#737 - Lance Armstrong

Dec 15, 2015

Lance Armstrong is an American former professional road racing cyclist and 7-time winner of the Tour de France.

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hello ladies and gentlemen this Friday December 18th I'll be at the Bob Carr performance art center in Orlando Florida with the great Ian Edwards and then December 31st I'm at The Wiltern theater in Los Angeles that's New Year's Eve with honey honey band Joey Diaz Duncan Trussell Ari shaffir and me that's it writes all the people should be fucking glorious and it sold out so

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at draftkings.com that's draftkings.com my guest today is arguably one of the greatest living cyclists ever I almost said cyclers wrought with Scandal but pretty honest and open and upfront about it all now great guy really enjoyed talking to him and you got to know I guess quite a bit more

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him and his feelings then the case please without any further Ado welcome Lance Armstrong

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The Joe Rogan Experience trained by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day and we're like ladies gentlemen Lance Armstrong all right buddy good man thanks thanks for joining us we appreciate it thanks for having me I really appreciate it for real and you know you were just telling me before this we're talking about social media and social media the greatest part about social media is he get in contact with everybody the worst part about social media is that you get in contact with ever

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and it's just tiny percentage of people that won't let it rest like I was looking at something that you posted and it was something about some like you had a great time doing some race and like one of the first tweets one of the first comments was yeah is good at times run away from drug toast yeah or yeah I think that's right you're just going to have I mean what did we I'm at posted the other day we were we were putting our Christmas tree up

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my family and I all the kids there and Anna and when you know the lights and the and the ornaments and it's at the fucking Christmas tree and you know of course most people love it I think it's a cute picture but then there's always the one you know that use the tree Juiced or or something I mean there's just always which I get I mean that's just part of it yeah but sometimes you're like is that the best we got like yeah maybe that is maybe I deserved I don't know but it's like give it a rest

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but you definitely deserve some of it right yeah for sure there's no way around course of course this but it's also I think one of the things about this whole Scandal the whole thing it illuminated the real issue and the real issue is the entire and this is what we're talking about Bill Bird did that thing on Conan where he was only the fucking whole sport is like this it's not there was at all the people that won the Tour de France and all the years that you did it if you go back to

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people that either weren't implicated or didn't test positive like what is like 18th Place or something fucking crazy like that you know that's probably generous yeah right it would be it would be hard enough hard to know that and I mean look Joe these are all easy for me to sit here and say and talk about and people would say well of course he says that right course he thinks that and for such as table now we don't have any let it get it but is it

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is it now I mean is it it's well I guess it is but you know people don't want to talk about that I mean people want to talk about my issue and that's I guess also understandable but like it was a it was a fucked-up time and and you had this you were at this Crossroads of a very hard sport a very hard event some would say one of the hardest sporting events in the world three weeks 2,500 miles conditions terrain etc etc

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so that meets really the perfect drug and you have a drug that's that's incredibly beneficial and at the time totally undetectable and and everybody dove in and so nobody's nobody's nobody wanted to be in that position it's not like any of us growing up as kids thought dude I'm gonna I'm gonna go to Europe and get you know all doped up and try to win back right no nobody wanted to be there like we all went with

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pure intentions we got there and we're like I'm talking about the this crop of Americans that went to Europe and the shit was messy and we're like whoa like okay do we go home or do we stay and fight and literally almost everybody stayed and fought and they fought you know we fought the way that the fight was being fought and you know and and that all meets with where we are today

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and the people who were there I think can speak to it me my teammates my peers my rivals the competition and we have a unique perspective on it because we were we were in the war

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but the person on Main Street right the corner of Main and First wasn't there and they don't understand it and so they can't really speak to it but that doesn't change the fact that they're disappointed they're really disappointed the disappointed me their disappointing the sport they might hate me they might hate the sport they were most likely Defenders of mine and so they're pissed off and I you know it's taken me a long time to really understand that

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but I'll spend the rest of my life trying to trying to work that one out with with that person and I don't you know they're out there they're millions of them so well they have a legitimate point but there's also there's people out there that want you to be wrong and want you they want to find someone who's done something bad and never let it go and I think there's there's definitely some of that going on and there's also people that they don't have

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out of sympathy for people who've been extremely successful and have made mistakes yeah I could gives them the green light to just decide to just continually attack you but if when I tried to do when this whole thing is going down as I try to put myself in your position like your this world-class biker it's 1994 and that's right around when you started use EPO 95 95 95 so around this time when

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you realize what those 20 years ago 20 years ago it's kind of crazy right crazy when you realize that this that pretty much all the best guys are doing this now what is that feeling like when you like okay I've got a cross over into this deceptive territory now all the sudden I'm have to lie about this I have to hide this and have to be a part of this sort of underground things underground aspect that's a part of this great sport right well we held off as long as you know

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I mean you know EPO came along in the early 90s we sort of got to Europe and 92 93 and then it by that point by 94 it's you know full-on and we're thinking okay this isn't good but surely they're going to have a test for this for repo and we waited we waited and it just never came and then then we get to 95 there's

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tremendous pressure on the team within the team we're losing the sponsor will the sponsor renew the team wants results and we're going all right we're really fucked here and so we all collectively made the decision in Spring of 95 that aren't we have to go play ball the first time you shot that stuff what was that like now it's not it's not like I knew you were going to ask these questions

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it's not like that it's not that type of dress not like I don't even like cocaine or it's not it's not it's not I didn't mean it that way I meant was there a feeling like fuck we've crossed into this land of cheating it was so long ago that would have been that was 21 years ago so it's right there 20 years ago it's a little tough to remember exactly you know it also too I mean it wasn't as if there were other things we did before that I mean they're Ipoh is is this hugely powerful drug but

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but there was you know we sort of call them gateway drugs I mean if Depot is you know is the you know meth of performance-enhancing drugs I mean there's there's marijuana to there's there's a lighter rights or entry-level stuff that are goes the entry what was the first type of cortisone is is there another is to relieve pain yeah or just yeah I mean it is but it also works for for racing bikes but how does it work for raising

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well it's such a strong anti-inflammatory that you with that you're just for inevitably you feel better whether it's physically feel better the certain even just a euphoria that comes with that that's you know and who knows what you know percent of it but but at the same time you have you have a drug that you know I love it when you when you know in cycling is if you took cortisone you would be would be banned

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however you know you watch you know the NFL and then somebody gets gets banged up in the first half they go in at halftime they come out you know the announcer says they went in they got it they got a cortisone injection they'll better they're going to play the second half they rushed for a hundred yards they win the game their hero it's like wait a second yeah like so it is it is what it is but it is weird it's weird what thing we've talked about that a bunch of times with me and my friends like when you go to GNC or

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you know like the UFC has this company MusclePharm which sells a bunch of supplements and things along those lines but yet they ban performance-enhancing drugs like what are these supplements do well they enhance you somewhat whatever it is certain level will allow right well allow a certain level of improvement certain level of aid in recovery but anything past that is cheating well it's all performance that happen at an app is performance in a sure I didn't see it's all

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all so we know that but but they're also to has to be and I don't want to be critical of whether it's the UFC's efforts to combat doping or you solder or water the out anybody or any major sport you have to draw the line somewhere that's just and I get asked that all the time because people people get frustrated with the issue and it's that they kind of throw their hands up and said well we should just it should just all be legal

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and you know they said that to me and they're thinking I'm going to go yeah you're right but you can't that's not the answer either there has to be a structure in place there has to be a line it might that line might seem weird or fuzzy to people sometimes but you shit you have to have something and so dude It's Tricky I mean anytime you mix athletes that are that are super motivated with with money with pressure

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that comes with that Temptation that comes with that you know people or for the rest of the I mean come on I mean

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the original Olympic Games they were there were there was going on so it's you have to think that it's going to happen forever it the substances will change over time but just unfortunately it's part of the game so the original writers like way back in the early days of the Tour de France before they had drugs they were using alcohol you know there's all there's a lot of stories about whether it's alcohol cocaine and crazy substances but but at the same time you had guys

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the Tour de France is a hundred years old right so doping is cheating we know that but there's other ways I mean guys would hang onto cars guys would get in trains guys will ya there were guys they would take a cork out of a wine bottle and they would put this is this fuckin crazy they would have fishing string in the cork right so wired up and they would have it you know they have a car up the road and they put it in their teeth oh my and they would be you know just a subtle pull I mean did they

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anyway to get ahead I mean this is you know the the sport is just that it's a brutal Sport and you're not getting your face pounded in like you have see but you certainly feel like you're getting your face powder well almost psychologically it's almost more devastating because it's so grinding when you're talking about something that goes three weeks ago is it 2200 or 2500 miles is that what it is about 2500 that's insane that's an insane amount of time but pushing your body hundred miles

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a day but once you get to the top level it's remarkable how efficient it is I'm you have 200 guys going down the road on a normal day if it's a flat day and there's not wind or cross wind or rain or you know the conditions it's pretty easy to be honest I mean it's conversational the final is tough and the final gets fast and people are competing for the stage win but it's not you know those three weeks aren't like three weeks on the line I mean on you know in the red line already has a pace yourself

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the Peloton Paces itself like the you know they sort of pace and police for lack of a better word itself and when you know obviously the mountains in the time trials right or whether race is decided and those are the hardest moments when they first started introducing things like when I started using transfusions and things along those lines how much of an improvement did it have on the X well you know it's hard

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because the times are you know people look at our era they look at my generation and they say okay well the X must be significantly faster and be I mean but you can't compare cycling to track and field or cycling to another sport that's had had a rough patch and is now trying to clean itself up because technology changes Road surfaces change obviously training has changed but I mean if you go back to the 84 games right here in Los Angeles that was really the first major

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exposure you had four for transfusions which which the American team did in Rolling Stone exposed it and but a transfusion is just a was an old-school Ipoh replace that right mmm because you had a transfusion is just adding red sales to your system which it carries oxygen and gives you more oxygen then you had a drug came along that did that for you so you didn't have to extract the blood you didn't have to put it back in it made it you know it made it a lot easier and

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then one the test when they refined Depot test and ultimately came up with it then people went back to the old school system so and then came other ways to detect that through not so much through a test but just through what they call the biological passport so just studying parameters in your blood whether it's reticulocytes or red cells or

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you know all of these things that smart people can come up with test for that's it was more of a screening method to detect a transfusion which kind of fucked up about all this is that you won the Tour de France seven times you obviously trained like a demon pushed yourself to the limits you beat everyone in the competition and they were all doing the same thing you were doing right yet you're the one who's demonized and yet you're the one who takes

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the grief for it yeah and there's a situation that happens when you're involved you're involving money or involving sponsors your involved when you once you first start once the ball starts rolling and the first deception has been launched out there into The Ether yep there's no way to take it back if you want to keep racing yep and that's the thing I mean people look I mean my Citrus my story and

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and I hear you loud and clear and you can say that I can never say that you know when I when I if I were to say things like that people would they would nuke me but it is what it is what it is but that's anyhow there was the doping okay which led to the lying right which led to the treatment of other people I think by and large people can have their perspective that you have they can say well looks to me like everybody did it so okay then they can look to the line and they

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that's where they really start to not like it they say this guy lied to us repeatedly but of course you get you know my there's no defense to that but if I could if I could share any personal Insight I mean once you lie once you just keep lying you keep lies if I'm going to sit here you know this is 15 years ago and Joe you're a nice guy and you mean if I was on this podcast I would have lied to your fucking face a million times just so you know I would have just so you know just so you know but that's not

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as a surprise to you or anybody else but but in once you're in there it's not as if I'm going to go you know this this guy Joe seems like a really nice guy I think I'm gonna be real I'm gonna be honest with him so much money there's no way you can't once that yeah so I was I was stuck for lack of a better word in that in that distant that liar that deception but then the way that I took my competitive nature which served me well in training and in racing and took it into the real world took it into a press conference took it into a personal relationship took it

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the former teammates my relationship with that would that's the part where people go okay fuck this guy forever right we're I'm done and so that you know you got sort of three phases none of them are good but as it got further away that you know lack of respect for others is the thing that totally fucked me and you know to that I would say to anybody that I understand and I'm

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I may be in their time out forever I have the only thing I will add that may sound like I'm trying to defend myself as I've I've tried to make amends with all those people right the ones that we all know the ones people talk about I've traveled the world I've sat with them I've looked him in the eyes and said what I did was totally unacceptable and I'm sorry and almost everybody has accepted the apology and we've moved on but that doesn't get too

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this this you know this crowd of people that did you can't sit with face-to-face and you can't say you're sorry I mean I can talk to you we can talk about it some people may view that as an apology or are not but but the ones that I could go sit with I did and that's all that I would add to that and I and I mean I'm proud that most of those people and I say most not everybody because not everybody's ready but most of those people said you know what we're good we're done and so

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so if it was my son and he acted that way first of all I'd say the fuck you doing you can't act that way but I had no nobody was standing over me to going dude what are you what are you you're acting like an asshole nobody did that so but if my son did that I would say you get over there and you make it right with that person so that's where it is and here we go you're also in this bizarre position at the time to be the only famous cycler and the entire country cyclist cycler is not it

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that's a cycler cycling drugs it's like licker biker but a bikers like Sons of Anarchy and that's yeah yeah I kind of get burned out on that series but yeah I mean I mean this story we have to carry around yeah and there's the cancer organizations Livestrong all of it is a lot of weight you're carrying around it was I speak to it all the time I mean it was it was a huge wave but you're also balancing out

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out so much good with this lie and this lie is helping all is good right like the Livestrong Foundation is generating hundreds of millions of dollars helping all these people with cancer I've seen you in the hospitals with these kids and it makes me me having kids myself it makes me cry yeah seeing these kids with face masks on because their immune system so compromised and they don't have any hair and they're just devastated and you're hanging out with these kids and you're generating all this positive energy for them generating all this money all this all this research

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is being funded so there's all this good as well you start telling the truth that's top well we know what happens because it happened did it happen it happened to and we know it up I don't see any of those fucking bracelets anymore knossos goddamn things were everywhere yeah yeah they were we had a good run and 85 million bracelets yeah but look I mean I don't want anybody to be mistaken my interests were selfish I mean I was defending myself and protecting myself

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but at the same time it wasn't just myself I was protecting I was precise protecting the sport I was protecting our sponsors I was protecting the tour I was protecting the foundation and you know it's just hard to say I'm going to I'm going to stop and and what we just said I mean we now know on all of those things right we know what's happened to the foundation we know what's happened to the sport we know what's happened to the sponsor we know and we can now see it was it was a devastating

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eating toll and you know most would say well that's all your fault Lance and and and maybe they're right but it's been you know did it especially on the foundation side dude it just breaks my heart to see that the effect its had on their effectiveness well it's Gotta Be way more complicated than it's just you're all your fault it's what it's way more complicated because when you're talking about and

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entire sport that's dirty mean for lack of a better word the entire sport that's being deceptive entire sport that's using these performance enhancing drugs and then you're talking about you because you're this weird outlier your this one guy who is incredibly successful at it in a country where nobody gave a fuck about the Tour de France until you came along when is Greg lemond you yeah you know I mean this yeah I mean that's it but this this is the

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the story in the story being what it was a cancer survivor that comes back that wins this event the transcends the sport that brings us board to psych and although Greg to do I mean a tremendous job really that was like the first blow-up of cycling in the United States and then comes my story I mean that's the story was so but the story was too big right and that's the reason that they did incentivized and motivated people like like Nowitzki

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and like the feds to come along and say 100% hundred I mean they're not they're not doing that to save the world they're not doing that to save the children no matter what ulterior motives that they might you know try to list as well we wanted to make sure that children don't do this we wanted to send a great message you have bullshit it's a high profile High publicity Avenue for them to achieve notoriety yet but but right and we will get into that but the you know my rival so if you take my

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it may mean Robins whether it's you know Rick or boss or below kurban Thani or you know their star factor for lack of a better phrase was just was just different and they you know they weren't cancers wasn't so it there was this disparity which the sport enabled their to be because it just kind of an old-school janky sport in terms of the way it's organized and run as a business that it was like a you know like a South American economy there was really the

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and the Have Nots and that's a crazy way of putting it yeah I mean when you have something like that it doesn't work and so what you need to you know all of those ships need to rise with that c and I probably didn't do a good enough job trying to push for that in my in my time but don't you have only a certain amount of resources I mean with one of the things that I've always said about extreme Winters is there's there's a borderline between greatness and

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and it crosses back and forth yeah I would say the greatest manager next door neighbors and they borrow each other's sugar yeah because there's almost no way you can get that good without almost losing your fucking mind yeah right Adam are some people that are fantastic at things great ones I've met great ones especially great Fighters and they're all fucking crazy yeah it's almost like you can't you can't not because every you can't be a regular guy and get there right I probably was yeah I probably still am a little crazy

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oh you're crazy I'll come tell you definitely crazy no but I don't I don't think you're bad I think you're a bad guy I mean I don't know you that well yeah but I just think you have to have that that sharpness yeah you have to have that grit you have to have that aggressive competitive nature in order to succeed especially some fucking thing where everyone is doing the same thing there's not a lot of creativity involved there's not a lot of variables you're fucking pushing yourself and everything yourself you're pumping your legs

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it you can't you know can't fake to the left and go to the ride you can't fucking throw up some new moves that no one's ever seen before you're fucking impression is some of those you definitely had some of those but the other day you're on a fucking bike and everybody else is on bike and you going up the goddamn same Hill right and there were and there were no secrets right and that's the that that concentrates down what the competitive nature is to like the edge Who's Got The Sharper Edge who's more intense and you judging you

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he's getting riled up I get riled up dude I'm gonna step back don't don't don't jump across the table I mean isn't that a big old kettlebell over here that I'm going to hit you should come over here so settle down isn't that what it is yeah yeah I mean that it has to be what it is it's the only way to win yeah it's an endurance event so you have to be a little careful with that but there are those moments where you just have to unleash everything you have and you can unleash them in training or in in racing and yeah but yes that seems like a really good point where you just put that up is there's you have to be

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careful with that you have to know when to put like how you have to know your body yeah like really intimately as far as eat and you have to manage it over the course of many many many say the marathon I mean nobody takes off and you know like it's a hundred yard dash I mean you have to manage that you obviously you have the experience of knowing what that effort is going to look and feel like and you know how to manage all of that but yeah I mean you just three weeks long man you got to be you got to be careful yeah is there a moment

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moment where you remember like during a race where you wanted to push but you had to back down like there's is there moments where you like you're managing as I didn't have it well yeah where you feel like I just this is not a smart thing to know yeah and now and you know now you can mean when we race with you know well in the old days people just trained and they thought well I'm gonna go hard today I'm going to go easy tomorrow right and then it came the heart rate monitor and they you know followed their heart rate and they met and they manage their

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erasing through that and then came the power meters and then so now there's all these you know there are these devices where you can really monitor all that stuff and so you're out there you're not just sort of driving around blind I mean you're actually can see what you're doing and you can that makes managing that effort a lot easier what is it what are the difference is the numbers like if you go back to like a hundred years ago well assuming that people weren't using corkscrews and or quarks and fishing line and whatever but I'm trained sheeting yeah

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like what is like a realistic difference between the early days of winning and you just you have to look at modern cycling you have to look at when when the bike basically got to the the bikes in the wheels and these things got to where they are today and you know they're I mean they're fast now these guys are fast and that's the you know two things have happened number one my story got exposed and so then people questioned everybody whether it's Chris Froome won the Tour de France

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this year or somebody that wins the World Championships they questioned them because of me and then they say what kind of will you know he's dirty seems like everybody's dirty so you must be dirty and then they go to the time's right they look at they look at they look at my times in the Tour de France and they look at the peloton's times and they see now that the times are actually either the same or better so they said well then of course that that supports my argument that you're dirty you know it well if it's fast I mean I don't know I mean it I don't

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have the answer to that and I you know I get asked all the time what's going on now or what's I said I have no idea I mean I'm so far removed from cycling that I have no earthly idea what's going on or not going on but I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame those guys I don't understand it but you know shit I mean you could have these athletes might be a lot better the training might be a lot better I do think technology the bikes the wheels even Road surfaces are a lot better

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and is there a is there any part of you that's kind of pissed off that there are performance enhancing drugs like if there was nothing and if it just had to be mano-a-mano same result you would have the same result I would have this it is my belief that that the results would be the same it would be a few seconds slower or whatever whatever it would be it doesn't matter if the overall time slower what matters is if you were five minutes ahead of the next guy that's what matters that's what matters

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I that's my belief but there are others that don't hold that belief there are others say no I mean doping affects other individuals differently and you know you wouldn't have you might have one too or you might have one none but that means there's some people weren't doping correctly it looks at once you're doping if you're doping the other guys doping better than you like well then you're not doing your job doping you know you're not being a good competitive Doper now he's like Phil but that mean that's really what it is right I mean doesn't make sense

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it's it gets complicated and we would talk forever and people would argue with us forever about that so it yeah but I yeah I'm they're not here you know I mean they are listening folder here but my perspective is really clear on that I mean I think if you have a sport where everybody's you know and we were both talking about the the Bill Burr thing that he did on Conan which is like yeah our psychopath is better than your psychopath you know like that's that's really what it is you can't say

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that I mean how could they take away this is one of the things that drove me the craziest about this like what did they do with the seven years where you one where they said you're not the winner anymore well who the fuck wanted then that's how do you how do you find the guy who won it so that's that's that's a problem what's in the record books that's it's empty empty empty so that's empty for seven years yeah yeah and I look I you you I agree with you

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but you can say that I cannot say that all I will say is that I don't I don't think it's far be it for me to talk about what's fair or not fair but I don't think it's fair for the sport to leave those empty I think that's crazy and compare and contrast when the tour you have the yellow Jersey who's the guy who wins you have the polka dot Jersey who's the who's technically the best climber and then you have the green jersey who's technically the best Sprinter those seven years were the green jersey was one

► 00:36:42

sizable who admitted to having doped all seven of those years the polka dot Jersey was was Was Won by Ivor ank from France who admitted to having doped all those years those all stand everything still there that's hilarious but the yellow Jersey has been erased you know second place third place all those places are still there the years you know the years prior to me where somebody was you had admitted or was caught all still there so there's just an asterisk in first place if you go to Wikipedia it's just there's just a line through it

► 00:37:15

that's so strange so it that's the word man it's straight it's very strange and it's strange for me and it makes me it makes me sad because I'm a look I'm gonna be honest I believe I won the races and I think well no you did win the rails no you won the race that whether it's keeps the people to ask are the ones that got beat yeah so if you ask them right if you ask Ian if you a sulha if you asked below if you ask any of

► 00:37:42

um they say he won those bike races and so man it I love those yellow jerseys in your house I did give him back no good fuck them she put it with Instagram picture of them every day that was yeah that yeah I'm not going to put that picture up again but those great picture though oh you chilling on the couch and 7 yellow Jersey on your wall I got I got a note for that one well you're gonna get nuked no matter what you do look but I

► 00:38:13

look I mean they're up yeah they're up and and and I'm proud of them I really am and I'm proud of and that's the thing too is that is weird as it is and as strange as it is that there's just a line through those years as if they did not happen yeah man I had I was paid to do a job right as messy as the job was whatever I was paid to do it and I did it and I wanted to win I wanted to capture those memories for myself and for my teammates and you can't nobody can't

► 00:38:42

take those away from me I still hold those memories to myself and yeah it's had a complicated ending but you know I still view those as victories and I still view those memories as good the carrying around the lie and being interrogated and questioned and it was that the hardest part about all of it you know I was I was only interrogated at our question to with the press and even

► 00:39:12

you have got if it would have been in this day and age with Twitter and Facebook and social media and it would it would have been a thousand times worse I mean this was you know I mean this is in the in the late 90s I mean think about that one that was a long time ago and so the level of scrutiny while it was high wasn't nearly as high as it would have been today but yeah I mean once you dig in you know with these with these guys you're stuck so

► 00:39:42

once you finally came clean I mean obviously there was a lot of blowback but was there also a relief not a not immediately not immediately I mean I I get asked that a lot and I think people people expect me to say well you know it was just this it was this this huge relief off your shoulders when you when you talk to Oprah or you or whatever you did that you can now move forward and live the life of an honest man and

► 00:40:12

etc etc but it's taken me let me just sum it up I mean sitting here today having this conversation I would much prefer to have this conversation then the one where I would have lied to your fucking face 15 times 10 years ago I'd much rather just talk like this so that's that's a relief but it but it's not like I walked out of sitting with Oprah and was like oh my God I feel amazing that was that was an ass whippin and so

► 00:40:42

like sitting there with Oprah she's asking she's drilling you yeah you question how about that start she came out yeah she came out hot yes or no yes or no if you own one yes or no I thought you know I thought she did a good job she did a great job I thought she did a good job I thought this is very compelling yep because the way she structured the beginning part of the gas station yeah especially if you're going to do something like that on television you want to capture people and keep them there yes kind of have to approach it that way I thought she did a good job I don't I know that it wasn't

► 00:41:12

well received and I and in what way you mean people didn't like you afterwards and that way yeah well I think there's two things number one I wasn't emotionally ready to do that interview I wasn't I wasn't in a place where I think that I sit today where it's it's it is a position of Contrition and understanding the tremendous sense of betrayal that's out there like my perception of that today is

► 00:41:42

much sharper than it was three years ago when I sat with her the feds and other lawsuits forced my hand I had to sit there with that because I knew I was going to be sitting with her or with you or with Tom Brokaw or I was going to be sitting with a government lawyer being deposed being videoed and being leaked so I said well I'm going to go I'm going to find the place that I'd rather sit down and talk about this as opposed to a grainy video that the government leaks to the world and that's your coming out party so I

► 00:42:12

I did that but the thing about Oprah is is aside from me just not being ready at the time to do it you know people sensed that but most importantly for the die-hard cycling fans and sports fans I didn't say enough you didn't name names you didn't you didn't call anybody out you wasn't detailed enough you're holding back you're protecting people that's what they said that's a very small percentage of the population for the majority of the population those first five minutes was

► 00:42:42

too much information they were like what the fuck did I just hear like blood bags Ipoh testosterone transfusions cheating it was way too much so you had people that were one Camp a smaller campus said he didn't say no he's holding back here the other campus like all right that's that's more than I needed to hear and so everybody was pissed well I don't know why they would think it's too much I mean I don't know I don't understand that logic because it is

► 00:43:12

it is real you're a grandma and Duluth right and you and you supported the cancer survivor prep Claus isn't real and you hear that I mean you're sitting there going uh I don't I don't like anything about this so yeah so I see because they were also supporting Livestrong yeah also supported the story so how much of an effect did it have like almost immediately on your foundation I don't know because I was asked to leave the foundation before that and so now I have

► 00:43:42

been back so I don't know and I'm not and I don't ask is it still around yeah yeah but it must have taken it devastates I think so I mean it takes a hit in terms of obviously in terms of fundraising which directly leads to its you know its Effectiveness in terms of helping create change for cancer survivors all around the world you need to raise money in order to do that staff layoffs I mean you name it I mean

► 00:44:12

it's but but I don't I don't have specifics because once I left the board and left the organization and they legally changed the name I mean I don't know it would none of it was shocking to me I mean I knew I didn't know but I knew that every I have a friend who was a professional cycler just say he's named site cycle cyclist sorry we're gonna get this right okay people wait I'm gonna write down like likely 101

► 00:44:42

yeah he's a pike some people say the ultimate fighting challenge it's championship and it's a I would say that yeah the challenge okay my friend John was a professional cyclist and this was 2000 maybe 3 3 4 and he told me he was like listen man we were all at we're all on it he goes guys would get off the bus in the middle of the night you'd hear them taking off their bikes and going for a ride because their blood got to

► 00:45:12

if they're there are those old stories yeah that's from EP outright it that's yeah I've heard those stories that that I never I never saw that but well my friend John I mean maybe he was on a crazy team or something like that but back in the day know that went before they got it dialed in well what they what happened was is there was no test rights and Renault sport had a test whether it's cycling or swimming or running boxing or who whatever sport is using EPO they didn't have a test for EPO and so

► 00:45:43

in with one of the side effects of epo or you know or increasing your red cell count is your blood it's literally a question of viscosity right so your oil and your holder Royal yeah well that's the only time you ever think of the word viscosity right yes your motor oil but more red cells means thicker blood to give her Bloods too thick we know what happens is not it in a good thing and so the sport had to go to the couldn't test for it the the science wasn't there yet so they went to these sort of preventive screening methods

► 00:46:12

so then they started testing the viscosity or the thickness of people's Bloods otherwise known as hematocrit right and so that would they would use that as the screen anybody above 50% hematocrit couldn't race that you weren't positive you didn't get banned but you were put on the side for two weeks as a health measure anyone under 50 percent was find a Race So everybody took that as I mean before that they were people that were 60 64 percent those guys might be getting up in the middle of the night going for a little spin yeah

► 00:46:42

yeah but at 50 you know they deemed that sort of the healthiest level you know but people push it right up to 50 then this and there's some side effects and there's some possible potential health risks as far as like strokes and things along those lines I'm sure there's anybody that was on the tour ever drop dead from EPO

► 00:47:00

well there's there there was you know look there there I don't know I mean there are a lot of documented cases especially in the 80s right when you go I guess was first hitting the scene there was this wave of Dutch cyclists that passed away in the night and you know on the night huh in their sleep and that's probably what it would have well I don't know I mean I I didn't do the I didn't do the autopsy and you know nobody I don't know if anybody's ever proven that but that that sort of

► 00:47:30

of I don't want to say that was the myth but that was that ippo the drug took the blame for those deaths and so it hasn't happened since and it didn't happen in you know in our generation but I don't know but my point being that it is it can be fairly dangerous

► 00:47:54

well if well if your blood and you can imagine if it gets too thick so that that would not be one of the things that it didn't surprise me that when you came clean I was like well good for him that was really what I thought I was like it's kind of fucked up that he was lying all this time it's kind of fucked up that he was suing people that were saying that he was telling lies and but what I think is it shocked me the most well I was thinking about it was that you you would recover

► 00:48:23

heard from cancer you had one of your testicles removed you had brain surgery but lung cancer you mean your body was ravaged by this and yet you still were taking drugs yep that's that's what got me I was like that what a crazy desire to win that you you got to this place where your body was you know you were on death's door and recover from it and then put yourself back and right yep I mean

► 00:48:54

yeah saying it like that it did it there's no there's no justifying that other than I was in this sport that that I really wanted to be in and stay in and after the disease I want to go back to and that was the that was the landscape and so you viewed it you thought okay this is not ideal but you ask the question what am I really you know having knowing my health history right with cancer

► 00:49:23

it all that I went through is going back to my Sport and taking EPO a risk to that to that you know to my to my disease or to my health and I and the answer to that obviously my answer to myself was no you really didn't think that it was a risk to push your body like that and to put all these

► 00:49:47

I mean stuff they're you know they're they're in a lot of ways they're pushing your body in an unnatural way or to an unnatural Rebel testosterone and human growth hormone and EPO and all these and and that's challenging really and that's the only difference that that was made was I mean I had a slight experience with growth hormone before the disease and then after after the diagnosis and the treatment and Recovery I said okay that that

► 00:50:15

that does not sound like a good idea is too dangerous yeah and perhaps in my own fucked-up way I was thinking well that would lead to the growth of two months of you know malignant cell etc etc so but I didn't view those to this in plus I don't think HGH is for cycling I don't think is very effective anyways I think it's a waste did you alter your diet well for sure yeah but what changes did you make when you when you came back from having

► 00:50:45

answer man I was and again this is the stuff that we can talk I talked about forever and you know and it's almost sort of mocked now you know because we talked about the change in diet and the increased you know intensity of training and the reconnaissance and the technology and the wind tunnel and we did all of those things and they all worked you know but it sa there mocked now because people now know the truth we all know the truth and people say oh he told us it was all that other bullshit told us it was the training he told us it was his diet right well now we know

► 00:51:15

is just the doping what wasn't but the doping end that was the last that was the final piece yeah which just was unfortunately isn't it was as we've said numerous times it's just an it was unfortunate and it was inevitable but that was the final piece and the and there was also the piece that we never talked about of course right so ours yeah see this is the weight you're carrying around I'm what I'm asking you about your diet I literally didn't know that you had discussed this ad nauseam yeah so you're carrying this around you're always

► 00:51:45

he's assuming that yeah you if you look at if you look at me racing in 96 before I was diagnosed and then you look at me when in the tort 99 I miss 20 pounds difference mmm so I mean I went and I had this when I got out of sort of my cancer Mission you know and and recovered and took a year and a half away and went back I view I mean I viewed racing bikes as life and life and death I viewed it I viewed my disease as a competitive event as a sporting event it's me versus the

► 00:52:15

position looking at the scoreboard how we doing and then when I got to when I got back on the bike it was it was it was like life and death and so everything was intensified starving yourself training your ass off just being as you said a minute ago just being generally fucking totally crazy for a result Matt not mad but Madness you were starving yourself to be lighter yeah

► 00:52:42

well that's part of it I mean they need these poor guys down and they're a lot skinnier than we were I mean this is guys riding five six hours a day and not eating I mean it just it fucking sucks how do they do it you don't eat this is just just deal with it just go to bed hungry wow Justice keep your body weight light it's all power to wait so is she were still I wish I would like to know what the fuck these guys are doing now I would like to know it when you see guys with faster times and really

► 00:53:12

ridiculously stringent drug testing yeah and well anytime I go anywhere near that I just get I just get destroyed because I don't know the the people view it as me accusing them I mean I've made because I get a lot of questions so I'll Tweet back so I don't ask me I have no idea you know people take that as saying well you just you just blame them he just accused them of doing the same shit and

► 00:53:37

I feel bad for those guys man I feel bad I feel bad for any top level Rider that is raising their bike in 2015 and has to answer questions about a guy from 1999 like if I was winning in 99 and what is that 16 years and somebody asked me a question about somebody from 1983 I said what the fuck you talking about don't ask me that question like why are you asking me well some do 20 years ago well I'm here today so but it's well that's the craziest thing about you in the sport is your inexorably tied

► 00:54:07

there's no way to pull it away from you yeah like that Scandal was one of the at least in the United States yep was one of the biggest aspects of that sport ever it's still I mean it any any any story that gets written I mean so I don't know if you follow track and field or all of the stuff that came out of Ben Jonson it so that's that's the old Ulster been but there's there was just this Revelation that came out of international track and field and the Russian Federation and the covers up there and all of those stories that get written whether it's on dead

► 00:54:37

spin or the New York Times or on twit they all reference this story as well you get put back which is I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing but it just it brings people back to that you know to my history yeah it's like it's baseball and Barry Bonds and it's just their they're tied there's just no way they're going to you're going to separate the two of them together yeah it's it's it's got to be a very bizarre thing for those people that are racing yeah that's them yeah you should yeah

► 00:55:07

don't want they don't want to know what he knows who they are that's the most fucked up thing about it's like you're like I mean in a way like Tony Hawk is the only skateboarder I've ever heard of the only I'm out of Charlotte met a few other ones but I don't remember the names yeah but Tony Hawk is that guy like think of skateboarding think of Tony Hobbit you think of bike racing think of Lance Armstrong and now that I think of swimming you think of Michael Phelps yeah this is yeah this is a fuel Greg lemonds a diver you think of him I guess he's

► 00:55:37

kind of a swimmer these but did not regular months Greg Long Cycles together Greg Louganis Louganis sorry dude I'm not pay attention but at least you said cyclist I did I'm getting better great we'll get it Greg lemonds probably like what the fuck yeah um there's just it's weird when you have a sport that's where the public locks on to one person and they don't know any of the other people and I like if it's football there's like fucking hundreds of guys with hundreds boxing

► 00:56:07

guys but with cycling is just so few yeah and you carrying the weight of that sport in the United States and trying to popularize it as well as holding on to this lie yeah yeah yeah don't yeah I mean I mean that when I hear you say that I mean it it and you may not be defending me but it sounds as if you're defending me so I don't I don't necessarily want that I mean I don't defending you

► 00:56:37

right what I'm doing and I'm trying to illuminate reality in a pretty objective way well you can ya do that on your next podcast because me sitting here right now people are uncomfortable no it doesn't make me uncomfortable but I'm of the belief that nobody wants to hear that shit there's still I'd I think people are upset I know they're upset so some people do I mean look you're gonna have people that are upset what I think what we're dealing with when it comes to the Internet is just a gigantic number people there's too many people to like say some people on this some people

► 00:57:07

you can't you can't manage it would do hundreds of millions of people who can get on their Facebook or get on the Twitter and just start giving their input right now and that's never happened before and when that happens you're going to be understandably sensitive to the outcome yep yeah yeah what was the blowback like like when you when you did the Oprah thing and then you just went out into the public did you just try to lay low for a while yeah I tried to well there was there were several

► 00:57:38

variations of quote-unquote blow back there was just the Public's perception so if I walk down the street which I have I have to admit it was was better than I expected right peep nobody is if I left talking with Oprah and I walked out on the street and you know people were throwing shit at me I mean that just that's never happened could happen one day but it hasn't yet there's the blowback which is the most important part which is the way my kids were treated I've got five kids three older ones you know I was very concerned with

► 00:58:07

what they heard in the hallways you know what they what they saw on their social media stuff you know what is what does that news due to them that is the most important thing and a real credit to the City of Austin and the schools that they go to and our community and their friends and the kids in the school very little blowback so that was for me that was that was like the biggest relief like people can throw shit at me and say shit all day long but if my kids were treated roughly I mean that

► 00:58:37

just I would break your heart wouldn't it I mean yeah and so chemists yeah that'd be the by far the worst so that was that was very fortunate that it was not seamless I mean there was some stuff but they managed it and we managed it in the community managed it pretty well and then there was the legal blow back which was which was pretty nasty I mean I got here as soon as I stepped off the stage with Oprah called a stage the lawsuit just piled up I'm in and piled up big

► 00:59:07

so and how many of them are still ongoing right now is one just wants what the federal government won the federal case and the federal K work but there were in some of them were highly publicized and some were not some the the problem the team was ensuring all of my salaries and all of my bonuses unbeknownst to me and so because they didn't have the money and so when this goes down all of these companies came back and said where's our money and I said well who are you there's a real word so the

► 00:59:36

him I knew about one situation right the big one the SE a case which which has been settled since but there were many many others and some were public somewhere private but they all had to get settled and so we've navigated that landscape and now we're just down to the postal case the federal case and when is that going to be resolved that's a good question it's been going on a long time and it came on the heels of a two or three-year

► 01:00:06

oh investigation which you're well aware of through Jeff novitzky and through the US attorney's office here in Los Angeles so once that case was closed then the Civil Division picked up the postal case and it's been ongoing for years and and you know we sort of finished that first phase of litigation and that it'll go to trial maybe a year from now I did in Washington DC we talked about this very briefly before the podcast we wanted to kind of save it for the podcast I don't understand the criminal investigation I don't understand

► 01:00:36

allocation of resources towards someone who was bike racing I feel like in a world where we have Bankers that causes gigantic 2008 financial collapse when we have pharmaceutical companies making billions of dollars getting people hooked on oxycontin when we have crime and murder and all the fucking problems we have in this culture to spend taxpayers dollars on bike racing a guy who may have cheated or definitely cheated in a

► 01:01:06

sport where everybody's cheating yep that seems kind of fucked up well you can it's McCarthyism I mean you can have first of all cyclists don't have any lobbyist nobody's out protecting us whatever we did or didn't do in Europe 20 years ago the banks do big Pharma does The Eccentric Setter so that's kind of a good ol boys club that that we're not a part of but and we've talked about this offline I mean when you have a federal agent and a guy like Nowitzki who's

► 01:01:36

who's his made his career with these types of cases whether it's Balco or bonds or Marion Jones when you have a guy like that that all of a sudden is interested it's going to happen you know the and when you have that you know particular agent or any agent that walks in to interview a witness or interview an old teammate with a badge and a gun

► 01:02:02

they're talking yeah gets weird right yeah and they don't just kind of Investigation yeah it's so of course you I mean I know I heard what you said of course I don't think it makes much sense but I'm I was at I was in the cross here so people are going to say well of course you don't think it makes sense but look I mean and I listen to your to your podcast with Nowitzki and I mean it's just

► 01:02:30

there's some bullshit in there and so what specifically you know I think the idea that and I again I'm not I don't work for the government I don't work for the US attorney's office here but I think the idea that he was brought into the investigation I don't know that that's necessarily true I think I think and again I don't know Jeff but I think he went I think he looked

► 01:02:59

those cases I mean and whether or not and by the way when you're an agent for the Food and Drug Administration I don't know how I mean all of these things have missions he was you know he was an agent for the IRS and so then that's when Balco and bond started I don't I don't know the doping and baseball is an IRS issue I don't know that doping in cycling 20 years ago is an issue for the FDA I mean they regulate who makes aspirin and who gives you your lettuce and your eggs and what does that have to do with but I think he I think he was

► 01:03:29

to Mystic when it came to these cases whether it's Barry Bonds or myself and and and you know he thrived on that well I think you look at it two ways in one on one hand he certainly capitalizes on these high-profile cases he certainly goes after them on the other hand him capitalizing and being the rabbit investigator that he is it highlights the issues that are going on sure so I think the real problem

► 01:03:59

the allocation of money like how much money is being spent on these cases you know he told me that the Barry Bonds takes it through they only spent like $100,000 I didn't I didn't expect that from I didn't question him and I didn't research it beforehand I didn't I didn't know that that was even going to come up but then once I did research it it seems like it was a fuckload more money than $100,000 yeah well that's that's obviously that's laughable but whatever the number was it

► 01:04:30

you know it wasn't a hundred thousand but it was it was probably not as much as what was reported but hey that's

► 01:04:39

that's the United States of America that's it that's what they get to do and also you get a guy like him and that's how these issues get highlighted and that's why we know about it because he was so aggressive in his tactics who so aggressive and chasing down anybody that he thought was doing these drugs that's why we know about these cases and it's such an extreme detail yeah yeah yeah and it was it was it was it was it wasn't pleasant watching that are listening to that podcast I mean it and the

► 01:05:09

acted I don't know if your bullshit me or not the fact that he wanted to do the podcast with me he did yeah he asked to do it well what kind of crazy is that well I think you wanted to find out like what are we felt about it what it feels like now you know he wants to I mean it means I'm going I mean he works right now doing drug investigations for the UFC fight and he's done a fantastic job to the point where as I was telling you before the podcast we've seen radical changes in Fighters physique

► 01:05:39

and their performances guys have like guys who were World beaters have dropped off substantially there's the the word in the Mixed Martial Arts Community when I talk to Fighters when I talk to trainers is had a gigantic impact and they're terrified yep because they've been posed he's very strict fines and probationary period yeah and as you also said before the podcast I mean you have a sport where you know the bigger and stronger you are physically the more your pummeling somebody else's head

► 01:06:09

and yes different is different yeah it's different than feels dull it is definitely different I think it's much more it's much more important is this sport just as exciting

► 01:06:21

it's pretty damn exciting so it's hard to say if it's just as exciting or not because I think there's a lot of great fighters who are world champions who are clean that it's just it's like some of the all-time greats I mean there's great guys right now Frankie Edgar clean as a whistle Chris Weidman very clean the rockhold clean who's the new Champion the middleweight division there's a lot of great fighters to clean it's it's hard to tell there's a lot of Fighters who weren't clean who are fucking awesome when they weren't clean Vitor Belfort

► 01:06:50

who went on this wild run for like at 36 years old when he they had this is one of the problems one of the big problems with the UFC was that they had legal testosterone replacement for a short period of time right for a few years and guys were just fucking juice into the tits you know like a skittles oh they would come back with these hyper human levels of they would test them and you know like a normal person in your testosterone level would be like lo3 hi-8

► 01:07:20

800 Vitor was like 1475 and he looked like a fucking Silverback well and just hyper-aggressive super confident that's different you know that's that's dangerous and winning and beating guys did to you know to a pulp right that's it that's a different situation he said you know you're not talking about an extreme endurance sport like that kind of aggression and explosion wouldn't benefit you in cycling because it's such a long endurance race and also

► 01:07:50

the benefit isn't that the end result isn't someone someone's Health right doesn't get compromised by it yep yeah so yeah so I mean that's I don't know that sport that well and and I don't know what people's feeling are in and amongst the sport I mean you just give a pretty good perspective on it so more power to him there it's just a it's a messy to pull it out it's messy because it was so pervasive it's like if they had figured out its

► 01:08:20

if the tour if half the guys were clean and half the guys were dirty than Tour de France and then they figured out how to pull the drugs out from half it would be messy right because in the be like okay well what happened why were these guys doing so well and now they're not the guys are winning or not winning but if they the tour seems like it's so pervasive that if they pull the drugs out the same guys would be winning the times would be slower but but what happened what happened was

► 01:08:50

primarily I guess through dude Nowitzki is investigation which which when was closed he more or less handed everything to you saute you saw to picked up the investigation and and then they acted they gave me the lifetime ban that Lefty like when the world reads that in 2012 it was the summer of 2012 the world reads that the impression is or when I do open for example which is three or four months later the impression is that we were hanging a blood bag six months ago like it's a current

► 01:09:20

event it feels although it had been it had been seven years before any line had ever been crossed ever even during the comeback so but it made it current The Comeback made it current for people Nowitzki investigating getting everybody to speak through his own tactics it made it a current event when it when it really it really wasn't it's like it's like I remember sitting there 2012 thinking

► 01:09:49

this shit's going down this is this is unbelievable being in the middle of it being me this is unreal and I thought you know and we're talking about 1999 through 2005 but let's use 99 as an example I remember thinking to myself who won the Super Bowl in 99 and it was the Broncos and Elway was the MVP I remember thinking to myself what if I opened the paper today and the NFL is open to case against John Elway in 2012 I would have read that in gone this is Joe

► 01:10:19

is it April Fool's like what the fuck it isn't like an old guy who stands on the sidelines now like so it just they were able to go way way back and and side step and ignore any sort of due process and statute of limitations and and they made it a current event I'm not I'm not blaming them or defending myself I'm just telling you what happened and you know that you know it's not totally accurate but well it's because it was so long

► 01:10:49

long it went on for so long like remember they have that Nike commercial when that Nike commercial when you were doing that Livestrong my feet Nike commercial and you're riding your bike and you're talking about people calling you a Doper this is before you had come clean that was in 2000 yeah and you this is this is before you'd never failed any tests there was not a but you still had to address it in a fucking Nike commercial yeah so this is this is something that was out there was ill-advised yeah it seems that way but that's again I mean all of this

► 01:11:19

whether it's agreeing to that commercial or the way you treated I needed you know somebody in my life to go I just read this script and or this storyboard and I think that's a real bad idea yeah but did you have anybody like that in your life well clearly not but did anybody suggest it no no one but no but I was isn't that hard though because you're such a fucking winner you're late you're on top of that role nobody wants to say hey man don't do that dude

► 01:11:49

dude it's like when you're when you're in that position nobody everybody saying yes yes yes walk yes that's a great idea yes Lance yes absolutely right now yeah yes it's the nobody's sitting there playing The Devil's Advocate or saying I think that's a bad idea there's I didn't have that Northstar man and I again I'm not the fucking buck stops with me man it I should have been mature enough and worldly enough to go bad idea let's make another commercial or bad idea

► 01:12:19

let's say something else in the next press conference but it seems like the the weight of it all in the air of it all was so thick that you kind of had to address it all the time because it was being thrown at you all the time I was I peripherally watched cycling peripherally and I knew about it everyone knew about it but but but the more defensive I became and the more aggressive I became in the denials all that does right is what my Tepee some people or supports good lad did you

► 01:12:49

I heard it in his voice I believe that but what it really did especially with the Press was it just it just made the next occasion the next question the next episode even more inevitable like it just it added fuel to that fire like I'm you know looking back in hindsight I should have just said like I'm not going to talk about or do whatever the answer was but instead of saying you know it was literally like finger in your chest

► 01:13:19

Q don't ask me that I mean that is when you're guilty that's a real bad approach right and it's the one that I took and quite honestly it's you know probably one of the main reasons that we're sitting here today talking about this why do you think you took that approach and looking back on it because I because that is the approach that I took in training and in racing and even these are guys that I raced against that I liked but I would make up reasons

► 01:13:48

it's too fucking hate them like I'd read something and be like look at this asshole did you read what he's and he probably didn't even say anything I'd take it and be like I can't believe he said just as fuel just as motivation so that's all fine and good when you're training and you're racing and you're competing but when you step off the bike that you have to have that switch to say okay that's been done you won the rich don't you we're not going to go treat another human being that way right and in just a professional context or in a press context you got to turn it off

► 01:14:19

man and I couldn't like I was I had my finger in people's chests on the bike off the bike everywhere and so my bad dude I mean II didn't have the ability to turn that off I mean it's good to be a competitor but it's not good to be too competitive and once you start the once you took that approach once you started with that approach did you feel like there was like a weight of momentum behind you like to dig your heels in and stop it and try a new approach

► 01:14:49

would be very difficult well yeah once once it gets rolling it's tough to tough to alter what was it like with the people that you were close to obviously the people that you trained with they knew what you were doing but what about your family and your close friends how many of them were aware of what was going on I think by and large I don't know I wouldn't have asked him and they wouldn't have asked me I think it was sort of this to your friends never Halen Man command I think it's more Donuts don't hold

► 01:15:19

don't ask don't tell really yeah because it probably you know they probably didn't they didn't want to know do you have close friends outside of cycling yes and they didn't ask you yeah well no they didn't but really I mean they might also ride bikes so they're not in the sport but right but yeah nobody's sort of Silent saddled up at the bar was like dude come on let me will ya no one wow that's fucking crazy if I was your friend dude I would have got you under I was just gonna say you guys

► 01:15:48

are you drunk like come on dude we're gonna hike oh yo JoJo would be talking about it nice I wouldn't remember that time I got him all fucked up and no no he admitted it I would have never said a word until you came out once you came out and I would have told until the guy with the badge and the gun showed up and then you would have said everything I would have ducked Jeff novitzky know I would have hired some lawyers I believe you guys sit with me when this guy comes in yeah it's going on when want to know nobody bike racing nobody to mocked it nobody bike bike racing like a kid's bike

► 01:16:19

what you are you have a gun someone stealing bikes no they're the killing people with bikes the fuck's going on with that gun yeah what happens in these podcasts when when the interviewee has to take a leak you go take a leak when I don't worry what happens to the podcast we'll just pause it for a second what about the people at home I'll talk to them don't worry about oh yeah that's right you're also here to don't worry about it I'll take a leak it happens all the time it's no big deal oh really yeah okay all the time don't all right well I'm gonna go take a look take a look please do one thing about athletes they drink fuck

► 01:16:48

clouds of water Lance is here pound it he's hungover to his a very specific schedule he told me he drinks two cups of coffee in the morning it takes a shit they drinks water all day and then he waits until about five about five then you started drinking

► 01:17:05

that's a good drug I was going to ask him about marijuana because if he smoked marijuana and he was holding in all those lies that shit would fuck with you like I smoked some weed and I'll think about a lie I told in high school don't fuck with me it really will I'll think about some shit that I did in high school make me go oh oh oh why the fuck did I say that like it net that's the one of the crazy things about marijuana never lets you forget

► 01:17:33

it'll bring those things up to you trying to hide but alcohol alcohol is like don't worry about it pussy alcohol is the best drug if you're trying to hold back a lie just throw that down and you know as soon as you can't walk straight you're thinking about that as soon as you know you're thinking about the song was playing you're thinking about your whatever thinking about other things it's a good it's a good close your focus drug whereas pot is the opposite pot is a open

► 01:18:03

your focus this fascinating though isn't it Jamie forget you have a secret yeah you forgot you don't give a fuck about your secrets I mean that's why people makes the horrible sexual decisions when they're drunk you know I mean it's also why people think that people that are drunk shouldn't you shouldn't have sex with someone who's drunk even if you're drunk mean that's why they're the crazy feminist try to say that that's rape another man and woman have sex in their drunk It's rape well they say because you're obviously not exactly of sound me depends on how drunk you are

► 01:18:33

are right but at a certain level you're certainly impaired you can't make good decisions it's funny though that a guy who's just such an athlete lifelong athlete pounds each like that ask him how long does it we're talking about marijuana and whether or not you used marijuana while you were holding back all those lies and how it would fuck with you because when I was out think I'll get high and I'll think about some shit I lied about in high school I'm going to go like

► 01:19:05

paranoia and it'll illuminate areas of your life that you're trying to avoid hmm the economy of all this is a fascinating aspect of it because there were a lot of people that were making money off of you racing a lot of people there's a gigantic industry and for them to pretend that they didn't know what I knew as a fucking comedian

► 01:19:33

who again peripherally Watch cycling you know I'd watch you win and I'm like damn that motherfucker one again damn that's it you know I mean I've never raced raced bikes I never rode bikes is so for me and I knew you know I'm like how the fuck does the US Post Office not know how to fuck this Nike not know how the fuck does they know they know they know they can pretend they don't know but they know if they didn't if they didn't know

► 01:20:01

then they're irresponsible that's irresponsible but they kind of knew and they just said it's all right we're getting away with it getting away with it but then once the shit came down they all wanted their money back yeah well

► 01:20:17

that's a weird aspect you can't talk too much about this right that one to that one gets sensitive for me third officer one tricky definitely likes one I know you can't talk about it but can you talk about this is this is a reality when you are accused of defrauding the federal government which is what they're saying because you were riding for the US Post Office that was the team and U1 x amount of money during that time they can sue you for three

► 01:20:47

times that money correct

► 01:20:49

all right so they want a hundred million bucks

► 01:20:55

yeah a lot of money how's that going that's you know honestly that's it that's the only active case so that one does get a little trickier to talk about just from a I don't want to giggle crushed by my lawyers but we like our case we think that we're confident in the case we believe that the Postal Service while none of this story is

► 01:21:24

it is perfect we believe that the postal service and it their own numbers support it I mean the Postal Service Commission three separate studies to analyze the effect of the sponsorship on the team we believe they made hundreds of millions of dollars and and we know that they were also using the team as a sales vehicle so coming to the to during the tour bringing over potential new clients bringing over new clients there were actually converting their business to The Postal Service we know that happened and we

► 01:21:53

that it equaled a significant increase in Revenue so we like our case I mean and at this point what I like to have all legal issues out of my life yes but settlements not an option and and so we have to just fall back on what we think is the strength of the case does that if they made a ton of money while you were being dishonest is that exonerate you from mowing the money like

► 01:22:23

how does that work well I'm not a lawyer but my view of it's called a key Tam case which is a false claims case my view is is and I think is one that that our side shares is it's about damages right what was the Postal Service damaged right and what can we prove to be the damages and you know if there are no damages

► 01:22:49

then I would like to think that there's no case but it's it is what it is that the federal government is interested in the Department of Justice is interested in a case and we and I have no choice but to fight it I don't I don't have after you know the Dozen previous lawsuits I'm not in a position to really cut any more checks and so I'm in a position where I have to go I have to go fight this one out how do you get by financially now

► 01:23:22

well the first thing that I did was was and I saw this coming to this was going to happen as life was big I mean three houses we had Jet and he had the whole so you just take that burn rate way down so you just your overhead goes way down and you know the crazy thing is is if you'd have told me before like you're going to go sell a bunch of shit and so you're playing I'm like to that is life is going to suck was that

► 01:23:50

well just you know the house and what I'm right this is I'm not trying I'm not bragging I'm just telling you what really happened and but I would have thought man that life is going to be terrible as you take it down and you live a simpler life and you get your burn rate down and you get it manageable life's exactly the same like I don't know I mean the happiness factor is exactly the same yeah like none of that shit he's on that they've done studies on the none of that shit it's more

► 01:24:19

convenient yeah right obviously getting going direct some we're not dealing with a terminal and and you know fuckin TSA obviously that's different but take some more time you know around more people but I'm just as happy as I was yeah they've done studies on people that actually complicate their lives with more success more houses more things and it actually makes you more tense it gives you more to think about well you gotta yeah I mean you got to keep a you know you have to feed that Beast yeah and so you

► 01:24:49

you get a little bit of the dog chasing the tail going on and you know life life was moving real real fast for me then and it moves a lot slower now which I don't I don't it might be a little slow for my taste right now but I don't I didn't like it when I was that fast so you cut back on all the expenses and what do you do do you earn money now like what do you do to earn money you know occasionally so I'll still speak and sometimes I'm paid to speak

► 01:25:19

and then they're just other other appearances I mean I still have some Investments that you know that help sort of ease that pain but you know and who knows what the future holds I don't know what if that stuff dries up for ever comes back or who knows what is it like to sit while this is all going on and watching the economy of this story grow and develop because it's not it wasn't just the lawsuits there's

► 01:25:49

so there's books there's documentaries is all these television shows it's all its focus there's ad Revenue coming from those shows is all these people that are dedicating all this time like their careers become a big part of their careers become telling the Lance Armstrong story It's a Small industry yeah I mean there was the industries that benefited on the way up and I was one of those Industries there was a sponsor I mean you look at Trek Bicycles for example I mean before the first tour I think we did a hundred

► 01:26:19

85 million in sales I do a billion now so yeah a big difference so you have those sort of Industries but then you know on the way down so those are all people making money on the way up and then on the way down it's I think it's it did happen but it's probably normal and natural that people capitalize on on the way down and look at Bill Clinton I mean is he's going through everything he went through believe me there were plenty of people going all right now it's my turn to make some money and fair play I mean that's just that's just the way

► 01:26:49

it is in you know some people may think that's that's BS but shit I mean everybody was hopping on on the way down well they have to write ya mean it is a gigantic story now your your friends didn't know what you were doing when it came out how many of them had a hard time with it how many of them were cool with it like what was it like you know it's yeah some I mean obviously the people we you know the sponsors

► 01:27:19

Ted Wright did any of them stay no not know how many did you have at a time

► 01:27:25

maybe ten but they have to leave right I mean like some of them are publicly traded companies so they have concerns about that some of them are just covering their at whatever they that but they're all gone in friends are interesting I mean you have I mean just use the foundation is it as an example right I mean the by was on the board I was a chairman of the board I was the founder the board was my friends but these are the friends that say okay you're out and so I get it that there might be a strategic

► 01:27:55

and for that but then when you never hear from these then all of a sudden these people disappear from your life I mean the way I sum it up is any time anybody goes through anything and I don't know if you've had some heavy shit in your life but when you're going through it people either lean in or they leaned out and some people lean out which means they run away and you're surprised by that and you're like what the fuck I mean that guy was at every champagne party we threw in Paris and right and now he's like I've heard from the dude in three years like that's strange

► 01:28:25

right but he probably has his own motivate either covering his own ass or maybe he's one of these people that has a tremendous sense of betrayal and it's just so pistol and hurt we have to I mean I have to be receptive to that but then they're the ones who leaned in right and and most of those people don't surprise you but then there are others that lean in and they surprised you're like wow

► 01:28:46

I didn't I didn't know you had my back like that and so you get surprised on both sides and at the end of it all did you look around you're like all right this this these people are here to these these are the people that are going to ride anything out with me which is is kind of cool and refreshing for me to to really know right if you're if you're if you're in the if you're loading up a bus with all your most loyal closest friends I fucking nose on that bus now yeah and is now at this point and

► 01:29:16

for 20 years you know there was just a bunch of Chumps that that were on that bus but you know as soon as soon as the the let me change the music they hopped off and so what tell you takes adversity yeah to illuminate that is no other way in until you test them you really don't know yeah adversity I remember this is the funny quotes that we were this is a postal time but we were once I was out of I don't remember the Postmaster General

► 01:29:46

generals name his name at the time but we did a this is totally unrelated but you said adversity sort of mind me he was introducing me at this thing and he wanted to say you know introducing me he's got to overcome great adversity he says his Lance he's overcome great diversity and I'm just thinking Jesus white kid from Plano I didn't overcome shit when it came to diversity whoops

► 01:30:17

raising kids yep we both have children and obviously when you were raising a kid you're teaching them about life you're trying to set an example it

► 01:30:29

did you have to sit them down and explain what was going on how old were your youngest at the time oh and the youngest were one and two whoa yeah but they didn't have to explain so I've got I have three kids with my ex wife Kristen and and Luke is now 16 and twin girls that are 14 and then I have a 6 and a five-year-old with Anna and by the way all you know it's the craziest blended family you've ever seen like those

► 01:30:59

five kids are five siblings it's the most beautiful thing and and and Kristen are like sisters I mean it's I got a great situation that's awesome awesome awesome takes a lot of work but are took a lot of work to get to this place but it's awesome and Kristen to her credit was who I was married to during this this ugly period and who you know would obviously would have known everything has been great whether it's whether it's conversation she's had with our older children

► 01:31:29

Aaron on while they're at her house or just just helping massage this thing but I'm still sitting down with my kids I mean our whole you know I go to therapy and it goes we all go to them the kids go week so we still sit down and just kind of work this out dude this is is not this is a complicated thing and in the crazy thing is my older kids have kind of gotten through it the six and the five year old will come into it right I mean not the internet and you know fucking Google Wikipedia you name

► 01:31:59

they're going to they will they will grow into this like it's some point my six-year-old boy who suggests a fanatical athlete and everything is sports and sports and sports I mean I mean I hear him and his friends talked about Tom Brady and one of his friends like oh he's a cheater my son loves Tom Brady it's like always a cheater I'm like it ain't gonna be long before Max Armstrong is it school and some kid in another class goes isn't your dad that cheater but he's going to be like what like he doesn't know that he's so he's going to grow into that so that

► 01:32:29

conversation will then be had at that time it's tough to have it with a six-year-old today but so I know that's coming right and so but I have the experience of having dealt with it with a 16 year old boy who at the time was 13 and and still dealing with it with those guys and you know so far I mean I think we've been super proactive probably you know Anna and Kristen but I think I should have been more proactive but I think it's an I think that's a good spot so you

► 01:32:58

you have group therapy sessions where you just disgust so I've set with with all three kids the older kids you know and it's just sort of free-for-all wow yeah and they had no idea until the Scandal broke yep and what was their reaction the girls were they were nine so they were still they were young I mean nine year old girl they really didn't have a reaction Luke was was you know was a 13 year old

► 01:33:29

and also they were eleven so Luke was 13 they were 11 they still sort of wouldn't immune to it you know he was he watched when he watched Oprah because it aired three or four days later I had sort of fled to Hawaii I mean he called me because I talked about Luke on on her show with the whole idea that I know he's defending me at school I mean there was enough smoke that people were going dude your dad's are Doper Etc and he was defending me and my point Oprah was

► 01:33:58

that at this point I get to say to Luke stop defending me you don't need to defend me anymore right it's true and so he watched that which is probably a heavy moment for for him it would have been awful watching it with him but he called me he said I understand and I love you and and but we still I mean that was three years ago we still have to talk about these things man it how often not not often but it still occasionally comes up especially if

► 01:34:29

talking about the importance of being honest and truthful and having character yeah and he's an athlete I mean look I mean I think that's the only thing that I will and I will say I mean I don't want ideal and he's my son's huge six six three 230 pounds plays offensive line I got and that's good that is not too many people would be fucking with them yeah he's I think he's good there but he's also a real sweet guy like he's not he's not he's not anybody's face

► 01:35:00

but I don't want him to say his football passion or career what call it what you will ends up you know at a high level I mean I don't want him in a messy spot where he's got to make tough choices right in fact I don't want that at all and football is a sport where you have to make tough choices

► 01:35:17

I mean I'm not a football player but I can yeah if I could imagine I have friends yeah I can imagine yeah that's mean and it's also open and it's also brought up by coaches and it's also brought up by trainers I mean it's just it's a part of the game as much as I'm sure it is in cycling yeah

► 01:35:39

yeah that had to be just it's just how to like be chewing you apart when you know that your kids defending you and you know it's going to come out you know he's having these conversations at school and he's like my dad's not a cheater yep well we didn't know it was going to come out I mean even even when the of its key was investigating I mean that that that case went away right so we thought at that point maybe we're done you know and and and

► 01:36:09

and it didn't I mean you saw to picked up the investigation and then you know based on all his work they picked it up and then it came out but man it but I can it happened fast like it it was seemingly like instantaneous man it being Enterprise you

► 01:36:31

yeah I think I mean I guess it's yeah it surprised me but should anybody would have been surprised I suppose and it was just surreal you know the way it all came out and and and in the method which they sort of advertised the findings you know it was and there was a whole strip to their credit I mean if there was a strategy on their end so let's let's

► 01:36:59

Nowitzki is work let's do some additional investigations it's packaged it in with something they called the reason decision and then let's go out and talk about it all over the place like that that was kind of unbelievable to me why do you think they spent so much time and resources going after you as opposed to all the other people who have one Peak well because they needed a landmark case that I think there's plenty of people that that and I

► 01:37:29

I'm just guessing I'm not this is not based on any proof and and I've had conversations with you side I mean I think we're still getting to the point where we can do stuff together or have a conversation so I'm not trying to criticize them I mean I think they're there ought to be a place for them but I think there's also realistic I mean in reality there are there are people that think they're ineffective they think they spend 10 or 20 or 50 Min whatever the number is millions of dollars a year and they don't catch anybody right

► 01:37:59

if you look at the amount of positives is must be you know less than 1% well if I told you well Joe we're all good man is less than 1% testing positive he would you would write you think that's right yeah so they needed they needed a landmark case to say no we are effective and here it is and I think also from a legal perspective it sets some legal precedents for them that they can use going forward in other cases with future future cases

► 01:38:30

but and then you add in just a ginormous story that was guaranteed to get a lot of press but it still pains me to look I know what went on we all know what went on but I can't take when I hear that this program or this particular athlete being me was the greatest fraud in the history of sport and I can't that's just not true right and then when you hear that

► 01:39:00

the the our team's doping program was the most sophisticated program in the history of sport well we also know that's not true right so those are and then and then the final one which is really I think bothered a lot of people that this person being me forced young impressionable young men to put dangerous substances into their body right that just is not true and but if I heard somebody to somebody said that about

► 01:39:30

out one of my son's friends I would be pissed off too like I'd be like to screw that guy right but it we all made our own choices we were all grown men they were bad choices right so most would say we would say but but there was no forcing to do that what is it like now like in I mean I want to get too personal but your personal life like people value honesty it's one of the most important things in friends and done in Luke

► 01:40:00

lovers when you have this thing where your

► 01:40:05

on video over and over and over and over and over and over again being deceptive over and over again defending yourself when you it's and then you come out and say it's all alive and so this is like a database of lying like what is it like like trying to get people to trust you right hey man that's this is what this is what I talked about in the beginning is that that road is a is is net that will be never that that is a never-ending path

► 01:40:35

I will be walking that walk the rest of my life and there were a lot of people that will say I'm never trusting this guy ever again I don't care I don't care how apologetic or contrite he is I'm done but that's that's the the key is that I have to be committed to that path right and so I can walk that walk and and and take each case individually and one-on-one but talk about internally we've talked about it

► 01:41:05

endurance that will be the longest the longest walk of the longest journey of my life do you have a code that you follow now I mean have you in posed like a stringent set of rules on yourself we're like you know like because of this history you can't lie about anything ever no I mean I haven't thought I mean I guess the answer is no because I haven't there's not been a you know some sort of a new mission statement or so

► 01:41:35

is key but

► 01:41:37

but I mean life was pretty transparent anyways before that but I mean there was obvious that there was the huge deception but it's not as if you know anything crazy out there outside of that right yeah but I mean you know it's just that's a big thing with people you know to be able to trust her friends yeah people trust their boyfriend or girlfriend you know yep

► 01:42:07

for sure what is life like for Lance Armstrong now like is is everything calmed down to the point where the stress is minimized to say except for the lawsuit yeah it's as I said a sec second ago it's just simple man I mean I still I love to work out you know so I train every day I think that's what you do I primarily run and then I'll do a little bit of gym work and then I'll ride occasionally although very rarely very rarely get on a bike

► 01:42:39

and why is that I just it takes too much time and it's just takes too much time well I mean you could run for an hour oh I see if you do a hard run for an hour you got to go ride for three hours right let's two more hours at you but you got to get all this shit on and go out and do traffic and it does it psychologically fuck with you when you get on a bike it's it's I mean I I have some bitterness there towards what we've talked about primarily in and around

► 01:43:07

economy of it how it was right and now everybody's like no nope we're out we don't want right we're going to you know so that's that's but that's that's on me I got to work that out and that's not that's not their fault that's that's my fault so there's some of that and it's nice to do I love to rhyme I grew up I ran before I wrote so it's nice to go into something where I can still get I mean IG working out you probably do it the same way as almost like a therapy like you're in there you're suffering you're just working shit out right and that's what that's what I do when I

► 01:43:38

when I work out and it will go for a long run so I do that a joke I mean we have you know I have five kids in four different schools so it's I'm like an Uber driver for my kids traffic in Austin is not like LA but it's bad now it's getting bad now dude so all I do is like you're driving my kids around too many people talk about how great Austin is that's what happened right well the but they didn't build that City 50 years ago to accommodate two million people all right and then applied a lot play a lot of golf

► 01:44:07

which is why we're going in this podcast little bit so I can go play play riviere they meant don't miss my tee time I don't want to mess with UT time I appreciate your time very much man but we're already done we can keep going why are you going I don't know if Higgs is here yet did he is I'm sure he's here someone's calling me no son him and then you got the hunter book we have talked a little bit about Hunter yeah definitely I didn't know you were a fan until I saw your maybe Bill Burr retweeted maybe you're a tweet that said

► 01:44:38

if anybody if there's one person that's dead that you know that I could meet today or was alive but it was behind her yeah it was a Instagram post that I made by one of his incredible quotes about it was about heroes and it was a it was particularly poignant about it was after Ronda Rousey got knocked out yeah I posted it that people say they love the idea of someone who is like a superhuman person like someone who's a legend

► 01:45:07

Noob who can defy the odds because it gives them hope in this crazy world boredom and cubicles and I'm doing a shitty job of paraphrasing it's a fantastic quote and then you got a hold of me about it and had that incredible book sent to me what Hunter was running for Sheriff of Aspen yep yep so he yeah he just you know he kind of ruled the valley I mean he lived down in Woody Creek but but the whole the whole valley was the Roaring Fork

► 01:45:37

Valley was kind of his domain and he was just in his best friend was was our longtime Sheriff he was the sheriff for 26 years Bob proudest who's a great friend of mine his undersheriff is probably my best bud there guy named by the name of Joe desalvo so how a Kid From Brooklyn ends up in Aspen is now the sheriff is on his second term so Joey and Bob we're Hunters best buddies I mean fucking crazy stories and and

► 01:46:05

not to toot my own horn but in Bob is a sweetest guy he was he's the guy that was sheriff for 26 years he says to me one day says he calls me champ which is also funny he's his jab he says did you ever meet her and I said no I never met him and he pauses for a long time and he goes man he would have loved you and I was like that was like fucking a that is a compliment right there like this economy Hunter was was was not sand and a lot of ways but I know I mean he had such

► 01:46:34

a diverse group of friends whether it's whether it was our sheriff or whether it was Lyle Lovett or whether it was Johnny Depp or whether it was Doug Brinkley I mean just just this diverse group of fucking artists and thinkers and lawmen and and druggie he's and dude gnarly I mean he go out to the shit they did was just I probably can't even talk about it I'm sure you can he's dead fine no but some of the people are still alive still alive we're talking before the podcast about his ritual is before he would write

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like yeah superhuman so I see read that and if for those listening you just Google you know Hunter Thompson's daily regime and it'll come up I think Esquire wrote it and shit starts at like what is he wakes up at like 3:00 in the afternoon right and it just you gotta go read it I mean it's it's unbelievable so I thought this is so unreal it ain't true so I called Joey her sheriff and I said dude have you seen this and he says yeah I said that's not real you know what he said he said

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that isn't enough he said that's light can you believe go read it people and then imagine that that that didn't quite get there well Jamie why don't you find it because it's kind of hilarious we could actually read it on the air dude yeah he he had a strong tolerance for substances and he I don't think he ever went without they just he wasn't interested no no yeah I mean that was that was the life that he was interested in it was interesting

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just getting fucked up and having a great time and writing about shed and pontificating on the demise of civilization but it but you know I don't know if that's what caught up to him but it definitely did yeah I mean how could you did you ever see the late appearances I have a really hard time watching his later appearances like who do like Conan O'Brien show and you could understand a word he was saying like here it can see it yeah three PM rise through five Chivas Regal

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with morning papers dunhill's 345 cocaine 350 another glass of Chivas another Dunhill 405 first cup of coffee reminder reminder this is p.m. yes first cup of coffee for 15 cocaine for 16 orange juice Dunhill 430 cocaine 454 cocaine 505 cocaine 511 coffee dunhill's 5:30 more ice in the Chivas 5:45 cocaine etc etc six P m-- Grand

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ask to take the edge off day three hours he's been awake if it's stressful seven o'clock Woody Creek Tavern for lunch with Heineken two margaritas coleslaw taco salad double order fried onion rings carrot cake ice cream a bean Fritter dunhill's another Heineken cocaine and for the ride home a snow cone a glass of shredded ice over which is poured three or four jiggers of Chivas goddamn it nine starts

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it's noting cocaine serious now I got serious 10 drops acid 11 chartreuse cocaine grass 11:30 cocaine etc etc midnight Hunter S Thompson is ready to write that is so and then it keeps going on 12:05 to 6 a.m. chartreuse cocaine grass Chivas coffee Heineken clove cigarettes grapefruit dunhill's orange juice Jin continuous pornographic

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six in the hot tub champagne Dove bars fettuccine alfredo Alfredo 8 a.m. Halcyon that I say it helps you sleep that's the first that was before I ambient yeah 820 sleep wow she's Christ so I asked the guys asked the sheriff's I'm like that cash it's not real yeah there's the the quote that I post myths and legends Die Hard In America would love them for the extra Dimension they provide the illusion of near infinite

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Leti to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality weird Heroes and mold breaking Champions exist as proof to those who need it that the tyranny of the rat race is not yet final yep mean is that I mean that applies to you to do that I understand that yeah we apply to your life yeah I mean I mean that's part of the reason I'm sure why some people are pissed at you is like you were a legend with a caveat yep yeah I mean the the the the

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three in its totality right if if I was just a cyclist we wouldn't be having this conversation but but the cancer part of the story right is what everybody really nobody nobody could relate to cycling out they got to figure it out they started to watch the cool we want to get right the cancer part of it everybody can relate to right I mean everybody is either had the disease themselves or lost a loved one or had a loved one or friend or neighbor affected by it so they're like alright I'm in like that that's some

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bullshit right there that does you so I and they rallied around that and that's you know that's that's why that fall came Swift and Hardman well there's parallels in life when it comes to this story in a lot of ways because everything is kind of messy you know the the reality versus The Narrative it's always messy and there's so many variables that don't get discussed in the so many aspects of it that they're flexible and they move around and that's

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yeah I mean more and more now I'm in the transparency we see in our society today whether it's politicians or politics or sports or entertainment enjoy mean due to imagine like I always say like you know if I give you three names that were alive today like Sinatra we just you know just had celebrated his hundredth birthday if you took Sinatra JFK and Michael Jordan and they were at their Peak today

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TMZ alone that would be nuking people yeah and so it just it's it's we're just getting deeper and deeper into that yes it's you and I think this is just there's no in the beginning yeah for sure well I think what's going on with technology to is we're seeing this very obvious trend that the boundaries between people and thoughts and ideas and reality and facts Yep they're getting smaller and smaller and smaller to the point where they're going to be erased and I don't know

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it's going to happen but I think it's going to happen with something that connects us in a much more personal way than peripheral devices like laptops or phones I think there's going to be some technology that connects us body to body whether it's some sort of a neural implant or something along those lines and I really do I think it's on inevitable yeah I mean the symbiotic relationship that we have with with cell phones right now is undeniable I leave my phone like you you dropped your phone you like fuck where's my phone my phone's broken fuck fuck

► 01:53:31

fuck fuck no here yeah yeah I mean I dropped it so I did drop my phone but I'm like I'm like fucking scratching myself that I haven't had the phone for like two or three hours yeah dude it's that ain't good no it's not good I leave my phone sometimes in the in the car when I go do the podcast I don't realize that I left it and I'll be in the middle of a great podcast like that's not here not even gonna use it it's out there but don't touch it but the fact that it's not physically like I want it right there dude imagine it's like you know you're on here and used to start like

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you got some guests on your like texting I'm going to guess would be like what about Football let's see ya I come all the way over here this godforsaken Valley and that LA traffic and the guys on his phone yeah well I have had people that are guests that start checking their Twitter like Neal Brennan will try to start checking his Twitter in the middle of pocket what the fuck are you doing I want to see what people are saying about it talk to them afterwards just flip your people ever you don't let people call in and ask questions or delete and ask questions we've done that before but the problem is the people that want to do it are usually trolls you know there's

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um of those might be fun I like if I wanted that kind of a show I would do an all call inch I did at all I did a talk about a couple couple months ago in Denver and 600 people and it was kind of a moderated QA and then we and then the audience was allowed to ask questions and people were cool they're asking questions in the moderator says in there's a line to get to the mic desk questions and the guy says not that this late I'm not connecting you know calling her a troll but the guy says is anybody and

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and really pissed at Lance and want to ask a question it's lady the back she's like me she comes Trucking up there and so you know I was like this is going to be super interesting like hmm what the hell is she going to ask me how am I going to answer it so I you know maybe I like a challenge but you definitely like a challenge I think you just bored and between golf games you want to spar with somebody verbally hey ask kids if my phone got fixed did he text you he's probably

► 01:55:31

he's out there I looked when I went to the so passionately ha cool thanks that's the last thing you said here I'll text him right now you out there who says ha cool thinks he did because he said Chi said you wanted Advil

► 01:55:44

he says like I said Lance would like you to bring Advil he says ha cool thanks and I said you are yeah it was his birthday last night so we went out to dinner and just got when you know way too drunk it happens it do it it happens what we're talking about about technology though about bringing people closer together and this the fact that there's gonna I mean I really think there's going to be no secrets I don't think anybody's gonna have secrets from

► 01:56:14

but in the future right I think you kind of you caught like the wave of this trend before it got even crazier than I mean you caught that wave and even in 2012 the comparison between 2012 and 2015 it's like it's ramped up consider for sure and will continue to do yep yes there's no getting around it right yeah is that good is that a good thing or is it just what it is

► 01:56:41

yeah well you and I are not going to stop it so that that's it's inevitable no one is nobody's I think it's going to not just it's just it's one of the things is going to happen is it's not going to just be celebrities so I'm going to be just people like you people like Michael Jordan or whoever it's going to be everybody right it's going to be if you want to find out anything about Jamie it's gonna be all on the table maybe Jamie was one of those Ashley Madison clients he could have been there I mean if it's key was ha well there have been some fucking

► 01:57:11

Nicholas people that were that want to kill themselves when like preachers and shit like that it was found out but how dumb do you have to be to think that that's going to be secure you're gonna go on some dating site I mean come on man look who's that's that's insane but you know what kind of a fucking weirdo wants to find out about people that were on the dating site well what do you give a shit leave me alone exactly but that's not the world we live in right I gotta take a leak again do you well it's what's on this fucking thing what's in it

► 01:57:41

yeah we're excited we're done I think XI ER it's supposed to tee off at 11:30 but all right where you really yeah but I'll make it I'm going to meet him out there it's all good it's all good thank you answer we appreciate thank you thanks for doing it and thanks for listening whoever hopefully somebody was a lot of people at school I'm sure correct thanks it bye everybody bye well that was fun I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I did there was a fastening think sit down talking to that guy so because he's like it's so weighted there's so much history involved in him and so much

► 01:58:13

so much of a cultural Obsession so much of our society was just glued to his case to be sitting across from the podcast table just talking to him you realize he's just a guy just a guy that was in a weird position and even more weird when you get into it with them and it's illuminated and kind of understand where he was coming from and what it was all about and I think he was really honest and upfront and I think he's very brave

► 01:58:41

in that regards a lot of people just want to bury their head in the sand and not talk about it but that's it excellent podcast I enjoyed the fuck out of it thanks to our sponsors thanks to caveman coffee cave and coffee co.com thanks to LegalZoom go to legalzoom.com use the referral code Rogan the save yourself some cash thank you to DraftKings go to draftkings.com and enter the code word Rogan for free entry know

► 01:59:11

no draftkings.com and thanks also to on it go to ONN itu's the code word Rogan and save 10% off any and all supplements all right friends will be back tomorrow with Molly Crabapple and once again thank you guys for everything much love bye bye