat diet that's a very individual response but when we start making recommendations for people what we should start with his okay credit calorie deficit that allows you to lose some weight because if we look at the studies that we look at if we equate for protein cuz that's a big thing so if you look at some of the studies were volek did where he compared like your kind of food guide pyramid type diet to a ketogenic diet the ketogenic diets for a little bit higher protein that protein has a thermogenic effect is also an appetite suppression effect when you equate for those and there's been 32 studies there was a recent meta-analysis done of 32 studies of the Equator for calories and protein

absolutely no difference in Fat Loss when you equate for those two calories and protein because proteins a big one because protein has a big benefit on thermogenesis and weight loss also lean body mass retention which is huge because one of the reasons people regain weight is because when they lose weight they tend to lose fat and muscle and when they were gained its almost all fat in the initial phase as far as that may not have included data with the ketogenic diet so I know you know when I did the guy I've seen a lot of blood work so for example my hemoglobin h1c triglycerides hs-crp goes down insulin goes down blood pressure goes down and that that all those all those changes happened without my bodyweight changing so that would kind of argue against that you needed a calorie deficit and I've seen it many times but once you could I could be eating eighty to ninety percent carbs and reduce my body weight and get changes in all that I could actually increase my carbs

and if I create a calorie deficit you know my hemoglobin h1c will go down my sugar down things like that so that is really the dryer that's like that trumps everything that calorie deficit said that that's an important thing so that's what NS what I think a lot of people Miss okay and I think that that what I say is how do I was just saying that so I think that's very powerful to mention can occur without with without changing your body weight so they are just fundamentally changing your metabolism when you do that from car in that has pretty wide-ranging application so I think that what I'm going to say is that if you if we're going to talk about people getting healthier the first thing we need to start with is let's not lose 50% or 5% right so if I tell somebody hey find a. You can stick to that sustainable and if you can lose 10% you can lose 10% of your body weight in probies people think it almost all the help

if it's in the first 10% now maybe some people like you were people who respond really well to a ketogenic diet I'm not theirs out Liars or people on the other sides of the gaussian curve if you do a little bit better on there then great but if you find a ketogenic diet is completely unsustainable for you and you're not you're not able to stick to it but you're trying to do it because you're trying to get a little bit better blood glucose regulation your your your kind of shoot yourself in the foot because if you could stick to it like let's say for the individual Ohio carb diet was easier for them to stick to they can lose weight on that then that's the bulk of their health benefits they're going to get from it I'm having a hard time of these terms easier because I don't know exactly why it would be easier wouldn't be easier and I always wonder if it again is this a discipline issue because that's that's your experience for sure preference but I believe that by when you follow a low-carb naughty

ketogenic diet the variability of the fluctuations in your insulin and blood glucose the postprandial dip in blood glucose that you get after you that's virtually abolished or significantly attenuated and then you have you know ketones and are working through ghrelin for example you could just you could eat a normal diet and drink ketones and it's actually it's suppressing your appetite through growling so we know that these changes reductions in Garland you say so I did these changes sort of are happening but they're my sister for example you know follow the ketogenic diet and found it easy to follow but she gained weight because she was eating all these fat bombs that she was making so she should I think a lot of people don't necessarily need a nutritionist to tell them what they do but they need like a nutritional psychotherapist stores in a relationship with food is really and I think that's what land has a firm grasp on thurs no substitute for

Korean sand Lane has worked with so many different client and knows that you know you could probably fall back you change out your listeners are probably fans if you think I can do it I love fatty food you know I've had food low carb food but generally speaking it's you know you have to approach it from the perspective sort of eating behavior and I think that that's really people want to go off the diet just the natural human trade so weird psychological trade right just want to cheat you want to just stuff your face cupcakes every now and then and then and then you just leave feel like it's too much torture to keep yourself on this narrow path of high-fat low-carb moderate protein but you know 5 years ago 10 years ago. That was the case but now there's ketogenic brownies or cookies or check out check out of tried tried so hard go to Quito

bet they are evolving evolving yeah, meaning that they taste okay and they actually do what they say they actually elevated ketones or you know don't cause a glycemic response some of those cookies seem like they have no Foundation like you but they like the go away like as you're eating them it's like they dissolve you know they don't like you have like a good Toll House cookie a good real chocolate chip cookie in your Biden soccer you know it's bad for you but God damn it feels good while it's being Bad Guy the Quest for coconut cream soda

if you look at people that think they're addicted to sugar or that sugars life look at things like cookies and cakes and it's actually they have more calories from fast and they do sugars it's sugar in fat together is hyper palatable but one of the things I was going to bring up as you know the sugar is so inherently bad and you said that the cookie you know we do that as an inherently bad thing but what if I told you they were certain people not everybody everybody's different but there were certain people who if you tell them hey you can have that cookie every once in awhile if you track it we're going to do a macro nutrient intake. That's fine the Galaxy improve their appearance to diet so because you give them a reward no don't wear yourself out who actually usually improves in here it's so it we see the text you were trained to athletes when you do a flexible training model where they have to get the certified of training but they kind of can pick and choose their self

days are hard which days are limited they actually do better diet is very similar to that so now you always have to sacrifice something in order to if you want to lose weight right so if you're doing ketogenic diet what you're sacrificing it say well I like the spontaneous Productions an appetite so I don't mind eating not these Foods so I can get that if you're doing like kind of what I don't want the iPod polarized it but myself and some other people on the message boards populi something called flexible dieting where you can essentially whatever you want as long as you hit your protein carbohydrate fat targets now what you're sacrificing is okay you're tracking every day to buy an app that's cool I actually just do it through Excel my girlfriend on her phone like she she has me like if she's driving so I can we put in what I just ate I'm like babe I don't even know how to work this thing you know so because when I went to

do my Graduate Studies I mean I wanted to find magic Foods I wanted to find something that would suck his house can you make a living you have to set yourself apart I mean if I'm over here saying it's hard for me to sell what I what I do cuz I'm saying well you everything in moderation and you got to be diligent you got to have these behaviors or not. Doesn't sound sexy when there's another guy over here saying it's just complicated everything but it's just carbs you know when I started working people that worked with over 1,500 people coaching and nutritional I'm over the past 13 years which I should probably taught me more than life and my Ph.D did what I found was his that people were so different individually in terms of what what made them tick you know now I feel like I should probably go back and get some mixing tip biologically what makes him tick or psychologically so I can't sit here and say by the research

that that carbohydrate versus fat makes a difference on fat loss but what I can tell you is that some people just seem to do better on lower carb higher fat but also some people I work with just seem to do better with higher carb lower-fat know whether that's a psychological thing or a physiological think it's hard to teas that suppress fatty acid oxidation Pathways others are bikes screaming fast metabolizers you know or fat or sugar metabolizers you know I had a conversation with them with whether the researcher dr. Kabbara in Illinois who was doing some of that fructose stuff when I was the first year grad student I said hi fructose corn syrup this is what's causing obesity right and he's like well it's easy to over consume you know like if you take a soda and you drink it you not less hungry than you were stopping satiating

so what if you're if you're controlling your calories it doesn't seem to be more lipogenic than comparable carbohydrate know that I thought might be taking that can't be right all these people say the high fructose corn syrup is like the worst thing in the world for you there was there was a few studies that really changed my opinion on sugar now the listeners are going to hear this and think that I'm advocating for sugar I'm not not talking about in the in the context of a calorie Surplus Surplus amount of protein which is kind of explains the state of United States to know if you look at sugar intake so this guy gets back to the carbohydrate insulin obesity model over the last 50 years or last hundred years it went up very studly with obesity until around the mid-90s and then it took a short dip while Beastie continue to climb again that's just correlation data but if you do look at the the overall calorie intake versus obesity rate it's on so I can r squared of like .94

which is really really cool is that there was a study done by this is not high fructose corn syrup so when you talk about the graph of consumption that Sugar dropped off but high fructose corn syrup did not is that is that took over many of the products but you're not saying I don't know that I have to look that up so he hears me being a scientist who sang the three magic words I don't know like the last 10 to 15 years like skyrocketing with high fructose corn syrup and high fructose corn syrup is anymore process is it is essentially the same

sugar versus high fructose corn syrup colorful Gallery so sugar sucrose is 50% glucose 50% fructose corn syrup is 55% fructose 45% glucose but if you're saying that that 5% is what's creating obesity again psychologically some people just down sodas like it's their job you know and if you're doing that children that's a big big don't know whether it's the Mexican car with a cane sugar or having kids alcoholic fatty liver disease and that did not exist but I would say that when you think that's from corn syrup think it it's it's due to an excess Surplus calories and no Surplus calories being hyper to sponsor so if you're if you're used to eating a certain amount of calories and you make me back when we were actually maintain your weight back in the up before the 60s. About 2,200 calories a day that was the average and now it's like 2800 is the the average consumption United States most adults

I think he's a lot more than that but you Trey and you have a higher lean body mass so that's that's that's fine there's some people that week that's a hold of the rabbit hole the if you if you start adding sodas in which aren't satiating at all they don't possibly affect your hunger hormones but you continue your same normal food intake boom I mean store but I can't tell somebody hey there's no way you can lose weight and drink soda cuz that's not true there was a study done by Sir with and they looked at high glycemic diet versus low glycemic I mean extreme they did one group had over a hundred grams of sugar a day another group had 10 grams or less per day is 11 grams or less per day

and I looked at the differences in weight loss blood lipids all that kind of stuff

everyday just for carbohydrates of the group that 18 grams of sugar or less a day did they eat the same amount of total carbohydrates in spike your glucose more than they did a higher fiber intake will they did find it they had heart and soul responses to the meal the high sugar group did but no difference is a weight loss so they both both groups lost weight the only real difference was the the the lower glycemic group had a little bit better both groups and poop improve cholesterol the lower glycemic group had just a little bit better Improvement probably because they were eating higher fiber which can buy and cholesterol on you excrete it I would like to see what happened to take weighted so again it's it's creating that calorie deficit both groups lost weight now

is it more difficult to create a calorie deficit if you're eating a lot of sugar yes okay so I always tell people your diet is like a budget if you're practicing something like fussible dieting right so I've got somebody like myself who has above-average muscle mass hope that I can say that people on the internet probably going to talk to me okay I'll say it you have above-average muscle mass welcome so

if you have you trained hard you have a faster metabolism naturally I mean I've seen people can maintain their body weight on 6 7000 calories a day you have a higher metabolic rate you never really big budget so if you make $100 a year is it a big deal but if you make 18 Grand a year should you go up by $500,000 sports car probably not right and if you say so

it's the same thing so like people up so Pop-Tart somehow became the the model of a flexible dieting movement because people were here is why it's kind of like counterculture Pop-Tart it's like so whatever you have so clean eating became a thing on Spotify please be big we say you eat clean even though there's no some people were like oh yeah I'm getting shredded Ida Pop-Tart everyday right so a lot of your followers do that they do

I don't know who else you know so it's more about people saying I can still eat these Foods I enjoy it I'm still losing weight because I'm in a calorie deficit and I'm getting my protein carbs and fat targets but if you're somebody with a slow metabolism and you're not exercising very much and maybe all you're eating is 100 grams of carbs a day should you spend 75 grams of those carbs on two Pop-Tarts hell no that's a terrible idea because you're not going to be able to hit your other micronutrients and those sorts of things but if you're eating 4000 calories look and Alberto Nunez friend of ours if you're 4,800 losing weight is it big deal he has to really because he I actually had one competitor competitor who had such a fast metabolism that he was actually having a lot of GI dysfunction because he he he he was like 700 grams of carbs in 200 grams of fat per day just to maintain his weight and he said

so bloated all the time and I so what are you eating like where your Foods in his chicken rice and broccoli and I said it's a peanut butter for fats and I'm like well no wonder dude you're having a hundred 50 grams of fiber a day you're literally full of shit like your shit is like really backed up to your esophagus okay so I said do me a favor eat some pizza eat some Pop-Tarts eat some more calorically dense foods and see how you felt the three days till next three days you like man I feel so much better I dropped like 3 pounds I feel amazing cuz he doesn't make any sense the Pop-Tart generation I watch this play out online really bad actually inspired a generation of drug-free bodybuilders to go and do their phds you know and actually one ones in my lap right now is it yet and I think he he learned a lot just from watching Lena so but I

you know that it was amazing to see these guys eating that amount of Pop-Tarts and in junk food and beer and I learned a lot from that but I think they could do it with wood that are carbohydrates so so what works for performance what works for bodybuilding may not be is probably not optimal for longevity and health so that's why that's an important point you know audio that's okay I know where he's coming from but I'd like to hear his opinion so why do you think that it would be an issue what would be the issue with sugar and with Pop-Tarts and junk food what would be the negative effects by Logic I think the accumulation of the postprandial spikes in glucose and Insulin over time especially in the context of a calorie Surplus could be a bad thing if you are doing a calorie Surplus to example for example to gain weight and mass over time

bodybuilders following contest in the offseason I think it's even more important almost to actually stick with food carbohydrate sources that are lower glycemic in are you can only tolerate so much fiber but I think if you are running a calories or if you are doing ketogenic diet and you have a calorie Surplus that could be a bad thing your triglyceride your triglycerides will go out so you are you're putting too much fat in the system in that are diet sodas go up on a high-protein but I trade it in in a reasonable amount but I just think that the negative you know that could come out of that is that your you know I'm following a blood glucose write an insulin curve in and I see this very dramatically for example in my student diabetic and recoup neck who's in N he wears a Dexcom continuous blood glucose monitoring system

and his insulin requirements dramatically dropped with low carb and his glucose fluctuations dramatically improved and that's going to pay big dividends probably if you have type 1 diabetes you ever you know the 10 top things on on how humans die you have a greater risk for every one of those you know dramatic and that's 10 years off your life if the tighter you can keep your glucose levels your blood glucose in your insulin levels that in the long run I feel it's going to pay they do the science still has to show that I think it's not totally clear but I think we can for type 1 diabetics which I think we can apply that data to the to the population if they control their glucose levels that pays big dividends in the long run so a couple things actually touch. I was going to bring up but I want to adjust one thing first which is the higher post prandial insulin in those the negative

Exxon health so if you have they done studies on this on BMI versus insulin. BMI is a we can debate about how useful of a measure it is but in general reflects body fat in the average population. Lifters but in the average BMI by the way for people were listening is in a ratio of your your height versus your weight the generally reflects obesity obese if you lift weights and it seems so silly it is but if you look at the general population who doesn't exercise it's actually pretty darn accurate

factored into your insurance though which is hilarious Trump post prandial insulin they've looked at the relationship between people who have their BMI eyes and post prandial insulin they find the people with higher BMI have higher post prandial insulin but the opposite relationship does not hold true I have higher insulin do not necessarily up higher BMI and they've done this and Men analysis so what that says is again that if you are obese type 2 diabetic metabolic syndrome profile that you have elevated levels of insulin because your body is becoming insensitive to it because of all the dysfunction that we talked about but just because you secrete higher insulin doesn't mean that you're going to have more body fat and there was a study done actually buy one the proponents of the carbohydrate insulin hypothesis that looked at what's called mendelian randomization

we're basically the idea is you have different Gene variants like we were talking about and if for example like they've done this with LDL cholesterol is LDL cholesterol We Believe most people believe the LDL cholesterol has some contribution towards heart disease it's a pretty I would say it's a pretty strong that people can over counter dependent and an individual they look at these these Gene variants people who have Gene variant where they run lower LDL have lower rates of heart disease if you look at that with insulin at best insulin explains

10% of obesity at that absolute best in that study actually showed a high level of bias it was between 1 to 10%

so I'm not putting out the insulin has some affect overall overall how do I measure insulin I mean we have hemoglobin h1c for like a you know that hire carb versus lower carb diets equating calories looking hba1c and saw that so the the the differences in weight loss with no different. Like we discussed when calories requited but also the difference is an hba1c reduction work different they were the same now you ask about health and you know consuming some of these quote-unquote bad foods if you do it in the butt you thought you said in the context of a caloric Surplus right which is the important thing because they help to create a surplus

but in a deficit the one what's the downside because kind of when you talk to people who are not just not celibate proponents of coil clean eating which again has no real objective definition when you say OK Walla Pop-Tart maybe you can lose it can't be good for you

okay well then that we have to have some objective measurement to show this by right like it cuz otherwise it's do you believe in magic okay so if you look at processed foods what they have found with processed foods is it you have a lower energy expenditure from them okay so you have a certain amount of what we call TEF thermic effect of food protein has a higher TEF in carbohydrate and fat okay so we know the high protein diet actually cause more weight loss and better lean body mass production part of that is through the Genesis of the TF thermic effect of food well with processed foods have a lower TEF okay but that doesn't mean you can't eat any processed foods and and lose weight you can you just need you might have to eat a little bit lower calories overall does that make sense with almond flour we know that if we were probably you know what other nuts or thing they just give me an example you know we don't fully digested

play and utilize those calories they passed through US set up with a Pop-Tart I think it's pretty high would like raw like like a salad and with nuts and things like that like it could become significant overtime I would Pop Tart like you can basically a hundred percent of that is going into your system and it's causing a hormonal response to the food that we eat creates its own way calories but creates a hormonal response and also from the brain perspective can change the neuropharmacology of your brain and that's how I got into the ketogenic diet because it fundamentally changes near transmitter systems and reward systems and things like that hormones people get so hung up on hormones and and if you look at the research data it just doesn't support it like with insulin in terms of like losing weight and your ear what happens with leptin and ghrelin and all those kinds of things that is a huge one of the other things we talked about before the podcast are we had about 30 Minute Podcast

people say things like in calories out model is because it is viewed as a two isolated variables calories in and calories that are separate that's not true calories in effects calories out okay there are moving targets of people say why the calorie deficit I didn't lose weight no you ate and what you thought was a calorie deficit and you didn't lose weight but if you didn't lose weight it was not a calorie deficit by definition okay so sure any water or something yeah when we look at dieting like just dieting and general overtime lowers your metabolic rate right so if you take somebody that she did a rat study rats but Redskin to respond pretty similar to humans into it would you agree with that in terms of blood.

so again but we have to put that out there cuz we want to we don't want to oversell it they did a depends on the context of your studying helpful but you don't want to do like a an insulin studying cows just tell the ruminants and there they don't care about insulin anyway they took rats they took him to to diet Cycles okay so this is kind of back to the yo-yo dieting thing and they looked at okay when they took obese rats died them down to a kind of normal level then they let the Nike SB Game as much food as they wanted let him eat back to the original obese level again to the previous level and then let him read back up what they thought was absolutely astonishing their food efficiency with so far up because their metabolic rate became suppressed every time they died at down your body has his self defense system that you activate every time you dye it I talk about this in my Shameless plug book so the first time they decided if that's the kind of one time

straight that they lost fat at when they let them regain it they regained it twice as fast as I lost it then the second time they try to lose it they lost it at half the original rate then when they regained it the second time they give you gave it three times as fast their food efficiency what way up there was no as long to lose the same amount of weight so I probably didn't explain it very well and they started the time of the original so your body's getting accustomed to famine exactly because every time you died and we see this with yo-yo diners who spend how many people do you know that seem to be professionally on a diet but they just had that short overfeeding. In between diets and then it really does because every time you dyed your activating your body self defense system how many fires do you know

that every time they died it gets harder and harder from a quite well they're doing the cutting weight is ruthless they're having the crushed ice super low so what is the single you're telling your body cuz you have to always think about things for The evolutionary perspective my PhD advisor was great about this he always ask me a really good guy and he would say why do you think the body did this well if you think about one of the regulatory mechanism becoming fat forces becoming too thin right so one one dangerous you starve to death the other dangerous you get so fat that a predator can come get you which is more dangerous in the last Twenty Thousand Years

it's failing so your body creates much tighter self defense system they're so when you diet your metabolic rate slows way down I mean if you've ever these guys who can't wait to all the time they're ready to get fight for example then what happens after they eat they fight they eat a crap ton of food because they're they're growing his way up left in his way down insulin his way down and they regain it really fast now I would have it safe to assume that if you dye it for a 16 weeks for a show for example or contest what what you actually educated me in like 10 years ago and I thought there was a psych post contest Rebound in 2 weeks would be this anabolic window or whatever diet hard for 16 weeks to make way it takes an equal amount of time to get your metabolism actually to that level again

call Aqua we wanted in rats and then use a variety of different approaches to determine how fast it it actually takes two to bring your metabolism if different strategies can be used to wrap up your metabolism because when you regain it you regain fat really quickly but your metabolic rate is more sluggish to return so they actually did a study with it the Biggest Loser participants in this is why I'm so big what is sustainable it has to be sustainable they looked at so they lost on the average like quite a bit of weight I can't remember the exact numbers but they lost a bunch of weight over the 30 weeks cuz they starve them and they exercise the crap out of them and they saw that their metabolic rate

dropped 500 calories more than you would predict just buy the amount of body fat and lean body mass to lose this what's called metabolic adaptation Define metabolic rate dropping what do you mean by that was good so so you have so we can calculate all the stuff so your overall total daily energy expenditure your tdee is made up of your basal metabolic rate which is what you burn like what we're doing right now just sitting around doing nothing it's just laying down to 50 to 60% in most people then you have your neat which is like this like I'm moving my hands I'm ambulatory movement non voluntary movement this stuff will actually go down when you diet like if you ever been around people yes you stop spontaneous movement goes down as a modifier feel like if you look at a slower

I'm not cheating and I talk slower like you were like on valium it look like oh absolutely like your ear so your body this is your body I would help you so so when you think about so there's meat that's that then your exercise activity which is intuitive that's how many calories you burn exercising in the news What's called the thermic effect of food would you already discussed how much energy required to get energy out of food okay and all those add up to your total daily energy expenditure and we can predict based on equations how about what your metabolic rate should be so these people their metabolic rate was 500 calories a day lower than it should have been just based off the way they lost because if you lose muscle and you lose fat you have less weight to carry around right to your metabolic rate goes down just from that but it goes down way more than it should. Is your the first prong of your body self defense system to stop

I'm starving yourself is to become more efficient we do the word efficiency and we think wow that's that's a good thing I think about if your body fat levels were a gas tank and you you had a car okay you would not want to be efficient right you won't have one of the old Suburbans it was like half a mile per gallon right you know what the Prius cuz you can go away longer so going back to that study on her ass they became so much more efficient with her food and this is the second part of your body self defense system is to not only slow down your metabolic rate while you're dieting but to start activating system that deal with restorage what you actually start over it again if you ever done a long diet or known somebody who did it and then they start eating again it's like everything sticks to you it's like you just did it's like you like her liking 5 lb from one day and you were like oh it's water well water doesn't stay around for 6 months so it's not water

that is your body preparing all these systems don't even like enzymes that deal with fat storage while you're dieting actually go up cuz it's preparing your body for East Orange and then even probably the most interesting thing is see how it all falls back on the importance of tracking macros which completely ignored with guys coming off of a fighter Fitness compared to let yourself blow up really quickly body is set up to be anabolic or to gain muscle on your setup for the way most people diet which is kind of mean you know you probably around people who do this yo yo stuff it's a lot of people they they they almost 30 pounds on a ketogenic diet regain 50 right now the real problem is in the problem is

if we used to think adipose tissue is like a sponge right so if you take too much you just threw more in there right soaked up extra nutrients and then if you started if you want to call or text you or losing weight it just gave up some of its nutrients y'all like the guy in Fast & Fury in the 65 days and didn't die because you had so much so much fat

we don't know that body fat fits every definition of a man in the endocrine system it's a tissue it is an actual organ because it sends out hormonal signals in a great homeowner signals to the brain behind brain doctor at nucleus it is integrated in all of metabolism in a big way and typically you have the way we gain fat and lose fat is based on the fat cell size so you have a set number of fat cells and the other expand where they shrink pretty intuitive

I wish now you can create more fat cells if you become so obese that the few literally can't stuff any more fat in there right so obese people have fat cell hyperplasia a lot of times

what's really interesting is people at the end of a diet when your when your thyroid hormone is lower your sympathetic nervous system tone is lower this unique hormonal Malu if you overfeed to rapidly there's a researcher name Aquino Colorado that show that you can actually increase your fat cell number if you overfeed to rapidly right after a diet that this was in Rats full disclosure but Dawson Play Store now you're increasing your body's but it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective your body's like shit we had this famine we don't want to deal with this shit again we want to make sure that we can store as much stuff as possible so we're going to create some this dude is rapidly overfeeding where did Peyton do fat cells to make sure we're not going to miss any of this energy we're going to capture every single bit of it makes a lot of sense you're but you're talking about weight loss and weight gain but you were specifically discussing hormonal changes in the body due to the ketogenic diet that are beneficial and that these hormonal changes and

changes to the way that the brain functions would be a benefit of following that diet versus just working on calories count by doctor married

so I said that I don't think it's actually out yet but we get jacked

ketones are there there are certified definition have a metabolic superiority as a as a fuel source you know and they really cross the blood-brain barrier they can largely replaced glucose as a primary energy source in your brain under. Of fasting or could you drink diet so that that offers a lot of advantages to someone dieting because it makes you resilient like the guy that fasted 382 days his glucose was was like 30 on the 21st fatal for most people but is ketones are elevated so he did not feel hunger so that that is like the Cahill studies George Cahill studies at Harvard Medical School where they they injected insulin to increase

I had to call him on the phone he was living away in 2012 but we had a number of conversations before he passed away and I was amazed that he got ethics approval to do that because someone can use of insulin but was fascinating that they were asymptomatic for hypoglycemia at a level of hypoglycemia that's typically University fatal and they were also very cognitively lucid and that was a dramatic demonstration at the time it was thought that in his brain could only use glucose so this is a paradigm shift in the way we understand Concerta fuel utilization particular in the brain said that has major and I can go kind of on and talking about the different application to the ketogenic diet which I did on the first podcast but from my perspective of someone dieting to lose weight dieting as a lifestyle doing intermittent fasting the ketogenic diet makes intermittent fasting much easier to it that for me had tree

Mendez practical applications that allowed me I feel to excel through Academia I was able to do a lot more work not get hungry and you know we haven't trained in a while but when we Trey had last time we did that left both deadlifting 675 actually I was on the the classical that's what I was just doing it and it do you know how to get to go versus like 80 to 90% fat and I was doing that for about a year and you know deadlifting like 3 times my body weight for 4 reps you know and it didn't hurt me I can't say that would be the case for him but I also titrated the calories in that I wasn't really at a calorie deficit I lost a little bit away is hope I guess by definition I was at a calorie deficit

shines when you are in a calorie deficit Mentor for the cancer worked on safer it had published a study showing an unrestricted ketogenic diet can actually promote cancer growth and I've been a brain tumor model unrestricted meaning too much calories am I so sugary ketogenic formula of that was on the market at the time it was a sweet and I'm sorry was at the sweet and cute hydrogenated fats and another thing that creates a plethora of metabolic abnormalities and crazy when you hear about this fat acceptance thing or fat is healthy and it is so much of this going around these people they're trying to say it's okay it's fine your health

all players right I mean by definition they're pretty healthy I mean that they left they train metabolically the bloodwork kind of looks okay they have but they're okay so we talked about this earlier I'll take the heat I'm a Libertarian so if somebody says I'm fat and I'm happy and I like my life and I know what the risks are that I say knock yourself out before the judge will make somebody else happy but now the problem is if you complain about being fat that you got to do something about it otherwise you're not going to have patience for me you can be fit but fat show me they're not in shape okay for sure you're just carrying extra weight

how about Steve Bay miocic he was more than 40 lb over his fighting weight as a light heavyweight champion and he was actually heavier than steep a friend of mine yeah but yeah but performance is not the same thing as Aesthetics let me tell you what since what I look like that I looked amazing I felt like shit for me to stand up was it was I remember being on the couch and there was a stupid some show on violin. Com there was a stupid show on TV and the remote was like this goes back to meet there was a remote over there like 5 feet away I sat and watch the whole show can I just didn't feel like getting the fucking wrote so like when you jacked like that you look like you just fucking run forever break through walls hold like you know some of that like Ray Williams who is the world's best powerlifter I mean he looks obese

dude squats legit a thousand 80 lbs is a good percentage of them I carry around a lot of body fat as much as you would think any more like in the super heavyweight because like for example the ipf which is kind of the ioc recognize powerlifting Federation that I compete in their cut off for super heavy weights to 65 so if you're going to be a super heavyweight who's that dude Jamie that's right dude that's another one but like what I sent my squat record of 668 at 205 lb I mean I was in pretty good shape for that but for me to get to like 8% body fat no problem for me to get from 8% and I'm calibrating so immediately from 8% to 3% so fucking nightmare your body

there are no actual accurate measures of body fat that's the that's not really there so people not to make too much of a side tangent but people look at dexa do x-ray absorption technology and they said that's the gold standard Texas actually really finicky like I remembered Xing rats in studies we do it in duplicate so we do it twice and sometimes you'd have like differences just texting the same route twice it depends on the machine to your hydration status because water if you want a game we know the best way to gain 8 pounds of lean body mass within 5 minutes go to add extra then drink a gallon of water go back to an ex another deck so you'll be eight pounds lean body mass heavier impress your friends say it's only measuring your amount of fat tissue so anything that's not fat is lean body mass so if you guys using that too

progress if anybody use that track progress

It's only accurate relatives the measurement so your calipers me nothing for what your deck some measurements going to be in vice versa I see if I'm texting if I'm California consistently at 10% and then it drops to 8 and then 7 and I can be relatively confident that I'm losing body fat same thing for texting but you have to do it the same time of day same hydration status all that kind of stuff and I don't really use Dex up because people in order to get an accurate you have to use it like everyday for to be actual real to use pictures right now so when he was dying and got to stop there but then he would go for another in and get to a level where I thought he looked very gaunt and you looked it looks good there like seeing him in person like I'm personality I mean it was kind of freaky disgusting looking towards the end and many people who may be filed a sport but don't compete don't really real

why is what the difference between 5% or 6% and 3% its competitors from The Cure close to starvation literally your body's trying to keep you from doing that so like you think about food all the time you actually become so a friend of mine Chris Foster he's a professor now he was doing his Ph.D the same time as me and him by the friend of dr. Jeremy Lin a key and dr. Linda Russo Chris's wife Chris was doing a contest prep and I prepped him for the show and it was a six-month study of he's a natural bodybuilder so drug free and it looked at the hormonal responses his weight his body fat and even like measures of mood for this is like the most I was a beast like 260 or something I mean not natural drug-free bodybuilder off-season dude but he and his mood measurements for measuring like

psychopath yeah it just changes your mood like they're actually like trying to peek for a fight at the same time they feel the Boatyard shit it's ridiculous they're so focused on the protocols that I've still some good ones out there but some of the stuff I've seen like I wish I could talk to somebody in that and that wrong because it's so it's not too much bro science 4 times and then your body starts to reject it and you guys have to go up and wait like you were talking about explain to you why is testosterone write a 20 but his is basil requirements of Keller requirement the crazy thing is

I kind of view of metabolic adaptation the body self defense system full full disclosure some people criticize about that they say well if you look at 15% relative to the the whole adaptation and but if you look at Chris's numbers I think on average that's probably right on an average night with an average person you take somebody trying to get really lean or someone who yo-yo diet for somebody to crash diets and now you know if again is proportionate if you challenge your body with something extreme it's going to respond in an extreme fashion so every case study we have on natural bodybuilder and there's about 10 of them now who look at their contest preparation in coming out of it and I use them to just cuz this is the wrong I grew up in

shows that they're hypokinetic by the time that they're at stage so I naturally me I actually like have a pretty naturally high testosterone level like when I ever every time ever since I'm 16 years old I've got tested I've been like over 800 if I'm eating enough when I was at contest I was under 300 this is part of how your body fights you your body does not want you to be that lean but if you're kind of raining this back into the discussion this is why I talk about why it's so important to pick something that's sustainable for you as an individual because if you do this shit where you yo-yo diet or you don't come out of it appropriately it will fuck you up I mean we've we've all I think females especially like a lot of females now because especially in physics Sports there's a lot of really bad coaching starvation diets for women

. which area in of itself doesn't seem to have negative Health consequences in terms of longevity or does he have anything like that but yeah that back you know they don't care that this is white like I really start with sustainability and then from there I go to okay what so if we got what to say now can we get a little better can we do a little more fiber like I think in general you know I criticize paleo diets because I think their validation for their model is absolutely fucking stupid Foundation is the evolutionary validation in the fact that we didn't drink milk and we didn't eat beans in this kind of thing to buy coffee but what we were doing

to be what makes sense and what is healthy now like if you look at studies on Dairy almost all studies show people who take Andheri are healthier better bone density more lean body mass your body fat are there a lot of people think that there is bad for you but yeah protein in Dairy proteins that help the body so I know when I am okay with very fat I can get like you know hundred grams of dietary fat but if I'm if I drink a whey protein shake special at night I wake up all congested and you know like I have an allergy to wake concentrate concentrate well and I think it's a spectrum right so it's not like

have it or you don't I think you know there's is to Spectrum and Bovine protein is kind of viewed Forint body I mean once it enters the bloodstream it can only if it interests the bloodstream because of digestion is working properly you're not going to sit in a few taken up insulin like you can basically go hypoglycemic if you it was really into it that's why you inject B12 even something that's more can get through the sugar so this is an issue with people's individual dietary sensitivity they if they've got some kind of

he got Sonoma your your your injunctions are tight okay so your small intestine true test until like fingers and they pick up nutrient there's a really General anchor that holds that dysfunctional with that that can allow certain nutrients through the wall and and that one is Shay two bodies and lures but Holly is celiac and she so she has gluten don't like you will know it because she will have a huge inflammatory response but in people who have normal digestion that just doesn't happen but going back to the whole thing was going to say is even though I I disagree with their relevance if you told me okay you take their General recommendations limit sugar eat more Whole Foods eat high-protein I think in general that's pretty good recommendations for most people I just as you said I'm anti bullshit so I'm not going to let you make claims about why something works when that's not why it works

so we look at like the differences and diets like I think what I would say generally to people is here's the great news as far as fat loss goes and health markers if you want to lose weight

if you eat if you control your calories so you can calorie deficit you eat enough protein because protein up spare lean body mass and is thermogenic so it increases your energy output then you can try to do whatever you want with carbs and fats and whatever you prefer and you'll still lose the same amount of weight and get about all the health benefits but it has to be something that you can sustain because if you can't sustain it you're going to put all that weight back on that's what the research data shows so dumb to lose weight right so now obviously you know what you can't eat the deficit forever right because then you would starve yourself to death but the body correct that like you as you drop body weight your metabolic rate slows down when we talk about losing weight and in maintaining it right so eating in a maintenance so eating basically

the behavior you use in the style of dieting you use you have to continue that if you want to maintain it so if you like ketogenic you like you to do it you like it and I think you're a big fan of meat if you can sustain that you don't like people out there so my God people project you're going to get cancer in your going to do this and you going to do that most of those health benefits are just from Not Having excess body fat excess body fat in the metabolic test regulations of a metabolic type syndrome that's what cause 90% of these problems which is why I get crazy when people say that fat is healthy so we haven't we are reactionary culture so you see this all the time so we had okay you can eliminate saturated fat you got eliminate dietary fat and just eat grains and limit your protein

and we got fatter and so the reaction that was don't need any carbs saturated fat isn't bad for you in pack eat as much saturated fat as you can it's great put butter in your coffee like know that there's good data to show that

the research say that I've seen in my opinion shows that saturated fat absolutely was demonized it's not as bad as we thought

it's see if you eat too much of it it's not great either especially with carbohydrates oh absolutely that's your liver production of saturated fats as well right when your body gets you a fat burning stage and then on top of that you pile on carbohydrates then you buddy wants to store those carbohydrates is the calories are in a carbohydrate you burn those carbohydrates so carbohydrate if you say well why does if you don't store, so I talk about this in my book cuz people will go too far to each direction to say what you said you don't use your Harley store any carbohydrate is actual fat why do we eat zero fat and mostly carbohydrate well then your body your body is not dumb your body we didn't you didn't get here today to get through evolution in tens of thousands years of hard you know living

everybody being stupid so your body can wrap up to Novo lipogenesis so that you can create fat from carbohydrate and fat get slow and there was a research study or a meta-analysis done by Kevin Hall who's and I ate researcher and they showed that if you equate calories you get a small extra benefit from fat restriction versus carb restriction on fat loss so you get about 26 grams extra fat loss per day calories are created protein acquainted if you restrict fat versus car now before everybody goes crazy that's probably due to a little bit of in efficiencies in ramping up to Novo lipogenesis because there's it takes energy to move that system but 26 grams of fat loss per day to me is not a physiological like I don't care about that. That's nothing compared to okay if you like low carb better don't worry about losing extra 26 grams of fat if you like

car better and you can sustain that then do low-carb the difference between losing weight and Optimal Performance and then Optimal Performance mentally and hormone Ali versus Optimal Performance physically in terms of like athletic athletic for suits so here's to hear something else that's in a playing football on a ketogenic diet necessarily

well maybe if they're overweight that they could be beneficial but I think it would decrease his performance and less he goes through the keto adaptation face but there's a lot of that when you were a teenager your I would say your carbohydrate tolerance is very high I want mine was very high I could eat pasta that I could not eat now and I just simply couldn't so I think as we age I would say are carbohydrate tolerance decreases with age because our metabolic Machinery is not as hungry for for glucose I mean we're set up and hormonal E R insulin sensitivity is not as high like like pathways are reduced things like that that happens as a consequence of age it would make sense as we transition into age for longevity and for healthspan maybe not like spam at healthspan carbohydrate restriction make sense in even in some cases the ketogenic diet makes sense you know but if you look at the okay so I have

to push back on that and I'm not disagreeing with you

damn if you look at my longevity data the actual people who were describing it as an also a means of of because people put on weight at the age where the low carb and went to drink diet that becomes a practical strategy to create a sustainable calorie deficit for losing weight sustaining that and also if you elevate ketones overtime a lot of the new research that's coming out you know over the Last 5 Years ketones is not just a superior source of energy metabolically but it also has epigenetic effects on the body and activate Gene Pathways that can confer resistance against oxidative stress that longevity pathway is an anti-inflammatory password no not in the context of deft if you could feed ketones take a ketone supplement and it activates just simply elevating

hydroxybutyrate functions as a histone deacetylase inhibitor and can activate if you will Gene programs that can confer resistance against many different things oxidative stress Pathways and also activate or suppress and inflammatory pathway that's linked with many age-related chronic diseases and autoimmune Pathways it decreases the activation of the nlrp3 inflammatone living longer you talking about that epidemiology study that was like a questionnaire and people what they ate over a long period of time highly criticized study habits and there's a lot of which is why it's so hard to say it's hard to say that it does study shows that if you eat carbs vs. fat do you you I didn't say when was cause and effect is sort of cited in this piece of evidence because I don't

because if we're going to give the argument I want to get the whole argument I was playing Devil's Advocate I don't think that necessarily if you need a low-carb diet it's going to cause you a little shorter life I don't believe that but I think it's important to put all the data out there because what I see a lot of is people just cherry-picking and I kill you and then it just gets crazier. I think some of the animal work is almost more reliable because you have an inbred strain of animal and you have very tight control freely living human you know he's doing many different things and there's genetic variability but with animals that it may not always be predict it's informative but not always predictive and I think some of the the data I read some of the human studies and become more confused but going back to the animal data I'm almost more comfortable with

some of these outcomes for animal studies so one thing I would bring up that I think it's really important is we have I think we're all getting to this point people out there I think that there's like this perfect. That's going to cure everything all rounds

the fact the uncomfortable truth in the fact of the matter is that if one diet is and I don't know they specifically but my guess is if one diet is a better for cancer it might be worse for heart disease or if one diet is better Bissell resistance baby sports for cancer is your space at then this is why I go back to those big picture things up most of the health benefits just come from having more muscle lift weights if you want that lift weights you if you're if you're debating about diets and you're not lifting weights you are fucking missing the point okay cuz that is stryker's so that's awesome awesome so somebody criticize me for one day I was like you know what's great about my job I can say fuck as much as I want and no one's going to fire me so that is great

but the big picture things lift weights create more lean body mass be active that's a huge think even if you're overweight if you're active you're you're going to live fine on the whole you going to live longer than thin person who's inactive and then control your weight so if you can even if you can get to a normal weight and maintain it or so I filled the body fat and maintain it or if you're high body fat if you can get to a lower body fat and maintain it night that's 90% the battle all this other stuff is 5% about it we're going back and forth about and that's why I don't want to miss the contacts cuz when people like a I'll pick on him cuz he was going to ask what was Gary towels but I am happier we got done for this people like Tarrytown say things like carbs are are are causing obesity just carbs

you create this problem where if people don't like eating high-fat diet or a low-carb diet and they can't stand it they just feel like they're big failure and they just quit because what's the point of carbs are causing fat and I can't stop eating carbs what am I going to do with the discipline important people flexibility

it usually improves adherence and you talking about from the standpoint of you coaching people I would like to see is I would like to see a diet that's protein and calorie protein calorie control if anybody knows of one that doesn't let me know protein and calorie control and then let people self-select high-carb or high-fat what do you prefer let them self select and see how well they do and I bet you would see improvements in appearance in both groups job you were going too well I think a diet strategy that controls your appetite and does not have your appetite controlling you which I think it's accomplished with the ketogenic diet that's all so you know one that's a well-formulated one that's controls you know that has fiber and adequate protein is a strategy that allows you to be far less fixated on food because you're not as hungry and you could decrease your meal frequency so if there's any other people out there that are probably busy people CEOs of come

the students or whatever that simply do not have time to prepare and eat meals to when they get hungry so by reducing meal frequency you can increase your productivity and I think you're kind of coaching your body to be a better fat burning I think there's only benefits so when you are on a ketogenic diet you are storing more fat but you are burning more fast so think about your adipose tissue as little bags which have fat coming into them and fat leaving them in the fat oxidation pathways are elevated and when I eat a ton of fat at night before I go to bed I am like some people carb load I'm like fat hoodie at night and I'm pulling off those fat stores during the day through my eyes I think about it like that so instead of just you know carving up at night time at I-10. I would wake up hungry I would probably dump insulin and and then wake up with a hypoglycemic Cravings in the middle

if I did that day that I want to be as productive as possible I will not have my first meal which would be typically a ketogenic meal around 4 p.m. and so what time do you eat at night I will start I'll do a small meal like at work and then I ate my big meal at about 7 maybe 7 and then snack throughout the night and maybe eat within you know I start eating at 4 p.m. and I finish eating in about 10 p.m. so you basically start eating at the end of your day

and that's very liberating for me so and I didn't even notice was possible but that's like back 10 years ago I didn't know it was possible that have that amount of control over my appetite and actually feel as lucid and his energetic and be able to you know get with Lane and do deadlifts with him and I couldn't maintain my my performance in my strength in the gym I don't feel like I'm an outlier either so I think that anecdotes are good because I don't know it's cause us to look at things but I can tell you like so for example I usually four times a day and I protein right now I'm in a gaming face so I'm trying to purposely gain weight hopefully some lean body mass I'm coming back from an injury so try to regain some Eileen by yes I'm eating about 400 to 450 grams of carbohydrate today there were times when I'll go 7 8 hours I won't eat and I don't really hungry so I mean there's 16 hours

I don't know but I don't think I would I go some some nights I'll sleep and I'll wake up and I'll go 1213 hours like I'll go in sometimes and and I don't usually get hungry now but getting that she is

just well if you look at some of the things that I'll just agree with her or the idea that info has he's big fluctuations and you become hypoglycemic in that causes overfeeding and some people that's the case but most people if they're eating a specially with a higher protein diet that doesn't usually happen the population most people are not bodybuilders and the population of people that lame mostly communicates with are on the border of being metabolic elite elite and also have a very high carb pomerantz if your a bodybuilder with a large amount of lean body mass you are pretty much metabolically set up to be a very have a high-carb tolerant to go to general population is not like that because I disagree on I don't think the people are more or less carb tolerant I think that people have sore and faster metabolic rates so if you have fast metabolic rate you'll be more chill carb tolerant by default because you can just

more calories in a bodybuilder that's 220 lb

if you look at somebody who's on the ketogenic diet they're actually by definition of cork tolerance their carbohydrate intolerant because if you challenge them with a bolus of glucose they claim they can't clear it so but that that's that's that's just cuz what are adapted to write but they're fat adapted yeah they don't bother to look outside of it going to the gym which to me I was going to stop and eat before I forget I think I did eat but it was very normal for me to go eat on the way to the gym how is like you she hates training fed she wants to be fasted she feels better that way but that's the difference differences

did to that as well on what you're used to so maybe a psychological thing but some people may just do better that we are blood is diverted to your digestive system and processes and at the last blood for the muscle so you're expending energy to digest breakdown and assembly is pretty debunked a logical concept that you are diverting blood restore oh yeah oh yeah it's so I think a small meal actually can be beneficial and so but it's not like you're using it was carbohydrates during the that they see that performance isn't worse and that you don't like is the performance basilica

does a limitation of blood flow to the muscle okay just do better if there faster have small meals again it may be a psychological thing but I like to feel like I've had a lot of food and I'm fully fueled for a Long training session but some people doing something like you too but you would probably throw up maybe I did it very briefly awesome sport can't work on a grant I can't not supposed to talk about guns but what if I go to the range now my groups are tighter I like had better control bad if I go in and it said stay I'm just not as focused at my vision my vision is not

fasted 16 hours but this is this is the hard thing with anecdote because we can't tease out whether or not that's that is an actual physiological thing or whether you just feel better and you think you'll do better so you do better as the brain is unbelievably powerful there was a study and I'm I'm a butcher it because I can't remember exactly but they they took people who had legit allergy problems and they gave them a sugar pill and they said this will improve your allergies it should not have done anything

over half the people reported their symptoms got better and 30% actually physiologically got better because their brain was telling them get better like it's pretty crazy so that's probably the best diet for you might be the diet you can stick to it just feel real positive about right because you feel like this might be so what's going on with lot of this low carb stuff that people say they feel so fantastic because there's some sort of a placebo effect that's possible I think part of it is too that's why I don't know give me more confidence when I can look at it okay to drink diet and see an injectable you know objective increase or decrease in a parameter than I gain confidence but here's the thing I'm not saying that's a bad thing if you feel good about it but just don't try to get on Twitter and tell everybody all you're going to gain fat the deficit cuz you're eating carbs

what are the what are the number one characteristics of cancer survivors is that they're actually they have a belief in God they believe that they're going to make it through that now some people cause or effect some people won't be argue religion to argue well they believe in God and so God is helping them the other argument to that is they believe that they are going to make it through there and so they have a better likelihood of doing it so you're bringing the people that believe and believe in God and I think that's a great thing and that's why I believe that you know why I'm a person of Faith but I also believe that if you have faith in the methodology to at the the patients that have communicated with me that actually believe that this approach is going to work and then they reach that actual therapeutic state of ketogenic diet have results that kind of defy what you would expect scientifically so I believe it's working

physiologically and also psychologically there is immuno psycho therapy right or Immunology so our brain can actually control many different physiological processes including our immune system and that that is something that's underappreciated understudied and that really needs to be studied in terms of eating a large meal before training Shirley your body has to use up some of the resources to digest you don't think that it's blood flow to the muscle do you think that Lindy bunk'd

they show that the blood flow to the muscle is not a limiting if you had a meal before you train ok now

the thing it but some people don't like that it's a very individual thing it probably maybe a psychological thing with me I'm not I'm not I understand that I'm an idiot like everybody else out there right so I'm subject to bias and psychological influence like anybody else I just use that to my advantage if I feel good about it why would I not do it

now if you train in the morning to do that like heading to the gym first thing in the morning Holly tries to stop me because that I usually go to the bathroom for like 5 times but in the morning I'm going to go straight in a train but one of the things that going back to so many scientists Miss is that context like most people Miss contacts but scientists even miss contacts so the first experimental biology study biology Symposium we ever went to there was a poster with a fat people or they fed them a high carb diet and then at the end of six weeks they challenged up with a hundred grams of glucose and look how long it took for them to clear that glucose the ketogenic diet people would have been worse than like type 2 diabetics at clearing Lucas okay where is he bleeding a high carb diet. It just fine right now if you if you just looked at these numbers has. You oh my God you're diabetic know that's what they were adapted to and I challenged

show me the poster I said for all you kids didn't night people who hate me on Twitter I defend the ketogenic diet when it is time to be defended I said the girl

if you had fed a high-fat meal to these people you would have seen the same thing in Reverse if you would have said a high-fat meals people who are out of the ketogenic diet and then a high carb diet you would have seen really elevated triglycerides LDL cholesterol LDL cholesterol and people who are carbon acted because it wasn't being cleared because that's not what your adapted to miss that whole context Lane has a good analogy in his book that book where if you have a factory military Factory that's making planes and then it has to switch over to making ships right so you it takes a lot of time to change third of all the processes that take place in the same thing is happening I mean you're giving your body a different fuel source so it has to ramp the enzymatic Machinery the pathways of regulatory Pathways and in the Transporters even to basically used as fuels

frustrating things online want to hear it like nonsense people that did these internet are quote experts talking about the negative aspects of the ketogenic diet that they tried it and I felt weak like what do you mean you tried it yet it for a day to try for 3 days. For a month like the fuck out of here you think it's so important to study and think you have a study in your book actually that shows in the gym you basically say the ketogenic diet can hurt your performance in the gym so and you reference a race walking study for like 3 weeks or something like that so I think we came back around and said that it's probably fine for me I did not feel myself after I took me about 3 to 4 months but then you got to realize that there's a learning curve to doing the ketogenic diet right so if I go back to my notes I mean my performance in the gym

and just general well-being took about 3 or 4 months do you use an app to check my emails or anything I did I'm a creature of habit so we basically just buy the same food all the time and I can I measure things on scales and stuff just as a scientist so I can look at some powder on a scale and do 250 mg of plus-or-minus you know so I measured things out to where I can look at a plate and basically give you the macros pretty tight and that's yeah and I would but I just want to do it for about 8 weeks so you could argue that I didn't do it long enough but my thing is like all my blood markers are healthy I didn't see so I didn't kill at maintenance and I didn't see really much improvement anything everything kind of stayed the same know what what you want feel different energy

this would have been probably

after my bodybuilding show before I got back into powerlifting as hell would have been some time like 2012 ish did you like post about it and stuff I want to go back early cuz I didn't want to really like get the wrath of anybody on me at the time but then I just like the flexibility of having some carbs

you know if

if I was going to commit to it as a lifestyle then that would be fine but unless you're willing to again if that's not something you're willing to stick to for life

you have to rethink if you want to do it or not but there's some benefit in going on and off ketogenic diets correct

I so if you do a ketogenic diet and you want to stay in a state of ketosis the days that I do intermittent fasting now which I didn't do like 5 years ago I don't necessarily do the cutie I do higher protein low carb but my macros are not ketogenic typically not all the time sometimes they are but they're different like you could do intermittent fasting with a car based diet and still get ketones you know by the end of your your fast you could do low carb you keep do ketogenic I actually think it's it's a little bit better to be metabolically flexible so I'll throw in I tend to eat a lot of vegetables and then in throwing some fruits to eat if you days a week where it may kick me out of ketosis but during the middle of the day when I need to be at my best I pretty much always I'm running a low to moderate ketones during the day and I can do that with different strategies now you know with my body cuz I don't use that kick you out of ketosis at night time

a dark chocolate one or two things of dark chocolate and which is maybe 15 20 grams of carbs and maybe a half cup of blueberries and then a big salad and some vegetables typically drink green so if you measure your blood your ketones drop below what level 5 and I typically don't even measure at night but I wake up in the morning and I might be about 5 and then that goes up throughout the day so middle part of the day I'm typically running won between 1 to 2 sometimes 3 million more for only effective in the early stages of ketosis a cracked because in the beginning you spill out a lot of ketones in your urine but as you increase Ketone transport and utilization overtime less of them end up in your urine how much time is it depends on the person but after about 2 or 3 weeks you may see last of a color change on the urine strips even if you didn't change your diet is there another affair

did methods other than the pricking the finger I think the blood you know Abbott Labs makes the Precision Xtra there's the keto Mojo which I also use we use in the lab books that are keto Mojo is a blood measurement in glucose measurement device that's essentially cuz I have a corner the market they they basically allow you to check your ketones for a dollar a strip instead of a few Note 3 or $4 or $5 but it's still pricking your finger gets its pricking your finger I don't use the device I actually use a syringe and just take a running start and got my finger now it doesn't I got calluses like you do on your fingers I'm kind of used to it but the urine strip is actually pretty good relative marker and the Siemens multistix SG will measure ketones and then nine other things like that measure kidney function and and you know your blood glucose and things like that so I recommend

$0.25 to strip and then there's the breath ketonix meter you blow into it and it measures breath acetone and the level is also another breath acetone measurement system yeah and you know breath acetone highly correlated the fat oxidation so if your breath acetone is high you are burning a lot of fat so I was in there an issue with people that are in the state of ketosis to get pulled over for drunk driving lawyers contact if there's some cases going on right now and they wanted me to weigh in on the breathalyzer because of the what would you say acetone with the technology and if you I know that if you drink alcohol and do a breath Ketone meter you can kind of pin it depending on what meter you're using if you're using a breath that's a for breath Ketone meter if you use if you have a breath alcohol measurement in your in a state of ketosis

I have not seen that depending on the device that you'll have a false positive if that's your question some devices can it depends on the device so what one thing I'll I'll bring up cuz you said well you work with these kind of metabolic elite elite people so one of the problems I say what you're doing where you kind of take yourself up to the point where you're sort of getting out of ketosis and then going back in that's probably fine but most people are going to do it that way they're going to be like oh I had a cheesecake or couldn't take anymore two heads Pizza whatever that's really bad you see probably people who intermittent fast decrease that window time and over-consume yeah that's a big problem again like if you saw the fasting show that you lose the same amount of calories are the same you do the same and Away by the fat maybe might be at risk for a little bit more lean body mass lost just cuz you're

protein synthesis left less often but you do need to have a little bit lower insulin levels it seems like now whether or not that's again beneficial based on the research that we talked about like we insulin sensitivity people bring up things like at apogee and inflammation and I again I kind of get the song if you if you just calorically restrict you increase on top of G and you increase or decrease inflammation Honda decrease and certain amino acids glucose and insulin and you which Eve those biomarker States a more significant level doing intermittent fasting then you would end they are the autopsy regular can you send me the reason for a locust look so if you are eating

about the day 3 times a day like you know your blood blue sea levels will be keeping in contact with 24 hours and see if your if your fasting all this time you're burning so much body fat will yeah but think by definition if you're eating less at least times you have to eat more at this time if you're keeping calories the same and so during that time post-meal you're going to store a lot more fat you're going to have much higher insulin and Maybe not maybe lower overall up a fast metabolism overshooting and those calories have to go somewhere over 24 hours you don't see differences in Fat Loss or fat game and I would be interested in the inflammation stuff stuff cuz again killer work restriction in of itself increases decreases inflammation increases the top of the interesting enough the one of the sugar studies they did with with higher sugar with still calorically restricted they showed decreases inflammation

so it's inflammation is largely an issue of caloric restriction or the excess no I think it's a calorie restriction of fact it's born in elimination if I give you a plate of french fries like 200 grams of french fries you need a lot of calories if I give you 200 grams of meat even a real fatty meat it's not nearly the same like you're going to be much more satiated from the protein like you can only eat so much meat you know and again like if you don't want to go too far down the carnivore diet whole butt

the the stuff I see you with people yet do I think you can eat meat and improve your blood markers absolutely absolutely course you could sell it of only eat meat you don't need vegetables but there's some really tight men analyses that have been done looking at colorectal cancer and low fiber intake and I would not be comfortable recommending people not eat you know enough vegetables and fiber but I feel uncomfortable eating a steak you know where a burger without like something like broccoli or Salad I think you need gate many of the potentially carcinogenic compounds that are in red meat and that's a whole nother debate but I think you essentially about meat consumption with vegetables get like with brats

broccoli raisin salad like I don't personally would not eat red meat so full cuz I get accused on Twitter of being a car guy and I'm not I was my research was funded by the egg board beef beef beef something another sorry guys and the national Dairy Council so you know you guys out there who again you're just taking my word for it but who think that like Industries the evil thing that comes in and controls everything I met one person they hit my entire PhD from the funding sources and I met them for a little 30 seconds they were at a biology and they said thank you for the grant oh great great great job thank you that was it now I'm not saying that there isn't nefarious things that can happen but like what I heard when I like the show with Mina everything was about who funded it and this and that and but that's why they have to

what was those things on papers and also this is why science science is self-regulating because somebody is going to repeat your study and if they don't find the same thing you found your going to be in trouble I get criticized for conflict of interest but I've seen that on social media so I would probably say I am not a medical doctor or even a registered dietitian a PhD scientist so don't take my word is medical or nutrition advice we do our research is funded now I buy the Department of Defense and Office of Naval Research but also by companies that actually developed Ketone food products and also exhaust just getting supplements and our University owns the rights to those patents I don't have any products myself or come we have a company Keystone Technologies and ketonutrition is the information website but at this time we have no products but the university licenses are intellectual property and products are made out of that and I get patent royalties and I

the Baton Rouge. He's back into a research so buying various exhaust and ketones products are on the market can come back and help support the science in the application I I don't you know I tend not to state that but I get called out for not saying that so I think it's important for him cuz he's actually writing a chapter of my new book so we can have a chapter about to get it today. If you're going to do it this is how to do it right so the new book about lost forever she was plugged and he said I just want all the money that I make from the book to go back into the lab

so nice like that Sammy has a similar with froilan with his line too I know His prophets you know the prophet that he takes he puts back and nobody's unbiased anybody that says there are is full of crap we all have our biases will have things that we think we're better now not sure but I think the fundamental if you if you meet a scientist and hopefully I equip myself well in this and I think Don does as well is that one you have a open mind but not to open that your brain falls out and to you care more about getting the right answer than being right when I went to do my PhD I was eating 8 meals a day I was eating 300 grams of protein a day I was looking for more reasons to eat more protein and eat it more frequently when I left my PhD I pay for a day and a little bit less protein and less frequently and your because that was Factory to the London broils and washing it down

with the product metrics with hmb and it like in between meals like back in their mid darling I did your phone that was brutal change the way I looked at the research they don't like either I believe this or I don't and if I believe this I can't justify XYZ go back to the epidemiology studies would win in regards to a colon rectal cancer they're really haven't been any studies on people that just eat meat though right you're talking about people who eat meat on a regular basis and that usually is a standard American diet a lot of other bullshittin their sugarbun they just fascinated to see some sort of long-term studies on some of these are very strict carnivore diet I'm really fascinated by this cuz I'm seeing all these people have all these benefits but I am I've got skeptical hippo face every step of the way and like I'm not

don't care if it's a long and then to create a caloric restriction site and somebody says you know what I've tried every other day diet out there I've tried eat high-fiber and I tried it was like it but I can stick to this and I can create and I can lose some fat that I want to say okay well maybe that's the best diet for you but I just know so many people that are benefiting from it and not just the thought of that on the podcast before I know a lot of other people and if I'm collecting blood work along the way I mean those doctors can write case reports so I'd be glad to assist in it in case report of people are tracking all their blood markers on doing the most people aren't though that's what's going on most of these Knuckleheads just eating meat and saying they feel great and that is a war on vegetables remember that people don't discount psychology people are driving very positively about it because the flavor of the month yeah I know hate towards carnivore I don't know who the doctor

Baker yeah but you know like if I have dogs I mean my dogs are out and eat around the nose to get cats are carnivores at so cats interested we are one thing that yeah they don't there is a cartilage pretend they don't tolerate them all to become obese but

I think the thing is that I'm not I don't believe in anyone. I'm not trying to sell anyone. I would like to sell you on a ketogenic diet I really want to see you do it for like 4-5 months to see if you were experiencing the same benefits as him I agree with that totally and I think I could probably put together a meal plan with keto cookies cookies cookies and it was fine I felt fine but you must in the stuff except for that much whole lot like I had I think I would consider them in significant changes ice I maintained or did you measure in

from moderate to high Turns Super 8 weeks into it and that's about the point I was kind of feeling crummy and stuff but so I actually about three it was kicking in but I was hard to fill out and then to learning curve to see if I can get to see if I can get the same benefits just by restricting my calories and keeping high protein and I love saying benefits in terms of cognitive function in terms of science I would say you could look at PubMed everything from polycystic ovary syndrome to acne Type 2 Diabetes Type 1 diabetes now that's a little bit controversial migraines you know a whole host of neurological disorders

simply because beta-hydroxybutyrate is I believe sort of from there's an objective truth that it's a superior metabolic Fuel and if I'd had millimolar levels in your blood that's a significant amount of energy in your blood that your tissues can you how are you defining Superior metabolic fuel the Delta G of ATP hydrolysis in the heart is in hand so essentially you're making more ATP for a given amount of oxygen. Maybe you are more metabolically efficient Ashley but I don't think in the context of fat loss but it's also enhancing insulin sensitivity and simply feeding ketones independent of carbohydrate restriction increases fat oxidation in the weather Thursday in studies to look at like a ketogenic diet versus a non q-jet carb diet and they showed it basically by going ketogenic you reduce overall insulin

the curve by 20% that was the the number they got. If I was type 1 diabetic absolutely this is not medical advice is to me. I actually when I used to give talks I would say for these things but if you're type 1 diabetic you want to avoid it as much as possible cuz there's something called diabetic ketoacidosis but like my student Andrew koutnik he has a Blog on keto nutrition. Orgy go to it and it's a very detailed description about carbohydrate restriction and managing your blood glucose and it goes into really into the weeds if you want to reset you used to say that if your type 1 diabetic you wouldn't I did because it was very controversial diabetic ketoacidosis

no insulin at all right and I guess maybe just going back to a normal person when they fast or they do the ketogenic diet it increases fat oxidation in the liver and that fat oxidation actually accumulates is he okay and that creates ketones acetoacetate and beta hydroxybutyrate and it curves in the context of insulin suppression but you're still have normal insulin but it's very low right and then when your ketones get elevated you spill some out in the urine and that's how you eliminate them your muscles your brain burns them and if they get really high you have a an increase and it's a small increase in insulin release when your key don't get real high and that insulin ramps down fat oxidation the liver and decreases Ketone production so and there's other things too but I don't want to get too much into the weeds but you're a very a normal person is finely tuned to create to maintain physiological ketones within a certain range with nutritional ketosis with Diabetic Type 1 diabetes that's completely thrown out the window so we

insulin being there the absence of insulin essentially creates runaway kid at Genesis in your ketones become very very high in the contacts a very high glucose so you have high glucose and high ketones it creates a metabolic disruption at creates an acidotic State and electrolyte imbalances and coma and death Witcher not going to happen in people who are healthier just doing a ketogenic diet type 1 diabetes if you for example my student using his example maybe he was used in 20 or 30 I use of insulin add a right and then starts carbohydrate restriction and even the modified ketogenic diet and can reduce that insulin requirement

2456 I use a day so literally knocking it down you know to 20% of what he was change your perception when you did not recommend it be all does Harvard study that are basically looked at a group called type 1 grit on Facebook there's a group called type 1 Credit and it's got thousands of people who use a low carbohydrate approach not necessarily a ketogenic diet approach some are but it's it's very carbohydrate restricted in terms of what a doctor and endocrinologist would prescribe for a type 1 diabetic can we maybe look like suicide to some people and low carbohydrate dramatically decrease as your insulin requirements and if you look at your continuous blood glucose you know recordings over the course of a week those numbers are much much tighter and that's going to pay huge dividends in the long run when it comes to longevity and health span and you know the potential for going blind or decreasing

kidney function you know by these huge postprandial spikes essentially if your type 1. You're always chasing your glucose with insulin injections right or an insulin pump if your carbohydrate restricted year basically not it's it's very liberating because you're not your dependence on insulin is far far less you know some controversy really some people have gotten completely off of insulin I would not recommend that most people are actually doing that so I think highly not recommend I hear this from critics critics of the ketogenic diet and this is BS criticism again here's be defending the ketogenic diet is it will you Cuba Cuba come people who are healthy diabetic ketoacidosis that is not going to happen because by definition if your ketones are high in your helmet in your relatively healthy not type 1 diabetic your blood glucose is low

it's when both are elevated that it's dangerous okay and if you are a type 1 diabetic like Andrew just using a little bit of insulin to get that bass line to get your glucose levels down to a base light level and then you using a carb restricted diet that creates ketones while your blood glucose is at a normal basal level that again not a doctor

DOT medical advice that should not be dangerous right now over the years because he's a powerlifter and he's a super big dude he's like 250 lb like it when he goes to the gym he has learned that he can pulse a little bit of insulin and maybe wrap up is protein or maybe even take a little bit of carbohydrates but you know the next day he still doing low carb throughout the day but he's learned to leverage in as a type 1 diabetic you have that Advantage right cuz you can manipulate insulin for body composition alterations and things like that so he he has learned to adjust his protein to maximize as a sort of games and performance in the gym and but none the less he goes from he went from a strategy he transition to a strategy that would be would look to be almost suicidal from the perspective of an endocrinologist doctor managing take me to do that level of carbohydrate restriction would be and now we actually have hard science to show that that can only come

done that gets that dramatically decreases the variability of your blood glucose fluctuations throughout the day from a weekly perspective and your requirements for insulin whenever you could use less insulin to manage your blood glucose that's a good thing I would say it's very hard for a doctor to argue against and type it out using less insulin and keeping tighter numbers there's no way to argue against that so if you can fall diet so that this gets back to it here and cigar it's one of those things and you know what I would probably be fine but I enjoy having a variety of foods and I enjoy having a variety of fuels as well. I'm sure you do still like to see you try it

like this to a mutually exclusive but I like having I have a chapter in his book that's coming out that we worked you know it together and just took some of the concepts that I don't find hear of your preferences change as well I can get to your hunger pangs you're not you don't crave sugary fries carbohydrates what happened to get mad at me but where's the pizza for breakfast I had steak and eggs serving of nothing its individual and I want to to point out that if somebody likes to get it I've had people do

ketogenic diet I've had people you don't get ready for sure wasn't always get solo thinspo metabolic rates that the level of fat restriction it would take them to is probably not great for hormone levels so I tended the pool a little bit more carb relative the fat and so we didn't start out Target in Mesquite of Jennifer by the end they were so you know so you had to resort to something that actually works stop it because the clients yet you get to a point especially to get that lean I mean I'm somebody who's more average muscle mass in by pretty fast metabolism usually I had to get down to like under 2,000 calories a day to get to get ready for a show so for me I was out of my carbohydrates for briefly under a hundred grams of carbs per day in that show

sticking your fingers in measuring your glucose in the bathroom once that shit's over you just want to reward yourself as often as possible so when someone comes along with something like a ketogenic diet and go no bread no pop fuck you you just you just don't want to do it you get what you get the same the insurance in the relapse is the same whether it's ketogenic or another diet real out like regaining weight red to get your fixation what is it there's no no Foods actually create yeah they it's good so I really like I've made sandwiches with their stuff knocks me out more than anything of ketosis is just too much meat

the one that gets me high I kind of go back to

that the data is very mixed again if you look at the overall day to sit very mixed and all diets have terrible in here it's right a lot of discipline yeah but we also don't want to talk about their momentum and vibration in my car I just want to concentrate on what they're doing cuz all these people that can't do it I feel like that's contagious you start thinking about people that can I get it for you because it's something that you do but I promise I'm going to make it for you to get a drink. Clicks and oil or eating more meat clicks. That's something that you really enjoy you like the state you like it makes life easier because

both both so but but hang on hang on for some people for some people this works better because they feel better they have better in here it's other people if you say about you got some people if you say Hey you can have a cookie if they would have a screw them because they would go crazy but for other people if you allow them more flexibility during Harrington proves what I'm saying is we need to get people all the options on the table not demonize anyone diet and say hey maybe you try to figure out what word for lack of sounding bro works for you and what you can sustain go from there but see this is between agreement as well but you keep saying 10 sustain you definitely can sustain more than you do that the real problem is a giant percentage that people are weak oh I would agree with that people just quit give up don't do what they're supposed to do don't do as many wraps

supposed to do don't work out take days off just because they're lazy and those are the people that get off the diet it's a discipline issue more than anything for this thing is really big on the market right now at BAE Systems virta Health actually has a great app A system that actually coaches you through that and I think that's very helpful so I think new technologies foods and we'll make it

will increase adherence also when you have a person who knows and understands all the health benefits associated with nutritional ketosis or just low carb I think that can be a motivating factor to make them stick to the diet but for a guy like you who's rational and discipline but people are self-destructive and week they're going to need a while. What's the point of the whole conversation that was a part of the conversation to avoid those motherfuckers cuz they're going to drag you down to their mediocre level the market and I think this area for entrepreneurs to create Technologies and foods that can actually enhance it here it's so the combination like so much of it is what you willing to accept from yourself if your if you are willing to accept the Seesaw obesity thing that so many people get on on and off as you

yo effect if you willing to accept that that's fine but I just feel like it's a mental state I really do I said once you achieve a certain amount of success people start sabotaging themselves they start they start dwelling on the fact that they're doing well but how long can they sustain this it starts being a big fat mind-fuck and that's when you say like what's the stainable what's the state of a lot more than you're willing to do what sustainable is stallion bitch giving them these these these parachutes they can pull don't pull the parachute motherfucker just have a cheat day that's fine but don't get off your dad have a cheat meal eat a fucking giant Sunday throw some syrup on that bitch get that whip cream going do it once but don't live your life like that that's nonsense and I think that for

yeah I wouldn't just need anything you said we need to hear not this like this like well you can't sustain of the keto diet control same place that will give you a lot of confidence that you have control over food fasting for 3 Days to get over a bunch of weep bitches you get us together how many of them are going to keep it get how many ready to run everyday how many rear work at a very very very few your toe is outliers in particular just by virtue of what you do how many people are willing to put the work in to achieve this. That's what I like I like outliers I don't like you lyrics to I can't hear that that's dangerous so worse than carbs that's what we talk a lot

book about the haters because if you change your behavior that's what I think there's not enough research focused on is it let's look at the people who actually achieve weight loss and if you lose people achieve it and keep it off they do it too many different methods for that's low-carb low-fat whatever it is but let's look at the behaviors that they make and those behaviors can tell us little people one thing we know is they practice today they weigh themselves very often so they're accountable they they practice some form of straight whether it's weighing food recording macros ketogenic fat restriction whatever it is and also the exercise regularly and wonders physiological benefits for that exercise lowers the body fat set point that your body will defend so it actually is the physiological benefit but also just mentally like you said I mean I never if you took me back 30 years ago and you told me when I was 10 years old you said hey when I was like bullied and picked on

note to self esteem you going to fucking squat 668 pounds one day on your back at 201 pounds and set a it's been broken since then but a world record out of been like there's no fucking way there's no way but when you have just put like you said and you that doesn't just people say you should have more confidence that's horseshit advice confidence is built through you set a goal and you achieve achieve and you don't start out to say I'm going to set a world record and that's your first goal you use I like what Will Smith say so you lay a brick is perfectly as you can lay it you do it again and you do it again and you do it again and you talked to anybody who successful in anything they didn't start out saying I'm going to do this Earth shattering thing they started and built that confidence over years and years of achieving small goals which then LED them to their big bonus because I think that the mental state in which you approach anything workout routine a life

styled we decide to live your life that is critical and here's one of the things that people are cynical about it's probably one of the best sources of fuel is inspiration from other motivated people go to David Goggins Instagram page everyday watch that fucking Savage watch what he does and yeah he's awesome but go to people like him Cameron Hanes go to go to go to people like to the Rock but these fucking people just do it there's no Escape Clues notebook sustain I don't want to hear that shit that's not sad if you don't fail you're not going to get anywhere you're not pushing yourself hard enough when I say sustainability I mean if it's if it's because everybody has stuff that they fight again you find a Carver strict diet to be easier to stick to feels better for you but if somebody is over here and says you know what I'm eating a low-fat diet I feel great my blood markers are good I have plenty of energy

what's wrong with that nothing's wrong with that question. There's just the body's just very very different very nutritional requirements is finding this one thing that is best for you yes in objectively and you know and being really analyzing your actual physical performance which very very few people do that kind of say well I feel pretty good but by what marker right are you at with your personal best what are you trying to accomplish are you monitoring your heart rate are you monitoring you work output like what are you doing to show that this diet is optimal for you it's hard to get that's a lot of money that's going to be spent two to get that data Sprint individual auto part of it is going to have to be what do you feel good on and what do you feel like is again

most sustainable for you cuz no matter what the people want a diet but people really want is they want I don't have to track and I don't have to sacrifice anything and I want to get to Michael well tough shit that's not going to happen you have to pick what you're going to sacrifice right so if you say I hate tracking calories so I'm just not going to eat carbs because I I can regulate my body weight that way fuck yeah I do that I had a post on Twitter that was like one of my most popular Twitter post I said you know Health improvements are largely driven by caloric restriction and weight loss but if if you like vegan if you like key if you like carnivore if you and I just listened to a bunch of different diets

and they help you create a restriction and it keeps you at a healthy weight then but yeah hell yeah like somebody says I like eating a big internet genic intermittent fasting is very very easy for me I love the food and I feel better and I think all my help by the markers are improving and I don't know what you say. It's on sustainable the data doesn't show that we talking about calorie-restricted diet said over a weight loss diets are you talking about dietary choices in terms of Ike ketogenic diets look question so it's that if you lose weight we cannot keep it off. Is that is the big problem is that most people are able to lose weight and they cannot keep it off because one that the self defense system that we talked about is really is way too quickly their body gets into the state we're so he's trying to regain that way back part of it part of it yeah like losing it more

likely there's debate about this but I would say that it's you have to create a more extreme deficit to do that and so you are activating your body self defense system more intensely if I had to say it that way so the rebound is usually bigger as well so it's it's trying to find a way okay can we get this weight off and then let's really emphasize the people that the diet after the diet nobody talks about this except for us the book about this like oh writer for the book Peter Baker and I wish men chapters talking about when you go in transition into okay we've lost the weight we want to lose where healthier you have to have the same amount of discipline and intensity to den maintain net loss because if you let up if you let your foot off the gas

so you don't really have to be at the same the caloric restriction level but if you just let yourself come on go on vacation I'm going to eat I'm going to eat when I want those who did go at 8 they do this you just you've literally just undid months of hard work in one week because if you could maintain that for a set of 6 months so I think that if someone can maintain that weight loss for 6 months that's like sort of like the Tipping Point where they can go on the great points also leptin is a you I'm sure you've heard people talk about let them so when you lose fat let them subscribed secretion goes down as fat cells secrete it and it's kinda like your body's thermostat everybody has a cassette Point their body likes to be at so if you lose body fat you secrete less left in hunger goes up metabolic rate goes down Corral tries to guess and is in opposition to Lupton so you

this is your body like a thermostat so you found a thermostat you said it 75 goes to low kick the heat on but backup goes to high kick the coolant on go back down left in act that way with your metabolic rate in your hunger

when you get down to a low body fat left in slow your body you have a drive to regain that weight your your hunger is higher your bought your your metabolic rate is lower left in the still stays low even years after a diet and people who have kept the weight off so they think they're still be a biological drive to regain the weight

that's said and I'm going to go out on a limb here so any of my scientist who listen in on this feel free to call me about the carpet if you think I'm wrong

but just like obese people obese people actually have high levels of leptin they have high levels of left it but they become left and resistant insensitive if you stay in there is evidence that if you stay to reduce body weight for one or two years that that could become your new set point that your body defense I think what can happen is even if your leptin does our water 2 years not 6 months as a little longer a little bit longer so what is the mechanism I think it went well I think it's probably multi-faceted because your body is so redundant usually nothing is ever one thing typically set point I think one of the things that happens it's probably your body becomes more sensitive to the left and you have because your leader now I want to talk about performance cuz this is a big thing with athletes and particularly in my field with Fighters many of them were reluctant to try ketogenic diet initially because of the the first few weeks are pretty rough and it it really in inhibits training

you know you get that keto flu feeling and I've ever experienced that too but

overall is the ketogenic diet a good strategy for someone that's involved in some sort of a brutal athletic Pursuit like football or wrestling it can be absolutely and it will be dependent upon being keto-adapted overtime and actually training in a state of ketosis so you forced those adaptation is glycogen sparing overtime glycolytic pathway is will be decreased over time so that may impair anaerobic power output initially but I think that some most people some I think a good amount of people could adapt. Especially if they're taking things like creatine monohydrate and and taking Berry supplements that can fill that Gap to meet the glycolytic anaerobic energy demands record for the fastest 24 hour

run or 24 of the fastest 100 mile run to get in an 11 hours and 40 minutes and saying just nonsense course follow him on Twitter One Time by the way I brought him to my attention and actually we're looking at some of the you know muscle biopsies from various athletes that are doing some more thing yeah he's on a ketogenic. It's actually but when he does these long races he takes in a considerable amount of glucose gels and hundreds and probably relatively sparingly compared to a person that's already like very carb adapted so right so you just you just want to especially a hundred or a hundred grams of carbs 20 grams of carbs every hour or two maybe more than enough

Rashawn Baker and he basically it's mostly me I mean Zacks diet consist of most like Ribeyes so he's fully erase some of the GOP what I think glucose is one of the most powerful performance enhancing substances out there really I've gone to record levels are being did overtime from a training perspective very small amount of glucose are anti catabolic maybe argue anabolic in the context of certain scenario so small trains well there any benefit to that well I mean glycogen replenishment right this replaces glycogen the muscle faster than pure glucose which is interesting because the fructose gets taken up by the liver so the glucose you do eat the liver doesn't steal steal any of it and it goes your glucose

I will take ketones to so if this is Audrey's soar like a keister Town Esther most of the science behind but there are emerging on the market to like Eugenics I think that the science just over the last couple years has been incredible and emerging on that and I think it's something to watch overtime it's a new fuel source it's like the fourth macronutrient right we have carbs proteins fats and alcohol gel let me ask you this if you were doing nutritional consultant for say someone who's the UFC champion and they said you know I want to get on the optimal diet for performance you don't think that a ketogenic diet

optimal diet for performance is that safe to say or you would have to extreme clean for long. Month can the the the the nicely upon if you turn it down so

I think based on the research I've seen I think you're hard-pressed to convince me that a ketogenic diet is worse than a non, je t'ai on endurance I think that's pretty clear and there may actually be some benefits depending on the individual as far as repeated Sprint or things were you need that anaerobic system I am not ready to say the kitchen God's going to be as good I think that a non ketogenic diet offers you not this is where Ketone supplements baby actually the best thing possible because you could be using glucose so you're getting that fuel source and taking a ketone supplement where you're getting that fuel as well as like it's you know I think that quarter horses that would be more research fats carbohydrates maybe amino acids create n i mean you know just basically trying to

leverage all the various substrates that your body can use specialty under and if we're talking about anaerobic power output you want to have a sweet of different fuel sources you know and not realize you would like men about the term in about 5 sibility which is kind of used she's quite often but I think if you train and get your body fat in keto adapted that provides benefits for Recovery it provides benefits if your getting what is the bedding out for Recovery enhanced in your lower inflammation lower chronic inflammation overtime you know chronic inflammation can contribute to insulin resistance poor neuroinflammation if you're getting concussions or even sub-concussive events over time can actually cause a lot of damage and I think the mechanism that decreases information with the ketogenic diet as opposed to a non number of mechanisms I mean just simply lowering my insulin spikes in glucose but the nlrp3 inflammatone is something that

we lucked out there was a study we're actually we used the Ketone Ester and it's published in the journal Nature medicine showing that in response to LPS which is kind of like us to implement a very powerful inflammatory stimulant that it reduces that and suppresses inflammatory Pathways for a particular pathway compared to compare to you mean so when you're always comparing two things what was the control group for the inflammation or it was just compared to know like being in a state of ketosis it reduces an inflammatory pathway think of it as a hub and when that's activated you have a host of inflammatory cytokines that flow throughout your body and your brain and causes persistent low-grade inflammation

formation in the body that can impede recovery process is over time and I think that really contribute to to bring help to so I might be getting a little far ahead of myself because that is it animal work but it's convincing animal work looking at a particular pathway that's pretty well Define before you get to this is there one is there a variation between low-carb versus ketosis in elevation of Ketone levels in your blood what I mean in terms of is there a benefit to the ketogenic to being a state of ketosis with this reduction of inflammation versus low carb I believe there is just by elevating the metabolite beta-hydroxybutyrate but I do think even low carb has some anti-inflammatory effects what Optima would be ketosis like I said I don't think it's going to be optimal for everybody but I I know there's going to be benefits to maintaining low to moderate levels

ketones for neurological health and also for for recovery and maybe performance at the mention of information more so that so we mention recovery from exercise inflammation calorie deficit is a very powerful anti-inflammatory so I mean so one thing I want to do people get it easy to get the black and white thinking we hear inflammation we think alike that's bad that's bad so there's some studies that tell us quite a bit about inflammation in your body actually has an optimal level of inflammation too little information is actually bad as well so if you can for as chronic I was talking about chronic yes this is a lot of science intern in cancer India versus chronic and how scientists even mess the stuff up but

so if you if you look at studies of recovery from exercise and muscle growth I'm focusing on this but I'll I'll bring it back around

if you give ibuprofen to healthy people who have normal levels of inflammation ibuprofen inhibits muscle growth

if you give it to elderly people with high levels of ventilation they grow more muscle

so this means that the body at for Recovery has an optimal level of inflammation it likes to be in there is a kind of mocha curve here it's a cox-2 inhibitor and beta hydroxybutyrate is also talk to me right and so the part of growing muscle and Recovery is actually inflammation macrophages and all these sorts of things are involved in that process now if he gets right away if it's too much it's not a good thing but if it's too little it's also not a good thing Andy Dalton did a great job on your show of talking about out recovery versus adaptation right so one of the things he said if you do I spaz you do these sorts of things you're in the short-term allowing yourself to recover faster but you're also limiting how much adaptation you're going to incur and I love that because it was people miss the state they say you a few if you're somebody in the offseason if you're trying to grow get more lean body mass or trying to get better at something it's probably good to let your body like

select about Trump have some inflammation and not in a long time but in response to that training session but it did if you're going to Camp again this works contact the running or like I'm a pilot for getting ready for meeting I'm supposed to be squatting 4 times a week done that before and I'm so sore that I can't squat my 4 session then I ice bath or something I'm not worried about growing muscle that time I'm worried about getting recovered enough that I can go do my next training session cuz that is a lot more important for my competition coming up then having that little bit of extra muscle so in Camp probably a good idea postseason not a good idea yeah I mean unless I get it's all contacts will depend it right like if you start getting so sore that you can only train like twice a week then maybe a certain level but that points back to that there's an optimal range of inflammation that your body probably should be in the top symbol for health as well now I don't think like doing a ketogenic diet for somebody that's going to take him out that necessarily but I always want to give context

because people hear these things and they always think it's as a positive like in terms of recovery I Believe recovery and I also believe that being an academic state will enhance your Readiness your resilience and recovery so from a military perspective to I believe that needs to be validated in the study of it's something that that we study when you I'm sorry to interrupt you but when you advise us to the military did you do they do you put them on a specific meal plan to or do they have it's more like this is being studied at a very fundamental very controlled level from cells to animal models to you no human clinical trials going on in and where the data is being collected now and some of it is taken empirically anecdotally from the field or just from various exclusive channels I guess I would say so that I am coming at it as a bias and I'm kind of speaking ahead of the science

but I do think that science already exist showing that you have a greater adaptive effect of just by virtue of lowering information over time in athletes especially this probably pertains more to endurance athletes so it really needs to be studied in in resistance to an MMA fighters and things like that so I'll send it to you I had a lot of criticisms of it but they did show that kitty Jeanette person on ketogenic diet and people who were lifting weights trying to get bigger that there is actually slightly less muscle using the ketogenic diet do you think that would be because the less protein protein I'm pretty sure I want to see it is quite a protein that I I don't know for sure so I don't want to say Authority but I pulled in to stay in ketosis you're going to holidays did they adjust for calories I believe they did so again I could be wrong it's all go back and look and I'll send it to you if you were

but it is possible like again for every give me there's a got you in certain things right so you like these things that activate different Pathways well part of what ketones May signal is a deficit because usually you don't have them in a surplus right so you know we don't know if you can like for example like at apogee right like burnt report about performance and muscle everybody hears a top again that's a very by the way that's too weird way to pronounce that cuz it's Auto and phagocytosis so shouldn't be out of AG but anyway and it's a show me what tell wrote a book about this and it just is like a near X 2nd and that really covers of science 03 years what what gets me is like people who are big on intermittent fasting autophagy but you'll see they're also saying you can grow all this muscle and it's going to be best for your building muscle but that's not true because

Papa G's part of protein degradation so if you're increasing that system by definition that's less muscle so you're there's always a give me an option for one benefit there might be a drawback down depending on your individual situation maybe it makes more sense right like having the most muscle mass possible may not be the best thing for health now we know that having having more muscle mass than normal is good for health but maybe having like absolute Peak muscle mass may not be the best thing for help me out it's like that's why I was trying to say earlier there's never going to be one diet that just fixes all of our problems it depends on the individual and what they're trying to get out of it just like if I went to a again I'm not it have much I watch MMA for years loved your commentary that's why I learned a lot of stuff out of MMA but if I went to a Brazilian jiu-jitsu instructor and I said what's the best technique

he's going to look at me like I'm an idiot right because you're not just that's just say yeah every time that's the best technique for jujitsu and that's when people see what's the best diet it's the same thing but it's completely contextual dependent right depends on you and the kids have been made depends on your appointment as well as our individuality dependent but also I really want to emphasize they show is calories matter you know calories matter even in even if you're eating low carb you can't just eat as much as you want and carbs is a very viable option to sustain a calorie deficit that can contribute to body composition for the weather earlier which I thought was great cuz you said he drinks a Coke after training

it's hard to argue with his results but then again sometimes Elite athletes can get away with a lot of really dumb shit because they're so genetically Superior that they were going to do well no matter what did Michael Jordan eat a Big Mac before every game not true steak and baked potato where is the Big Mac come from steak and baked potato sounds my way out and wash it down with a full sugar Coke and still gain nothing I know I could do that but this is so it's it's did he become this great because he ate this way or can he eat this way because he's this great athlete that's probably the latter right so we wouldn't recommend like somebody like if somebody sitting home and they want to become the greatest boxer ever don't go no probably drinking Coke isn't the first step right but that's what we do with nutrition because we pick up people

we follow and we go off I'm just going to do that and it's so individuals on the sidelines of marathons like they'll hand off coax to people that I've seen people just want to dance right yeah but you want calorie than that off when you know so it's it's in if you need quick energy is probably not the worst thing that Floyd Mayweather could possibly do but not optimal know like when they're doing hikes and stuff but at the end of the day if if he if his car was taken I don't know what it is but if he's eating 5 600 grams of carbohydrate day is it really hurting him to have 40

the sugar from a Coke if he's like maintaining his body weight performing absolutely probably not as nicely when you think about the kind of grueling work outside guy puts makeup on I am still Rising maybe that's the only way he can get enough food in his to eat really energy-dense sources of food to maintain his body weight and if you start say what we need you to eat chicken breast and broccoli and you know this organic rice and all this time he he might start dropping weight like a stone in and his performance go in the tank so this is why context is so important and again like we talked about people think how many times have you seen two guys in the octagon and just looked at their bodies and gone this one guy's going to smash this other guy like that just in the Primal part of your brain because he was built like a tank and then the other guy who looks like nothing just goes out completely obliterate some crap is all the time time all the time right so it's completely context-dependent that the biggest thing

to make sure that you don't run out of fuel during these things right whatever and whatever your your sport is I mean again I'm known as a car guy and I had this powerlifter one time telling me so don't you think you should carb load the night before polishing me I was like dude you do a nine Raps like you're you're doing so you three times on each lift squat bench press and deadlift you're not deleting you take sweat really amazing even like you can fast for a week which I did and deadlift and it's not a significant inhibitor of your body perform where is running would be doing prolonged you know resistance training for 3 hours and I got stood up. But you know it's it's you have to pick the contacts the individual and honestly it people probably going to want to hear this from the scientist but we don't know enough about this stuff yet

I'm really safe for each individual person what's best for them and that's why we kind of got to go by feel we know you don't have to go drinking Gatorade throughout your one hour workout done the gym typically you know I'm drinking ketones but it's you know it's not going to offer you any advantage it's not and I did that for many years actually and I think guys still do it now I mean we see it all the time you know you got to make your Shake in the gym and drink it into work yet they drove me nuts was I kind of got The Love Boat back and forth with Tim noakes on Twitter and he kind of made it out to seem that people are just missing some of his research because people in Academia or that pureview is broken who's not Tim noakes very knowledgeable challenge convention because I was at Domino's I have challenged every convention in the fitness

yeah yeah there's a challenge convention because I was at Domino's I have challenged every convention in the fitness industry but it's just you know when when people ask me he's both go about it but you're also open-minded and I just don't like if you can't show me a hard evidence you know like there was a great quote from Thomas soul that I saw the other day and said you can ask these in science and go a long way in terms of sorting out bulshit compared to what

but it's just you know when when people ask me he's both called about it but you're also open-minded and I just don't like you can't show me a hard evidence you know like there was a great quote from Thomas soul that I saw the other day and said you can ask me some science and go a long way in terms of sorting out bullshit compared to what

where's your hard evidence

you know and what is the cost right so it's well low carb is better compared to what and what's the cost on performance or any of these other things and then where's your hard evidence right so this is why like I said science overtime yes you can have industry influences you can have mobile data and some scientist fake data we we both come across this scientist to a fake data but I used to be in business with somebody who I found out

I know hard evidence but I had a lot of circumstantial evidence that they were faking data and I act at the dinner and I told him I was I was like we're done like this thing we're doing is done and and thank goodness I did because it came out later people started replicating trying to replicate is dated nobody can replicate its data and and still had a pretty big following even now but you know it's it's one of those things that it makes me so mad because then people get so frustrated because they feel like if they feel like scientist or just an industry's pocket why they going to believe anything any of us say you know it's so frustrating and that's why I motivation money power ego if a lab menu for particular supplement and you come out with consistently with negative data what's the you know incentive for them to keep finding you

voice control that's the only way around it I keep reminding people like people who says things like we found the cure for cancer in the government of suppressing it and like and all the scientist or just in the pie you what you're saying is you're saying it every scientist on the planet who does cancer research is an immoral unethical piece of shit that's what you're saying because you just told me they don't have friends and family who are dealing with cancer and they're suppressing This research come on now you know that's the other big I'm a small government guy and I'm like I said libertarian but one thing's makes me cringe about Libertarians sometimes these big elaborate conspiracy theories that come up around science and what not like you realize like a sinner can't even text him a dick pic to his his side chick without like it winding up all over Twitter you think they could these big

there is a can even tie their shoes in the morning without spending $10,000 you know so the idea that like all this research is being suppressed by the government not I'm not saying it's never happened but I think it's pretty.

Well gentlemen we just did three plus hours thank you. Like 6 and I'll just have to appreciate it thanks for Illuminating the stuff which is still it's so complex it's part of the problem and I think we could do a hundred of these shows I would never cover all the topics are all the issues are all the details and I think it's so incredibly difficult for people to find the right diet and program that works for them I'd like to add one thing that the science is rapidly emerging and the metabolic Health Summit which is happening in the end of January beginning of February next year 2019 will be bringing in the leading scientists that are talking about all the different topics right now I'm good weight loss and that's going to be in La it's actually there's a flyer your book there if you look inside they're giving you a flyer alright La January 31st to February 3rd in Long Beach

Public Health summit.com it's going to be very comprehensive group of of basic Sciences clinical scientist entrepreneurs and people everyday people that are just interested in the space you going to I will be at I'm helping to organize and promote it but also moderating some things are going to discuss tonight last podcast on the podcast imma show up in Heckle that addresses this with a couple more experts in Personalities in in that I think it's just it's amazing how much information you have to absorb I've done so many diet podcast and I'm still a moron but it's always talks to people you know it it's hard because if you're not going to do it agree yourself or do research yourself it's so hard to know who like you could have to pick people that you trust and it's so hard to know who to

because there was something that Greg Nuckols really spark I said that I think kind of ties things together nicely he said people are really good at knowing when somebody has more knowledge than them about subject but you talk to somebody for a little bit and you really can get the impression pretty quickly if they know more or less than you were about the same but they're really bad at doing is figuring out amongst to people who know more than them who is the more knowledgeable of two very bad at picking that out so you kind of got a pic people who you trust now if you're looking for people to trust notice the three magic words that me and him both sit on here today at one point I don't know

what usually experts they don't make broad claims they don't use superlatives they don't say things like best worst never Always There usually put in contacts to everything and they're providing you with information that helps illuminate you that everything is nuanced and that's why it like I'm sure I get off early at the end of May if you talk to anybody who's expert in any different discipline and you ask him a broad question you're going to get a really brought answer and you ask me specific question him a lot of contacts then we'll give you specific answer but I would you agree with that definitely so I think someone's really strong on one side big kind of deep and look for conflict of interest to and kind of important thing I try to be transparent as as much as possible on Unser things were involved in so I think that's super important I've got out have a website you know so it's yeah but you're not actually

advocating any particular kind of approaching it from contest prep guide and is available in all those places are lame. Com com in your Twitter bio Lane Instagram bio Lane and Dom nutrition.org and Technology it's an information website I don't have any product for sale at least not yet but I put products on there that I personally use and kind of that it out that I think would be helpful and just a lot of information like your your Pryor podcast with me is on there and Tim Ferriss right on the front page. D'Agostino. Katie I think is Instagram not a huge Instagram back but D'Agostino dagostino is my Twitter handle

Dominic dagostino for Facebook to today thank you so much appreciate appreciate

thank you everybody for tuning into the podcast and thank you to our sponsors thank you to movement watches get 15% off today with free shipping and free returns by going to mvmt.com Rogan see why the movement keeps growing check out there expanding collection of dope watches sunglasses in and out bracelets for the ladies go to mvmt.com Rogan and join the movement thank you also to athletic greens folks athletic greens is offering you a special deal listen to this podcast for giving away 23 travel packs value at $100 or $99 right at $99 so get into a daily routine with athletic greens it's one of the best things you can do for your health and success I cannot stress this enough head over to athletic greens.com Rogen in

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we're done thank you everybody thanks to today in Toronto see people tomorrow night thank you love you bye