#1248 - Bill Ottman

Feb 19, 2019

Bill Ottman is an Internet entrepreneur and freedom of information activist based, and is also the CEO and co-founder of Minds. http://www.minds.com

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my guess today is the CEO of minds.com it is a open source social media or social network and he's a brilliant guy and a really interesting guy I really like talk to him about his ideas about the future of the internet and I appreciate this time please welcome bill ottman

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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bill is going on here you are here with a book your book a shit come prepared to me and yeah I'm trying to write I'm trying to get back into handwriting for people don't know Bill is the CEO and co-founder of Mines., we've been going back and forth through email and you got hopes by some dude who said he was Joey Diaz it did happen you really believe that Joey's been on my network I'm like

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he was messaging messaging me in Joey's voice like basically cloning it like there's weird people out there yeah yeah yeah every Monday morning or so there's a there's a tweet about someone needs to suck your dick

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I need to suck your dick you need a lot of know that's on the regular what's the notes man

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just some rambling from this morning importance of a book I've not been doing handwriting much at all in the last years probably mostly digital which is not good because I should major in English yeah you definitely lose your ability to write words it's funny I tried writing in for whatever reason I write mostly in all caps no cuz I just mostly just write notes but I tried riding with like lowercase letters and I tried writing in cursive and my cursive is like it's almost like I have to relearn it

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yeah I was Finding just like traveling off the end of certain words but I bought it all together you what I blend it all together with capital and lowercase o why you do that I mean we'll just as a normal person I thought you were just mixing him up randomly okay

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we protesting yeah kind of stupid I'm not going to use any uppercase who cares man there's weird like postmodern theory about capitalization and I got a little bit indoctrinated

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yeah they're like date this one class was called super social justice e right and good intentions are to like this one class was called critical theory and we had to watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer and up I like Marxist theory to it to show how like is the rise up of the lower class so you're forced to write these papers in like a certain way with you trying to prove

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class division class division in Buffy the Vampire Slayer it's there there's like books and books written about Buffy the Vampire Slayer come on what I have to say

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I don't remember it's amazing I'm sure you're aware of James Lindsay and Peter bogosian and and the what is it the Sokol shut then meet her unfortunate the grievance studies hoaxes that they submitted a bunch of fake studies to these journals and not only got reviewed but got loaded and praised for their academic scholarship I think that stem from this guy Sokol who first trolled a lot of the postmodern journals and he was the first and so it is called a sokal hoax to do that kind of trolling it's hard to figure out who's who right it's hard to figure out what's the hoax I got a trick by that there's this one thing called the post-modernism generator online it's a computer that writes articles that puts all of this fancy language together and I someone sent it to me and I showed my teacher my cycle this is this is saying something pretty interesting

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but it was a horse what do you make of all this hoax and you've been hoaxed twice then that thing you just admit in the first minute of the show I mean I think that you sort of have to have the right to coax two people true but I have the right to do that to you kind of the right to troll impersonate but I have the right to get trolled and be wrong but you don't have the right to impersonate like you can't have a verified account but can you Joey Diaz trolling like that guy did to you isn't that kind of like part of Freedom social networks because it's wrong that doesn't make sense it did it also depends doesn't make sense I mean

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like if someone is purposely okay let's say that you find some Chinese bought that's purposely disseminating Incorrect and negative information about maybe a potential presidential candidate let's pick one Tulsi gabbard disseminating fake news about her you know for sure that it's fake you know for sure who this we know for sure who the source of it is you don't think that should be taken down I think that if it's illegal it should be taken down if it's illegal yeah okay what was just lies

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then that could be illegal I'm not a lawyer so I I'm I'm trying to position the network or just like advocate for other networks to take more of a neutral stance there's this cool thing called a manila principles which the Electronic Frontier Foundation wrote with a bunch of other internet Freedom groups which is talking about how digital in intermediaries should shouldn't be making subjective decisions about what's getting taken down and should require a court order now with a DNS provider or you know something less content-focused plain DNS people don't know what you look like. Domain name so what explain what that is it's like where you buy domain and you know but first it's harder for us because we see illegal content and we should proactively take some of it down if we know it's illegal but at the same time you know it's just slippery well I follow quite a few

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people who have I want to say that folks accounts with a dead parody accounts and you know a lot of people read into it wrong and think they're being honest and argue with them like there's this Progressive dad guy on Instagram your fall him the wrong color skin that he's trans racial and he would make these ridiculous arguments about it and elwick was his name he apparently too, can I get to do it but let's say four years ago a lot of those troll accounts had to sort of say we're not this person friend since the one main one I follow is it is now it's now it's known as not Bill Walton he tweets funny sports jokes all night long after like what's on TV as though he's Bill Walton like in Bill Walton

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still has quite a few followers and he still didn't you still get the jokes out but what's your stance on people who make accounts of your stuff put it out there a lot of them you know there's a ton of them some of them actually do good stuff like they make little clips and put those clips online and it's actually it's good it's good for people enjoy the show to get a little one-minute snippet of things and then some of us will pretend to be me and contact people try to book them on the show which is really weird oh yeah but you know I mean who is that is that a 16 year old kid in Indiana I mean who is that it's it's it's but it's overall I get past my own personal feelings that because because it's about me it's interesting

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this is that you know this is strange new ground we're covering in l mean we've been discussing this ad nauseam on the podcast lately that essentially we've been dealing with 20 years of this and in those 20 years it's changed radically made what it is it's become something completely different it's become something that changes public opinion on things overnight it's become something where you can distribute information from you know person-to-person about some you know a huge international news event you can get all of your information for Twitter whether it's what happened in Venezuela or what anywhere there's something in the world you your people trying to social media almost before they returned anywhere are you looking at you know when I hear about something I almost always before I even Google it I almost always go to Twitter and check Twitter and you know and see what's going on she is upset go it DuckDuckGo

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have you heard that one know what's up take a privacy Focus search engine it's like pretty much the only privacy alternative to Google

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take this idea that we say I'll just Google it why do we I mean

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our whole process has been to like Purge proprietary surveillance tools from our

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company and I've been trying to get myself like getting off Facebook getting off Twitter getting off Instagram it's just like they're so abusive to everybody and it's like just bringing people work there I mean Instagram is such a well-designed app are you beautiful but so what do you think is abusive about it particularly Twitter they're all the same do you think they're all the same because they're all gigantic businesses

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yeah and they're all the same because none of them share their source code and they all spine everybody and they don't show you what is happening behind the scenes with the codes doing so like in that in the narrow road to the other day it's like it's a comparative like food transparency you know 50 years ago nobody thought about that and then 20 years ago I want to know what's in my food white but why wouldn't you want to know what's in your apps I mean it's super sketchy what they're doing but how so look what what super scary don't know but we know that they're spying on everyone in tracking you everywhere you go there targeting things that you based on physical location browser history even when you're not on those websites some of their falling around where you're going in the internet and so some people accept that this free search engine with free email and things along those lines except except the fact that a certain percentage of what they're doing is not going to be private

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at least their searches are not going to be probably save you Circle you thinking about buying a Jeep and you search jeeps you look at it you know 2019 Jeep and then all the sudden all your Google ads are about Jeeps like we know when are you thinking about Jeep Bill think that that makes people want to spend more time on Google and Facebook if I think that we're just numb to it and so we accept it. I think it's more than that so there's all different layers of like what we use with your browser's your apps your operating system your food your government your energy like all of this technology

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has code right that's associated with it so when you open up your computer when you sign into a browser when you open up an app you are empowering that out that's how the maps of the world becomes huge monsters corporations is because we all use them everyday so if you switch from you know Mac OS to like a new Lenox for like Debbie and her bun to do if you use braver Firefox if you you know duck tacos actually proprietary which is annoying but they are very privacy-focused and then there's apps there's Minds there's also this other open source decentralized social networks out there that we can potentially Federated with there's really cool new interesting protocols like that and ipfs that are like more corn style back-end so there's actually no servers

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in a giant Warehouse like Facebook and Google it's more it's fully peer-to-peer and we're trying to balance it because not like decentralisation it was good and centralization equals bad but like you know in order to get a suite app like Instagram style you need servers to like process video and so the tech is still sort of immature in the fully peer-to-peer like you know Bitcoin style internet but we're definitely getting there and I just think it's important for people to use things that are transparent to them and respecting our free none of the problems with these giant companies is that once they become big you kind of use them as a default and it's very difficult to get people to communicate with you off of them you know it's it's a hard to say hey man I'm launching this new social media app I would imagine you could speak to this I'm watching this new social media app and I want you to join it before I put them on fucking Facebook I'm running on Google I'm already on Instagram I don't

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I do that man too much and we make it a million times harder for ourselves because we're not scooping into people's contacts and you know taking all the information you are not mines so like when you give your address book to a app who does that every most apps to be an asshole and you share your contacts we not supposed to do that you're not supposed to do that yet but most people do you know your friends didn't give you permission to give Facebook their phone number to do that I probably used to like seven eight years ago if I don't do it anymore I always say the same thing and it pops up kids that's always what I say would you like to share your contact at the fuck out of here you can't have my contacts you asshole I know what you're doing Facebook is a weird one man it's so it's such a sneaky one you know if a Facebook and you know I like all this Congressional hearings and

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inner workings of it all and they're the fact that it profits off of outrage so it wants people to argue like the the AI the computer learning specifically wants people to have like contentious debate about things cuz I keep their eyes focused on the website and if your eyes are focused on Facebook you know then those Facebook ads very valuable it's really fascinating man I think the outrage is unavoidable on any network it's more

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when are you going to are you going to take down there taking down at Ridge

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Tom yeah sure so and it just seems so inconsistent and subjective how they're applying a man even just yesterday I think some journalists got banned from Facebook where the story because they wanted her to show her funding sources were and I even show that so it's almost like they're making this up as they go along yeah, kolinsky sent me this today I'm going to send this to you right now Jamie hang on one second

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hold on I'm very quiet unfortunately is an audio show but is alive are not that are okay Facebook suspended in the now tweets page at the best of CNN and the US government funded think tanks says we had almost 4 million subscribers did not violate Facebook rules were given no warning and Facebook isn't responding to us

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so yeah what is what was the what it would actually started this off I mean who knows they don't communicate with anyone live in Banning legit accounts for years they won't you cannot even send minds.com link through Facebook Messenger right now it's blocked what if you post in the news feed it says careful this could be an unsecure website oh just clicked on a link from TMZ yesterday got the same thing for on Twitter Twitter said this might be malicious there spam there could be mines TMZ link it was trying to keep you from going to TMZ is my caught up in some algorithm I sent a actual Written Letter to Facebook about it obviously don't come back and then there's no human written letter you wrote it was a research paper

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really we had no cuz our lawyer said to that actually proves that you sent them something some sort of diligence but there's just no recourse

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they're lost so explain so someone is trying to say on Facebook Messenger hey you should go check out minds.com it won't let you post that link and what is their excuse they don't tell you now then so is it because you're competing social media Network I don't know I don't want to get into

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I don't know you don't know I'm not going to say to nobody and I'm pretty sure that Facebook got hacked you know they compromised everybody's date I like you want to talk about unsecured there's no more unsecure site that exists it is kind of funny right I mean after those he brings in after all the the Russia stuff

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yeah it's it is kind of funny called somebody else on secure their insecure Mark Zuckerberg is very insecure he seems like he's too rich like you fucked up like he's there sipping water like a robot trying to figure out what the fuck is doing this life I think that they're scared because they know they've betrayed everybody and so it's hard to get them to to speaking interesting with with Dorsey hair because I give him credit for speaking but the fact is that he's not answering the questions he's bringing somebody else in the answer the questions the next go-round and so that should be very many think he actually didn't know the answer those ones I think he probably doesn't know all the specifics because he's a CEO of not one but two different corporations he's busy shit and also return

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true but I think that when we look at the policy that exists on his networks like he is in control of the policy to large the great there's a boy I don't know if that's okay I don't know how large is voices I assume that's probably true but one is things we did detail on the last podcast with Tim pool was how he wasn't the CEO for quite a long time tired and then rehired so obviously there's some contention through some issues and you know there's a lot of money involved in these things and I think that plays a giant part and how they decide to make decisions and but do you think that an Advertiser in reality

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doesn't like say you're an Advertiser and you want to advertise your computer okay and there's a video on YouTube that is about something controversial does it actually make sense for that Advertiser to not show their product on that controversial video don't they want to sell computers depends I mean if the controversial videos are about to how Jews are evil and you have this video about Jews being evil and then you know he liked by Razer computers come on but I can understand not wanting to support and maybe advertisers feel like they're supporting that content by advertising next to it but I also don't think that people when they're watching a controversial video on the internet my gosh you know this Advertiser is completely out of line for being next to this controversial thing I think that's a healthy directions to move this one

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look at another way to look at it is if you are a giant company that sells things let's say your Toyota and you selling Tundras you don't want your Tundra's to be associated in any way with something that you might think it's negative it's their prerogative they're paying for advertising they can kind of decide this is one of the things that's leading YouTube in specific and I've had

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but the tunnel conversations about this it's leading them specifically to try to demonetize things that could be considered distasteful or insensitive or controversial and it's very frustrating to content creators when you talk to them they're essentially saying that they need to do better and that their tools are very blunt that they don't really have the correct Computer Learning tools to figure out what is offencive and why and then there's a human review system which is very weird and we've run into that many times we're like we'll have like a podcast with a Tom Papa who's an uncontroversial fantastic stand up comedian and it's like demonetized and there were like why what happened and then we go with the fucking we talk about we didn't talk about anything crazy and it's really damaging for Brands when it gets the month has right away cuz it's that initial time. That generates the most Revenue so when you have to go back and do it

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I mean so I agree with that but so we built a tool that's like a peer-to-peer advertising tool so it's not what there's two options you can so you earn crypto for your contributions and then which cryptos do you support we have an aetherium base token but we're going to support all of them so what is etherium base token erc20 token what does that mean it means that we basically reward people for all of their activities and people of his posts he gets rewarded in some how much how much do well talk about one token will give you a thousand Impressions so you were not focused on like oh you're going to make money from this get a thousand Impressions from you get a token from 1000 pressions

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when you use a token to advertise on mine so you get a thousand Impressions when you boost your post with it so in a minute if you use the crypto you use a token you guaranteed

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well you guaranteeing people see something we when you boosted it gets fed to people's Newsfeed chronologically like when Instagram has a sponsored posts except for not spying on people to when we send them and yes they do and the thing is we just don't know so this is where are free and open source software is just a seneschal like the big networks there's no excuse for them not to be sharing a software take when you're a public forum on that scale

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the community just has a right to know what the algorithms are doing so you think that they're not sharing their software because their software is encoded and designed to spy on you extract information and sell that information partially Gwen Jamie gives up your contacts and signs up for a nap he says yes you can get access to all my contacts there's a lot of reason and they don't want people to compete with them like anyone could actually take all of our code and make their own social networking compete with us they could start set up on their own servers and we encourage that that's what it like the Federer verse is called that's what Elon Musk does with Tesla all-electric patents for electric cars I think that he open up the pants I don't think if he he open-sourced all the the code of the car but he's definitely moving in the right direction of like he wants to build the market yes and he also wants to save the world to me and you legitimately has any also has a shitload of money and kind of life

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you think that it's almost like

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it's going to help whatever network does that is more transparent stop spying on people is more Community run and evolved wouldn't that be the network that you would think Humanity would want to stick with in the long-term like one that you could move and know for the average person what are they losing when they get on Facebook or Google

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what is it when what's bad would happen now their legs are going down everybody's legs are going down and that makes everyone very sad what do you mean will the algorithms you're only reaching 5% of your own followers organically on Facebook now they're starting to change the chronological feed on Instagram too and they know that this causes depression and they're still doing it because they know that the you know they're they think they're better at showing you what you want to see then you are and they want to make money from it what do you mean by they know that this causes depression they've done studies about mental health in relation to actually Facebook got exposed like 5 years ago for doing a secret study on like a few million users where they were injecting both positive and negative content into the newsfeed and they proved they could affect people's moods this was with Princeton there's a huge backup smell like oh sorry

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right but this isn't of injecting negative or positive content this is just moving these images are these posts around so that lets people see them there's two different topics are the basic newsfeed on Facebook is now a mysterious conglomeration of thousands of variables which we don't know and but additionally like a few years ago they were exposed for having been experimenting with people's brains that's right I remember that now I remember that now that that's right yeah I remember thinking like wow that's kind of creepy

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is there a spirit that are on their site and they're not telling these people they're experimenting on them yeah but do you think I mean if they're trying to make it better do you think that they're really that's a factor that it act it actually cut me and how does it cause depression if they're just if your images are your posts are not being seen by so many people

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have you talked to kids posting on social media and their reactions to how many likes they're getting

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they got very very concerned but that seems like more of a problem with that it is both is that it is on both sides being addicted to blacks are some sort of you know so weird open yeah it's not healthy and we need to learn to not care about that but I think that the core purpose of a social network is to subscribe to someone and see their stuff when people subscribe to you they see your stuff so when you spend years building up a following on social media and say you are in a hundred thousand

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and then suddenly the network says na your friends can't do that anymore

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that's not cool in NC even like Twitter's default news feed is no longer chronological you have to click it to go chronological and then it defaults back to their weird algorithm think so we're saying 100% organic chronological Ross forever as default and then if you want to. You know algorithms or have recommended stuff come in as an alternative fine but that is the core purpose of social media is to connect with people to follow you and Delaware what do you think the purposes do you think Facebook would decide to have things not in chronological order and only be seen by 5% of your followers like what will be the benefit of that for them revenue revenue house so how's that generate Revenue they just know that they can keep you on the out better

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did you get less likes know your your stuff seen by less people doesn't make sense that's a good point it sort of works both ways I think that they think they know the people that you're going to react to the most so as a consumer when you're getting that content

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you know that our lives are showing you what you typically like if you noticed that I'm really not paying as much attention but I believe you

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so yeah for Creator it's hurting creators

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people who post are getting hurt people who are sitting there just scrolling they're the ones who are really getting addicted more so with the algorithms so how are the people that are posting getting hurt their going to hurt because their stuff is being seen by last people because it's not chronological and it's not organic cuz it's curated huh but aren't they doing it because they think it's going to be a better and an experience it's more conducive to your life that's what they say what do you think they're doing it for then they're doing it because they

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had studied through looking at the data how to keep people on the app more right and that way is to give them I say hi Google or if I look at muscle cars on Instagram now if I go to my search tall muscle car stuff so we can get a lot of that I think that's okay as an alternative feed or to put that somewhere I just think the corfid always needs to stay pure because otherwise you're just down the slippery slope again and understands just feeding their bare injecting things into your head that you didn't ask for and they're doing it because they want to keep you around yeah that makes sense how many different companies are subscribing to that is it seems like all the big ones were saying or curating and moving things around and all the big ones have an algorithm this designed to keep you on board right and that's okay to pursue I think there's really cool things you can do with AI and machine learning algorithms

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that is really beneficial but it's just taking away people's reach when they have worked years and years to achieve it it's not okay do you think that this is this marriage between something that is this social media Network that is designed to allow people to communicate with each other and then Commerce like this business like how do we maximize this business how do we get more profit out of this business how do we get these people to engage more and then they start monkeying with the code and screwing with what you see and what you don't say you think that's what's happening yeah but in the short-term working but no arms are betraying everybody trust has to be more of a consent-based system so you know at least give people should be opt out by default and find give me messages to opt-in so that you can show me certain things but this whole Force forcing people into surveillance has it just has to stop

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it's super scary houses super scary to you

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it's just too much power yeah it's too much power for something that supposed to be silly right like what was Facebook's supposed to be supposed to be some silly thing that you just can communicate with friends it was from the beginning all of these none of these networks I've ever really been about the people of the network it's always been closed Source since the Inception so but then look at open that works out there if Wikipedia totally open source Community Ron granted they have their issues with moderation fine but it's a top 10 website in the world is totally open source Creative Commons content incredible human achievement Bitcoin open source money WordPress even is an open source CMS system that is like powering 25% of the internet so why would that happen with social media it should I mean this where was hanging out so we should all have collectively even own it we did an equity crowdfunding

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thousands members of our community actually on the site how many people are on mines registered like quarter million active but the weird thing is that

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even though we're fraction of the size specially small crater to come get better reach I Minds than they do on Facebook and Twitter because we have this reward and incentive systems sort of like game of fight where you earn reach and you earn more of a voice for contributing so you could have an account on Twitter for 10 years and post thousands and thousands of tweets and you never hit that Viral nerve and you just never never really get much exposure so we're trying to help people be heard and so you'll find a small Creator who on other networks has no followers have thousands and thousands of dollars a month

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and what do you think you would like to do with mines in the future that you have been able to do yet

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engineer the control out of ourselves so that we aren't even in a position to really

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take people stuff down or what if someone posts to your house and your information where you kids go to school I think that on the central servers obviously yes we're always going to moderate

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and if it's legal I can stay if the tile Eagle it can't but

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a decentralized social network is definitely where we have to go because and yeah yeah okay it's it's scary and you know you talked about this like things are getting more transparent Our Lives I just started like the inevitable evolution of technology I mean how many hours a day do you stream a couple you know 25 years ago would you thought you'd be sharing you know 20% of your life live streaming to millions of people like your our lives are becoming more transparent just inevitably to the pulling us so you know Bitcoin crypto

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dad torrent torrent type architecture that is just where we're going because it's more resilient it's less censorship prone

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there's just benefits of it I think that we can bounce it to like maybe when you post you have a a decision do you want to be able to delete this at any point all right fine then you can post the central server do you want this to get on yeah it's scary because you know they're scary stuff on the internet it's already like that but you know getting into censorship more does censorship even solve the problem where does it make it worse what problem the problem of crazy content illegal content amplify radicalization the deathly can try when you censor people it just makes them aware that there's plot against them to write it's like a lot of conservatism Twitter find somebody else Sam Harris actually just sent me an article that was detailing the bias against conservatives on Twitter that they actually done you know like some real studying it and

► 00:42:17

it's pretty demonstrative all the monsters it affects both the left and the right now in trouble for sure that's what I was saying I watch that video that he did and you know it seems to be getting targeted and so you don't have he's been censored on FaceTime I mean most of the stuff coming out of our tea is Progressive which is weird and who knows what kind of games are getting play behind the scenes with the rush I mean who knows but the point is they have a right to be there and I mean look at this is not YouTube's fault but remember the YouTube shooter I mean she thought she was getting censored on YouTube and she went and brought a gun to the YouTube headquarters like people get pissed when they get sensor

► 00:43:11

it affects you right but in her case you're talking about a crazy person in love what really didn't know she just thought this wasn't she just wasn't getting promoted the way she wanted to it when I don't think anybody was actively doing anything to hurt me. Saying their stuff was Tim saying that the soft censorship of the algorithms people getting demonetized this has an impact on psychology okay I seriously am so I'm not saying they were deliberately targeting her and it's horrible what happened but

► 00:43:47

so what you're saying is that these algorithms that they use in order to maximize their revenue and give people things they like but actually takes away from things being posted chronologically keep certain things from being seen by as many people so it keeps him from being as viral so keep the whole thing for being organic

► 00:44:08

yeah yeah makes sense yeah it's it gets to that point where we're realizing that all of these things all these social media things are really recent we've only had them for a few years and we don't necessarily know what the rules should or shouldn't be so it's good that means one of these if I want to have you on I wanted to find out where these upstarts were these new people are there coming into the game like mine's like where you're coming into the game from and what what is your position on what's wrong with the current state of affairs has messed up stuff on social media I'm not we'll get pigeonholed into be like you support all of this this crazy stuff first of all the most of users on minds are like artists musicians filmmakers activist journalists just trying to get their contact out there is a very tiny minority of like actually you know crazy content but you said crazy content what do you mean you all right yeah

► 00:45:08

I'm going to make decisions on what is and isn't crazy that's not that's not my place but

► 00:45:13


► 00:45:17

it's been proven that censorship is not the answer I mean to look at the history of prohibition

► 00:45:25

yeah it's it's give digital content it's substances it's at anything in for people want information they want the ability to make the decision for themselves this really do and then the argument on the other side is when people are Distributing and I'm going to use the big are quotes hate speech that's when it gets slippery to me because who's to decide what's hate speech and what's not hate speech may have seen people make some ridiculous fucking statements about all sorts of people that are inaccurate and they do that in order to categorize them and pigeonhole them and in an easily definable and dismissable characterization you don't you just decide hey that bill ottman guy that guy is a vest oh he's a radical that and he believes in this oh fuck him and like okay fuck him sweeping right and then cancel culture comes in like really cancel the allotment when I listen to him anymore do you know he lied to us about a source or whatever the fuck you doing have you heard of Daryl Davis no I have not once I forgot. David's your boy

► 00:46:25

I haven't met him but he won't kiss my but I want him to be my boy he is a black man who befriended hundreds of members of KKK and he got them all to leave you got them to leave the following 200 members after he was like yeah I was going to talk to you

► 00:46:45

really skip a JVC that end W kamau Bell's Show when he visited with those white supremacists not that specific one it's really good cuz he's such a nice guy he's so like easy to get along with that there were like sort of they would they let their guard down around them and then we get to see these people kind of confused they like this guy you know

► 00:47:10

that's why I think initiating human contact via the social networks like that's really important but to play Devil's Advocate it's one of the worst ways for people to express themselves in a way where are you consider other human beings experiences and feelings and the way they going to receive what you're saying cuz there's no social cues you're not interacting with them you're not looking at them in the eyes it's one of the weirder forms of communication between human beings and one that I would argue we have not really necessarily successfully navigated it yet

► 00:47:45

I agree I was actually saying that I think we should use social media more to get people to get together in real life do you know who Megan Phelps is she was with the Westboro Baptist Church you know the the famous one that the protests those soldiers funerals and you know an end anything like rose ruthlessly viciously fundamental Christians were ever do a lot of protesting at funerals and do a lot of stuff to try to get shoes with them for her for the longest time and then got on Twitter and through communicating I told him you meet her you would never believe it in a million years that she was ever thus fundamentalist that she was ever some mean person sending hateful messages to people because their son was gay or whatever it was now she's completely cured of it she's has no contact with the church anymore she's marriage has a kid she's completely outside of it she does podcast now

► 00:48:45

give TED talks and speaks about radicalization in about how she was kind of indoctrinated in grew up in this family and her her grandfather Fred Phelps was this you know he's like fucking mean guy like a really mean veggies the godhatesfags guy you know they would have those signs they would hold up at at the soldiers funerals and he's like really inflammatory stop but through Twitter

► 00:49:11

to her communicating with people on Twitter specifically her now-husband like he sure they're like you just with rational discourse and communication and she was going to well change oil change and so that's why Banning them I mean and you I saw on a recent podcast you've been talking about Redemption you know so put I'm curious what do you think people what is how does that look like it look in the case of like Megan Phelps that's a real thing right should really did change another example is Christian P cleaning to Noah's he was a white supremacist KKK member died who's been on Sam Harris's podcast he's also done to Ted Talks so now speaks out against it and talks about how was indoctrinated and talks about how lost he was and then he was brought into this ideology there are there's many people like that all over the world matching my

► 00:50:11

another perfect example he was an islamist I mean he was you know I'm trying to form a caliphate was literally thinking about radical Islamic terrorism is being some sort of a solution now he's the opposite now he's trying to get people to leave and is trying to get people to be more reasonable and secular it would happen in the street yeah yeah some guy called him a fucking Paki I guess and punched him in the head and fucked his head up and he's got this giant caught on his head from a ring and his face is swollen up and apparently they have the guy on video and you know they think they're going to be able to get on the show is a super nice guy the hard thing is that right yes we see the Transformations take place makes us feel warm inside and yes people people can change but at the same time what are people have to shoot should people have to go apologize to Twitter oh I'm sorry like can I come back I mean that's not like sometimes people are going to think completely differently than you

► 00:51:11

you just have to deal with it and that should be okay we we shouldn't force people to come in to our way of thinking in order to have discourse that's a very good point and like who is to decide what this path to Redemption is whether or not you've completed it right who is to side like maybe you are like a high for radical ft and maybe Jamie's points of view and you are just so you like fuck him he's banned for life which a lot of people have been banned for life and when you look at some of the infractions they've been banned for the boy I don't know about that one that has the lyrics I almost none of the high-profile Banning cases make much sense know it's a short-term Solution that's creating a long-term problem yeah that's really what it is

► 00:52:02

so I just think that we have to talk about it more I don't know it's like why can't we just get everyone to talk about it like at the same time

► 00:52:14

I mean it's like we're just wasting time here well sort of but I also think we're figuring it out as we go along with a bunch of different competing ideologies you know you have yours which like you dude you look like a hacker unlike House of Cards you look at a guy you call in to break into the Mainframe server not that honestly I can I hang out on and get lab and check out, but I I cannot I cannot code I'm not going I'm not claiming to be a developer I don't know their level and is incredible I understand right well that's like what if someone says to me like you're an MMA fighter Mike I'm definitely not they are at another fucking level like there's a little martial arts but just settle the fuk down right same kind of thing I think though that you your ideology is going to be your at your point of view and perspective is going to be very different than maybe someone

► 00:53:14

looks like a radical Marxist and I shouldn't they be a lot of Pope posting site to someone is like an extreme socialist someone like AOC you know someone someone who thinks that we should give money to people who are unwilling to work someone who thinks that we should try to engineer society and tax the top X percent in a 70-something percent of their income is a lot of those different people and we have to figure out how to to make it so that

► 00:53:44

well we'd have to figure out a way to make it so all the ideas can compete in the marketplace of ideas right all these different ideas can compete we can find out which one is better and we can find out which one is better

► 00:53:59

you don't always find out which one is better the right you find out which one is the most I mean that's what happened with Hitler they don't really find out what's better you find out what what's got more Jews behind it

► 00:54:09

it's just it's too risky even being in the position that I'm in you know I see these edge cases like we say luck if it's illegal it can be there but we still see edge cases where we have to make a decision

► 00:54:25

I mean

► 00:54:28

let's see I mean there is I don't even want to go here but I will be there is a type of Animation anime yeah that is very sketchy Uber child porn animated child morning and we've taken the stance that look it's it could fall under obscenity laws so we don't we're not cool but you know that is a huge debate that that that it has not been decided by the Supreme Court if animated you know kids like they will do the weirdest stop and

► 00:55:07

I just don't want to be telling people what is and what is not art

► 00:55:13

so like some of that Japanese stuff with tentacles like some of that stuff is just like what is happening here but I got like octopuses bank and checks in every hole and they're choking on it and they got one their ass and one of their vagina and it's all like very very liquidy does los platter and going on like what the fuck is this and is that okay because it's just art right I mean if it was a person getting fucked left right and Center by an octopus you'd like yeah I think it was Crossing Lines here that's bestiality but if it's an image and have done it in the image is a girl with a school girl costume on she's dressed as a Catholic school girl with little skirt and she's getting Bang by an octopus or what do you do with that

► 00:56:00

right yeah I'm glad I don't have a social media site where have to make that decision for the real concern would be is this something that is actually a legal that's the thing run and we will try to look at the case law and we've seen that this type of stuff has been called obscenity for in so we're just not going to risk it but I still you know in a

► 00:56:28

are nipples nipples look right did you know that free the nipple started out with Jim everywhere it's a whole it's a whole movement to be honest I'm just a really interesting piece about a statue that got banned from Facebook and it was a statue

► 00:56:47

like I'm sorry that's not that's not realistic that that's not helping Society taking down a naked statue Adam Levine her shirt off and Brian Redban was like it was with Janet Jackson got in trouble for why is it okay if Adam Levine shows his nipples and Janet Jackson's nipples are offencive because they're sexualize because she's a woman this is the weird fact men had to gain the right to have their nipples showing in public back in the day when's the day if you if you go on the the free the nipples side there's this go on their Instagram where I saw it back when I use Instagram but

► 00:57:37

you know Society is evolving we're going to get there we're going to be able to handle it I think or give people the control so that they can only see the types of things that they want to that's ultimately what it's about so you should have like a filter like do I want 18 + do I want PG-13 like what what kind of Distinction do I want and then when when things come up on things that Instagram has been doing is like they say I follow a lot of hunters and Instagram has things where they say the warning this is sensitive content natureismetal gets popped on that a lot to Nature's medicine Instagram side that's all like these crazy images and videos of animals eating other animals attack in the Reynolds and sometimes some of them they decide this one's too fucked up you know they just decide right and I like this one of them where I a lion is looking out of a wildebeest asshole like from the inside like this is eaten through it

► 00:58:37

stop making that it's looking out at the asshole this when you going to have to click on your own you have to double click guys wanted to wear their shirts off they had like 1920s and 1930s they had to wear in pools that had to wear a top pull up the covers with Aly and right there lifeguards flash rebellious nipples 7 that's hilarious so is Tarzan 1937 New York State's male shirtless band that's when they overturned at the incident attracted press attention is Atlantic City the other waterfronts simile mandated against man nips with that legal Domino tipped along with the help of Hollywood hunks

► 00:59:34

and you were talking about how their Twitter has porn yes a lot band from Google Play for that Twitter has it they're up on Google Play it is a substantial amount of porn you know you follow like some of them gals and they just want to see look here's one of my pussy right there take a look like full-blown well as you follow certain pornstars I think it would change their own terms but they're just allowing it because they know they want to know the weather, bro

► 01:00:12

yeah it's a problem if you hand your phone to your kid and then they accidentally click on that link and I like Mommy what's happening with her

► 01:00:21

but Jonathan hate I hate her height

► 01:00:25

height height height he was talking about an interesting thing where

► 01:00:30

you know it should there be an age where we really get into social media I don't know I mean people should be free with their free to do what they want to do but

► 01:00:41

you know the internet is the Wilderness his book of the coddling of the American mind I'm in that right now I just finished his other one and I'm working on that one and a lot of it has to do with social media and a lot of it has to do with the impact that it has and young people do you know you're not really designed for this and you might be able to handle it if you're 32 year-old man or a 35 year-old woman whatever you are but if you're a 15 year old girl this might I might be overwhelming I mean and The Angst and anxiety and you know why you know they see if they're not at a party where their stuff's not getting liked that has an impact on them and I think the networks need to be helping educate people how to you know whether it's this info educate people how to research I did see that YouTube is starting to do like a you've been on this for too long type thing really yeah you fuck

► 01:01:41

I want to build stuff like that. That's really important yeah helping people get off yeah I haven't even seen that I haven't done enough time on YouTube where they kick me off

► 01:01:54

I have it's easy you know what I sent Eddie Bravo The Thing from the guardian about the upsurge pizza believe in a flat Earth and all that because of YouTube videos and that apparently now YouTube is they want to censor those they want to leave they they feel like Flat Earth videos and take another one check this check tabs if I'm wrong about this but I think they also want to lean on those anti-vaccination videos I think there's a concern with those

► 01:02:31

I think they're worried about a bunch of different things along those lines you know like they feel like there's disinformation and outright lies being spread how do we combat it we on this platform what do we do they feel like to have a responsibility I think there is responsibility by cable what is the responsibilities there's a debate I think it's more to educate people have to research as opposed to saying this is or is not true because who's deciding not well I believe the Earth is round but I also believe it's such a stupid conspiracy that you should have it you should be allowed and it should be something you should show your friends like dude I need to go look at this this has 37,000 thumbs up

► 01:03:15

and they really believe that the fucking Earth is flat they really believe there's a nice fall outside Antarctica they really believe that the sky doesn't move that it's that you know that we're in some sort of a I think it's like projected images or something like this a bunch of like really really wacky theories like I think those are okay of course but I think Freedom of Information sort of transcends a lot of these little debates so if there was more freedom information so we actually knew everything the government knew about all of the different conspiracy black projects black budget

► 01:03:55

more information is going to get both sides the ability to understand what is happening don't know what's happening and there is lots of secret stuff the problem with that those then you're dealing with foreign governments are way better at keeping secrets and we are and if they have access to our secrets has been kind of disturbing is seeing the actual influence of these Russian troll Farm Civ had on not just our political process but sowing seeds of dissent among people and certain conflict amongst people and how people are buying into it you know like this up Podcast been talking about a lot with Sam Harris and Renee diresta is her name right

► 01:04:37

where they talked about how these Russian troll Farms set up a conflict by having a pro-muslim rally across the street from a pro Texas Pride rally and they just set it all up and and had an in a skirmish broke out his people across the street from each other and that they do this with they were having these African-American groups that were seeing anyone but Hillary and they were going to like try really trying to get people to vote for Jill Stein really trying to get people to even consider Trump but anyone but Hillary and then you would they were also having like the ones that were against them trying to like make debate the trying to make anger and they don't think you can stop that it's a fascinating thing isn't it that this is like a concerted effort how do you feel about that when you when you are you know you're in a position where you have a fairly small network but it's influential right and then see watching Zuckerberg and the Facebook shit on TV and they're talking these Khan

► 01:05:37

people and senators and they're talking all these politicians about what's going on and how to stop it and what they're trying to do and and you feel like a god like this is kind of this is an arena that I'm getting into what would you do

► 01:05:51

I mean I think more conversation needs to happen. Less so I think you're right I just buy want more information from the government from the corporations trolls from trolls

► 01:06:04

I mean yeah I feel like I have a pretty good ability to discern what is and is not troll Behavior I think that help people understand how

► 01:06:17

how to read how to absorb information like Banning an account that is trying that has an agenda is everyone has an agenda it's a propaganda back and forth between everybody I don't I mean just because somebody posts a Jill Stein meme okay what's your point

► 01:06:42

their intention okay I'm not saying that you know regime change behavior is positive or negative I don't know how to switch gears let me step in here when you when you saying that Jill stein mean there's absolutely nothing wrong with you posting a Jill Stein me like say if you have a joke about Jill Stein you want to post it in a mean something wrong with that what's weird for people is that people are being hired to make these memes and they these memes may not have anything to do with her own personal ideology they might just might just decide hey I'm going to collect this check and I'm going to and they make apparently Corning to Renee in this podcast with Sam Harris they make really hilarious memes like some of them are really fun I listen to a podcast yeah that's great you said that we had to go through thousands and thousands of them

► 01:07:34

that's a web of trust which is interesting sort of like a peer-to-peer it's not like a Chinese social score but it's like if you the people that you're connected with

► 01:07:47

show a certain account to be untrustworthy then you know cuz you trust your little Network so there is sort of like a peer-to-peer score I we were looking at different ideas I think that

► 01:08:01

transparency and understanding what's going on with different accounts and if it's the real person that's all important stuff we don't we don't want frauds we don't want to send photo but

► 01:08:15

you know we just have to really step back and think about how we're doing it rather than letting Ai and algorithms run the show do you think that there is a I want to say there's a market is there a demand for this like a lot of people responding in a positive way to the way you guys are approaching a game yeah for sure every time there is a big Scandal every time whether it's Nino data manipulation or you know our first big growth spurt was during the Snowden days when he really saw the information people are really upset with what's happening it's just you know

► 01:08:57

where they supposed to do like this is what they're using for their Communications not easy to just achieved you know a multi-billion person that work overnight so that everybody's there and so we're stuck but again I think the supplementing just installing these alternative apps not just like the whole open source market I'm not even here trying to just talk about what we're doing it's like if you don't have those apps on your phone and you don't use those browsers I'm sorry you just you're not helping and people just want to vote with their energy think and vote with their time so it's more of an education thing. Just don't know that this matters and that this can help change the whole internet simply by logging into a nap once in awhile

► 01:09:44

it's like it's like organic food I mean we want to put things into what we want to support things that have integrity so when you click something you are supporting that thing

► 01:09:57

when you're sitting on an Apple day you are feeding that app that's how that's get all the money that's where they get all their funding that's that that's where it's all based is in user retention and energy and do you think that most people are even aware of those who think they're just using it because it's convenient

► 01:10:16

the biggest sure are going on right now than most people don't know that Facebook owns Instagram they think Instagrams like cool because you know it's not Facebook what is what is the difference between the two obviously with Instagram it's just pictures mostly and then whatever the postage for the pictures but with Facebook it's a lot more commentary and long verbose statements on Chet and then people arguing in the comments about it

► 01:10:49

yeah they're all the Instagram Founders left abandoned ship to Whatsapp Founders abandon ship the Oculus founder abandon ship all because of privacy stuff they're like you took this good thing while it was proprietary so I would argue if it was ever actually a fully good thing but at least it wasn't you know completely corrupted by Facebook all of the founders of those companies left because they hate what's going on what does the WhatsApp guy joint signal which is a really cool open source and an encrypted messaging app so these people know WhatsApp sound the same anymore

► 01:11:28

WhatsApp is owned by Facebook

► 01:11:30

I don't know come on bro give me the dog on a jungle man deep into this man that's why I want to talk to ya it's and they're all buying up companies are using the same sort of ideas integrating the messages between what WhatsApp Instagram and Facebook so it's all one system centralization

► 01:11:58

it has happened hasn't been turned on yet but I believe it's happening I like your DMs on Instagram you can have to download the Facebook Messenger so what is what are the challenges for something like Minds when you you're trying to take off like there was a social media Instagram type thing that was around a little while ago member I used it like once and I posted about it and

► 01:12:22

what was that called but then Vero said we was but a lot of people are saying is bullshit and their proprietary closed Source no idea what's going on same as the other while lot of apps try to say that there Alternatives and that you know they support X Y and Z in a privacy or Free Speech or what not but

► 01:12:45

I don't think it's any new paradigm if they're not showing their source code so that people can see the algorithms the people who cared you know obviously most people are going to go inspect the code but just the principle that the experts could cuz they will you know there's all kinds of think tanks and we're not do they would love to dive into the source code to understand how these companies were actually behaving so you know waving the Privacy flag without being open source

► 01:13:13

this is getting a little bit in the weeds but a lot of this comes out the licensing of content or code so the the license that we use for our code is called the general public license they gplv3 which means that anyone can take our code and do whatever they want with it they can sell it they can do anything but if they make changes they have to show them with everybody else

► 01:13:36

so it's sort of like the Creative Commons share alike license which is essentially says the same thing take my video photo remix it do whatever you want but you have to share the results with everybody else open source base e means you can do whatever you want with it you can take it make it your own you know keep your own little secret sauce if it makes you feel good think I can fly because you know free software sounds like

► 01:14:05

free as in free beer not free as in Freedom so you know

► 01:14:12

licensing is really what this all coalesces into and it's been proven that you can make a lot of money with free and open source software I mean look at WordPress it's a hugely successful technology corporation in multi billion dollars people share the code that's how they created a network effect because they did that it's like the Grateful Dead would let everybody record their music and that's how it spread so it's actually good marketing tactic and it also gives transparency so people can see what the hell's going on right now when you started this what was your objective and were you thinking about it as a potential large-scale source of Revenue or were you just thinking this is something that I would like to do and do correctly because I don't think anybody's doing it this way open source you know prosensor sharpro freedom of speech anti-censorship and

► 01:15:12

you know to just do the bare minimum amount of managing content

► 01:15:19

I think everyone should be able to make money I don't think it shouldn't have to be mutually exclusive like you do something for free for everybody and you also can make money that's like a big misconception we're trying to give people the tools to make money I mean we have like a monthly recurring subscription system serve like a crypto patreon type tool so you can subscribe to people we had the ability for creators to accept Fiat dollars but we took it out because it's stripe and stripe is a close Source system which we just didn't have long-term faith in some sort of an extension patreon most likely band Carl

► 01:16:11

because argon of a Sargon who yet because the payment processors went to the more like luck has very strict terms and we didn't want to be talking strictly we don't want to be subject to overlords Bryant in our company decisions or so you know that is most likely what happened so they stepped in and said hey we don't want this guy to be a part of the site yeah and I think the striped probably stepped in with a lot of explicit content controversial content I mean it's in their policy that you can facilitate payments dealing with that type of content and now we're seeing Banks actually going to go after people will think about was that his content that would that there was questionable wasn't even related to patreon had nothing to do with it was on another person's podcast it was from six months prior and that other person's podcast was on YouTube and nothing to do with a tree on and they had specifically said that they were not going to act on content

► 01:17:11

that was outside of their Network they were only going to react to things that were on patreon right cuz you can make little blocks and stuff on Patron right they do have some content yeah yeah but that's not what Patron said obviously the processors I don't want to I don't want to act like I know I also don't want it to seem like I have an ideology that I'm trying to push right now like I'm very open to moving in the direction that makes the most sense for the community I'm not I'm not attached to what I'm thinking I'd like to wish more people would wish more people would do that I mean I try to do that I'm really getting way better at it but that's something I actively work on like these ideas and I have I not fucking married them don't argue them look at them look at them and if someone says something different go huh

► 01:18:11

claim some sort of a personal identity with your with your ideas that's that's part of the problem that we have I think it's what's a main conflict issue with social media is one of the things I see a lot of it like I used to do it way back in the day if you go back to the early days of Twitter I used to argue with people I used to argue with people on social media then I realize some long time ago like there is no good that comes out of that I might correct someone if someone said something that's incorrect but I'm not going to argue and I'm not going to insult and I just I'm just not I just needed at work doesn't work it just makes people argue back and insult you back and nothing ever gets accomplished occasionally dunk on people and it's fun but Ria in reality especially me I mean I kind of dunk on people for a living so I'm just going to

► 01:19:02

I'm not going to engage and I don't this is going to sound corny as fuck I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings I really don't I don't want to be in some argument where someone is looking at their phone my fucking fuck you fuck you I don't want that I don't want that I get that I know what it is I know what it is but it's it's in this flat medium okay this two-dimensional medium of typing texts and sending texts and you type text and send text the conflict that arises through that is never beneficial in my opinion I don't get anything out of it so what you know if I'm expressing something almost always I try to express something about shit I like like oh I love this new show all this movie was great all this is amazing like check out this picture so you might want to check this out it's it's honestly like same with me like I was much more trying to convince people about what I thought was right out of college

► 01:20:02

hi mighty it doesn't work. We'll just you know are allergic to I'm allergic to handle it like it's not no one wants to talk like that it's one thing if you're having a good time yeah I'm trying to just like show someone up have fun with and it's more comedic but when you're actually taking yourself seriously like it's not going to work no it's not going to work and it actually has the exact opposite effect it's like the expression I got jealousy is like a poison that causes gout Chelsea is like a poison that you take yourself because you don't like what someone else is accomplishing I've got a terrible job paraphrasing at my worst paraphrasing of all-time Mumble mouth motherfuker that I am but but the idea is that it has the exact opposite effect like you're jealous about someone that actually makes you feel bad instead of them feel bad

► 01:21:02

also makes them not want to hang out with you but you know what you're doing by back and forth on so I don't I don't know people who do engagement and sometimes they have these anxiety moments where they don't sleep for days because they're involved in these Twitter feuds I mean I know people that have done this would have gotten involved with refusing to wake up at 3 in the morning to check their Twitter feed in like all Christ man like you got to go go go on a yoga retreat or something like he can't do this can't live your life like this I think there may be some value to the debate habit should be there be there I'm not going to spend my time doing it that way some people want to spend their time doing it that way and if there's cool mechanisms for you know the most voted content to be seen so that okay that's interesting to check out sometimes to it to look at feedback but

► 01:22:02

it's it's it's not nearly as an effective way of communicating your ideas it's like making something more personal that you no more I mean even videos is is more effective than that because people actually have a chance to look at you or obviously in person and I think my concern really about the Futures I'm holding back a sneeze right now sorry

► 01:22:30

talk to you together. I don't think I can one of those borderline ones

► 01:22:36

what are you supposed to dispose stare at the light

► 01:22:39

are you trying over assistant know I'm trying to get okay we're good we're out of the woods by chance. What was it what we just saying something no talking Your Way Package

► 01:22:57

I lost it I lost it in my holding back a sneeze that that's what was worried about AI not a augmented reality that's where I'm really worried about not artificially augmented and Mike my concern is that what we're experiencing right now and it's flat form of two-dimensional taxed is something that is very overwhelming to lot of people's Time menu looking at some kids there online social media 8-10 hours a day just staring at their phones I'm extremely concerned and I have some jokes about in my ACT about the next wave because I think that we are overwhelmed by this incredibly attractive medium where we're a tracked it to our phones were attracted to this style of engaging and information receiving information and passing friend in an online arguments and debates and and looking at pictures and this constant stream which you know just looking at your phone it's not that three

► 01:23:57

it's just like it's not that thrilling just like okay yeah but it's still getting you all day long like there's nothing really crazy happening when my concern is if something really crazy does start to happen when you really can have experiences that are a hypernormal like that are that are more powerful than anything you can experience in this regular carbon-based physical touch and feel world and once we start experiencing augmented reality the integration between humans and technology and then the ability to share augmented reality like the shit like if you were at work and you have these fucking goggles on and your girlfriend is at work on the other side of town and you you guys both have like these similar video pets dinner with you and dancing around and providing you with fucking advertisements and giving you things there's there's next levels to this stuff that I'm trying to like see the future from to fuck

► 01:24:57

stupid and I don't really know anything about technology but I know that they're going to get deeper into our lives I know that these Technologies not they like the government but these Technologies they're going to get deeper into your life and that they got you by the balls in the clit with a fucking phone it doesn't even do much take some pictures look at some pictures look at some text watch the video that's all access to most human knowledge that's true but I'm sorry what is the other one stucco doctor going going on I am I'm holding out for for another one I we might start working on search more goddamn Coast I bet if you go to bed and you got to blow dust off your keyboard soon as you open it up like no one's in there who's in bing

► 01:25:50

thing is just Microsoft I know but who's who's using that old ladies I think that YouTube is the number to search engine on the web YouTube yeah yeah that's a really makes me videos about somebody weird topics and just like the old pop up and you get I don't think we can stop it

► 01:26:11

you know cuz it would be fun to do with the frequency that you go to like in arcade like I would go and do some crazy arvr start a new Define is like a a rare entertainment thing to do I just want to make sure that like she even with the robots that we're coming around now do is is it respecting my freedom is this thing on my side it's not I don't think it is right now because I'm using Android is open source but it's just more freedom Google's version of Android is just as bad as iOS version of Android to use I

► 01:26:58

yeah I'm not I'm not perfect I'm not perfect I'm I'm I'm on the Google internet but there's a virgin called replicant which is which is a fully free version of Android that I'm probably cuz I just cracked my phone like a day ago so I might get me one when using wood phone to use which is that it's like a hyper encrypted phone but I don't know I don't know if it's if it's fully free so that they were coming out with this phone is not I don't know I don't know. Something Jamie sure I definitely got an ounce but I don't know that it's still in development can't run everything on a blockchain pretty slow we we use a even to publish to the ethereum blockchain like when you send each other payments on mines

► 01:27:53

it cost like and there's a gas be so the way that the network is powered is that you know the miners get paid with gas with a little bit of ether soaked. Fuc to do a a post like there's fully decentralized social networks just one called diabetes which you have to pay for everything you do on on it and so this is why it's it's a cool experiment but it's really not scalable so you know it's me a combination of decentralized Technology not just blockchain people like to you no say the black jeans going to solve all the problems and it's going to solve a lot of problems it's an incredible tool but yeah I am what is a chamois this it the Finney one that's out now. I just just went on sale like a month ago or so pretty good luck getting a fucking app with that and some of those Android apps they're they're sneaky right don't they steal Bitcoin there was an Android app that got in trouble for stealing

► 01:28:53

the currency it was stealing in the background while you while you had your app open and it was on the Google Play Store see that's true I'm going to made something I can get sued I don't think I did though I think I might have been mining and I think it was stealing pull that up so we can see it I have an Android phone as well I have a note 9 really like it giant great battery life beautiful so you use both yes Bitcoin scam warning over fake Android app that steals cryptocurrency from your phone is very good now it's very good at are you I was an early adopter and it was like clunky and shity and then I would go to my iPhone was like oh my God this is so much better what iPhone is great with his integration with like Apple TV integration with a laptop but I also have a Windows laptop at least I really like I have a Lenovo ThinkPad for as for writing the keyboards better in fact I actually bought an older MacBook just for the keyboard

► 01:29:53

does a writer you you want tactile feedback as you're writing it just helps makes it easier for you to recognize where the keys are and Apple has decided to go so far towards design and just for aesthetic beauty that they've ruined the tactile feedback to you remember that though when the new smartphones you could they still have the keyboard I thought I would never leave that figured out of tactile that's true but that's a different experience that's just what I'm not writing a novel you know what I'm writing material or essays or something like that I need I need a fucking keyboard you don't think that the holographic screen that's just here you don't think it just like autocorrects everything you do and you can just like well maybe but just there's a there's a feeling of knowing

► 01:30:52

did you test out that FaceTime bug can you hear about FaceTime bug that doesn't FaceTime bug where was it basically you could call someone in here them without them picking up on FaceTime and they don't even have to pick you up and then you're on the other end talking shit about them they say cereal Minds that guy's full of shit soon as a big companies come to him he's going to stick his ass in the air just like all of them to the camera can be turned on to make sense that when I'm beating off

► 01:31:33

don't you you should they Apple acts like a cares about privacy which maybe it doesn't turn certain over things to FBI I don't know exactly what but we don't know what the Apple phones are doing apple is all lockdown closed source and additionally I thought there was a creepy speech that Tim Cook just just creepy did you see it no let's listen to it yeah with us into a short speech

► 01:32:07

we might get in trouble for that so again it's good intentions like people who want less hate speech we all want us to get along better but this idea that I don't want to give it too much way but you know he's acting as if they are going to be the moral Authority about the types of content that can exist on the App Store so I just don't know how that's scalable what does that mean this is the right one is this it it says CEO Tim Cook Banning hate division is the right thing to do 12-3-2018 is that it December

► 01:32:55

hello Tim

► 01:32:57

find please

► 01:32:59

connected to the humanity that makes us us

► 01:33:05

we do that in many ways what are the most important is how we honor a teaching that can be found in Judaism but it shared across all faiths and traditions

► 01:33:19

it's a lesson that was carried forward by the late Elie Wiesel may his memory be a blessing

► 01:33:28

it's a lesson put into practice by America's Muslim Community who raised thousands for the victims of the Tree of Life killings

► 01:33:38

loti mode aldim react guy do not be indifferent to the Bloodshed of your fellow man

► 01:33:47

do not be indifferent

► 01:33:52

this mandate moves us to speak up for immigrants and for those who seek opportunity in the United States

► 01:34:01

we do it not only because their individual dignity creativity and Ingenuity have the power to make this country and even better place

► 01:34:12

but because our own Humanity commands us to welcome those who knew need welcome

► 01:34:20

it moves us to speak up for the lgbtq community for those whose differences can make them a target for violence in scorn

► 01:34:31

we do so not only because these unique and uncommon perspectives can open our eyes to new ways of thinking but because our own dignity mousse us to see the dignity in others

► 01:34:46

perhaps most importantly it drives us not to be bystanders bystanders as hate tries to make its headquarters in the digital world

► 01:34:58

if Apple we believe that technology needs to have a clear point of view on this challenge there is no time to get tied up in knots

► 01:35:10

that's why we only have one message for those who seek to push hate Division and violence

► 01:35:21

you have no place on our platforms

► 01:35:34

you have no home here

► 01:35:37

from the earliest days of iTunes to Apple music today we have always prohibited music with a message of white supremacy

► 01:35:51

what what do you think they're signaling here I got a signaling that they're about to start censoring things like what it what is it you probably shouldn't put white supremacy music on but there's a lot of like really violent stuff you can get on iTunes right I mean if you go back to the old NWA albums there's some that's available right Straight Out of Compton and shit and then how about the films that they have how about the film's you can get on the iTunes Store there's a lot of very very very violent films like extremely violent there's a lot of films that like is it that the making distinctions between something that's fiction that although it may be disturbing you understand this is a movie and this is something someone wrote versus someone ART versus versus someone with commentary there commentaries it and then

► 01:36:50

what he was saying hate and division they won't promote division but that's a weird one and I mean what does that mean she's not allowing the conversation to take place of this is in direct conflict with the Terrell Davis's with confronting these issues so but I think when I when you saying you have no place on our platform

► 01:37:28

they probably feel like you can go somewhere else he's building a wall me but this is what I'm saying like everybody kind of feels like you can go somewhere else what happens that way that's how things get more radicalize anybody goes tab

► 01:37:42

so I don't know what the conversation needs to take place people on the lap he's acting like he's speaking for all lgbtq people he's not there lots of people on the left and lgbtq people aren't always on the left and not all of them that there's division in lbgt B&Q like there's a there's a big issue right now with Martina Navratilova but that was going on about her discussing the reality of trans women competing against biological women and that she opposes it and she thinks is there some fundamental advantages which is leading to a lot of weightlifting World Records being broken by trans women she's like this is fucking Preposterous including trans women with penises now they're attacking her for being transphobic so there's not even a United United opinion in the LBGTQ community

► 01:38:40

for sure and that's why that Megan Murphy I think she's yes I go to this restaurant in Bridgeport Connecticut called bloodroot which is like sort of an old-school feminist life vegetarian vegan spot in Bridgeport in Bridgeport we would have a gathering of the Vibes Music Festival school I helped organize ICD stand up in Bridgeport please call the Joker's Wild The Comedy Club so so the oil guy with a shoe there in the face with shoe polish you off in Smyrna intervene

► 01:39:19

I was 24 I know what the fuck was going on so anyway though that restaurant do you know they get called when is it turf

► 01:39:29

Terps yet trans exclusionary radical feminist and you know we're not against you or your bad we're not against trans rights are strands up but they're just saying that's not our thanks again everyone together in the whole intersection of world and look people want to ban together the oppressed groups want to ban together they should but like it's not that simple well there's always going to be different opinions and especially when you have something like you know trans women competing against biological women and you know you have someone like Martina Navratilova that made her her life's work in her career competing as a biological woman

► 01:40:21

she's going to have some opposition to that and then the idea that everyone supposed to be lumped in together with some mandate that no one is really openly discussed your supposed to agree and it fluctuates and moves like the tide you know like what is an is moves like the Todd

► 01:40:37

which exchanges it's like this court of public opinion it's it's constantly rendering new verdicts and you have to keep up and catch up things that were acceptable just a few years ago are totally unacceptable

► 01:40:50

I mean, d is is the key area to what what's happening on social media now I'm not sustainable for comedy because it's fine as it is how because it creates outrage and then comedy it relieves that that pressure like believe me there's a lot of blowback and believe me there's a lot of debate discussion but also believe me when someone does do some Politically Incorrect really good stand-up people go fucking Bonkers they love it it's going it's like one of the best times ever right now to do stand-up people go fucking 800 but I'm just saying for Comics that are running into issues with getting banned or what I mean what who's winning issues with getting banned

► 01:41:42

I mean I think you know one yeah yeah and you know you can make some arguments and Owens not doing so well right now but he's also developing his following because of the fact that people don't agree with him being banned he's he's a very specific example other people that are being banned

► 01:42:07

do you know about other what other stand up comedian you send a bunch of comics on haven't been full of dance with me but they've had their performances shut down who's that one guy who's tell a college the same thing but universities have been bad for that for a long time are the most sensitive of all audiences and they're the ones who are the most they believe the most they're going to change the world and that their ideals are there their ideal a rock-solid and that you have to push back against anything that opposes them was temporarily banned for such a good friend of all the algorithms are cat in the moderators are awesome. We can't just be having this happen all the time and then they just keep saying oh sorry

► 01:43:07

there has to be a new approach completely it can't just be oh let them back on and and just keep doing what they're doing like we need to completely re-approach how moderation is happening the whole policies situation the transparency situation is not just a matter of

► 01:43:29

going to the overlords in saying can I can I please come back that's not that's not suitable for the communication structure of the planet fly think what's not suitable is that Commerce should not dictate how human beings are allowed to openly communicate with each other and what are things that Jack said it's kind of contrary to his company's actions was it he believes that the ability communicate as a fundamental right like the ability to get electricity like if you're in the KKK you can still order electricity and I also should you be able to just distribute information if people say no then you have to say Okay well who's to decide what can and cannot be distributed and then who's to decide if they can go somewhere else and then what happens if you tell a person they can't go anywhere then things get we're looking at more of a community moderation structure so that

► 01:44:24

we've even considering like a juror system so that if we make it bad decision and someone appeals it then the community can potentially make the decisions as opposed to ask or get out but then when you go further up further far enough into the decentralization world it just becomes impossible so we sort of have to decide I think that's where it's going to go so I don't know that's that's the uncensor of all internet and decided that we can do things and then just delete them like in the gdpr that European privacy laws have this idea of the right to be forgotten online which is very difficult because deleting things from any database especially a blockchain is not easy so that I can go on the internet

► 01:45:16

do crazyshit in then just have it taken away

► 01:45:21

it's a paradox because

► 01:45:24

privacy means control but

► 01:45:27

if it doesn't jive with the way the technology Works to just be able to to delete things like you're writing to a database that's not even How the Universe probably really works like you can't just say oh I just want to punch that guy in the face in the bar and I just want to delete that from having happened like yeah

► 01:45:49

yeah and again I think that what we're dealing with now is like you have to interface with it right you have to interface with your computer you have to interface with your phone take to access all the stuff my real concern is that that's just a temporary step and that we're going to just consistently and constantly be interfaced with all of each other no Elon brought something up when he was on the podcast called neural link and he didn't want to fully describe it cuz he said he couldn't but he said it's going to be live within a matter of x amount of months and he was talking about it increasing the bandwidth between human beings and information in a radical way that's going to change society

► 01:46:33

that is what I'm talking about yeah he's talking about an injection you basically doing like your throat and it's a neural lace and it just you know threads around your brain in robot shooting in your brain if you're dying of cancer would you want to see God and see what's up so like do the Nanobots you know the Kurzweil talks about like what do we have control as a community over those robots what's what's the code running those Saturday infallible podcast at whether it's open source or free or not makes no difference whether you can fuck up your brain right what if somebody put that shit in and then for whatever reason they have a blown fuse they stomp on the gas driver

► 01:47:33

it depends on the level of risk you're willing to take I mean you see some of those videos I like I've cried of those videos were like the the woman like here so the first time you want to go yeah yeah yeah in certain glasses allow them to seek are ya all this stuff is amazing I mean that did all that stuff is very cool and in talking to David Sinclair and he was talking about emerging Technologies in with reversing aging and age-related diseases entering into an incredibly strange time for the the influence of technology and Innovation on human beings on our bodies and brains all I'm going to have to decide you know how how far you want to go on this ride next stop Far Rockaway like what are you getting out I live there I lived on the beach sound like when it where do you go

► 01:48:33

delete the delete Instagram when you go just going to be on mines and that's enough and going other places I mean there are alternatives are getting very big and so and together like what was like signal has tens of millions of users part of it that's like the encrypted messaging app that

► 01:48:55

it's open source snow is on there bud Weiser border went on what is signal it's just a messaging app so a message but like a WhatsApp or like a Twitter WhatsApp so it's to know the person and then contact them through it yeah but we were considering using the signal protocol for our messaging systems are messaging system needs an upgrade but all of us together are going to be be able to create sort of like a a group of apps that are like sort of a more open Freedom supporting privacy alternative in like so it's we're not going to solve it by ourselves and it would be way easier if one of these big companies with just switch gears and start doing things the right way and we've spent eight years Billings

► 01:49:45

if one of the big companies Google Facebook Hedges been free and open source we would have spent the last seven years building on top of them because you know they already did something cool that they're sharing with everybody so it's it's actually closed source project stifle Innovation cuz if you think we had to reinvent the wheel wheel if we went and built an alternative with much of the semi functionality think about how how much further the world would be if everyone was building on top of more common protocols but you're looking at it in terms of your own personal benefit you're looking in terms of Mines personal benefit me create this thing is not just for altruistic reasons it's a business right so if they it had establishes open source Network that was Facebook and you just came along and built yours without yeah that would be great for you but why would that be great for them and they said they're obviously in a business now the problem with the business is this busy

► 01:50:45

what is the business of Distributing information and then we have to decide okay at what point in time do we allow these are quotes overlords to dictate what can and cannot be distributed and how did this happen because in the beginning I bet it didn't happen I bet in the beginning you just put on whatever the fuck you wanted and then they had to deal with that and then they had to figure out after a while okay maybe we shouldn't have this on like hey if we're going to sell advertising really should maximize the amount of clicks okay how do we do that when we put things in people's feeds they want to see we put things that people want a debate about an argue about political things all sorts of different things that excite them and get them to be engaged with the platform that's that's their business the business is it mean it's no different in a lot of ways and Amazon or than any other business that wants to grow like how did how do they grow out while they grow by maximizing their profits and by maximizing the amount of eyes that get to their advertising so they get more clicks and more people get engaged

► 01:51:45

that's what their businesses you're deciding by saying if they were open source look how much further on the world would be I don't know if they would agree with that so they figured it out well it just depends on whether or not you think that people have a right to know what is going on it's I mean it's like food transparency I will talk about that till the end of time you were interfacing with this and it's affecting us I fully agree with what you're saying I'm playing Devil's Advocate by saying that in their position they have a business and their business is to make money and they're going to lose because of what they're doing

► 01:52:28

because it's a business. But I thought their business went up after the hearing play did it but it's not going to last

► 01:52:40

it's just that the game is over it's going to take a long time for us to build it up as we know all of these different organizations and companies working together but

► 01:52:50

Linux for instance is operating system that most banks it is the most popular a princess in the world it's every where it got there because of that cuz everyone used it and incorporated into their product Facebook they are all using free and open source software

► 01:53:11

in their sacks they're just not sharing their product with everybody else they're benefiting from it but not giving back and I almost feel like I shouldn't even be saying that they should just pivot because you know that's their only chance

► 01:53:27

to survive so this is based on your estimations of the future

► 01:53:33

yeah just seems like things are becoming more open and if it's possible because you engage with a lot of other super nerds and you guys all have two similar ideas you just have to look at what's happening with Bitcoin I don't know what's happening with Bitcoin it's becoming a Bitcoin and ethereum and you know lots of other blockchains are are are growing really fast maybe you know the price is separate the development energy the number of people who are building apps on top of Bitcoin and ethereum is growing massively there's there's it's a whole new infrastructure that's like a common protocol that people can build on so that is growing rapidly the prices secondary that's not even what Bitcoin and ethereum are really about

► 01:54:19

it's it's it's a decentralized database so this is just where the internet the internet is meant to be decentralised it's her to start out that way and then we moved into this is like web to Silo system with like just these massive companies that are controlling everything but it's going to it's going to keep waving okay again to play Devil's Advocate the vast amount of users are not using those platforms Avast money users are using these control platforms like Facebook and Instagram and Twitter like if that's if you're if you're talking about I'm just guessing but if you talking about the the gross number of human beings that are interacting with each other on social media they're mostly uncontrolled Networks you're saying this is not going to last but there's no evidence that it isn't going to like there's tons of evidence what is the evidence Wikipedia

► 01:55:12

what what happened at incarnate member that disc you put in your computer that was your encyclopedia

► 01:55:18

where is that no one uses it that's that's different this is not a social media Network the social media networks that people are using or almost all controlled right yeah it's going to take a very very long time

► 01:55:35

I would say 10 years and what do you think is going to be the Catalyst like was going to cause these people to make this radical shift the open-source I think we have to be we have responsibilities to be competitive functionally like we just hired a ton of new developers and it's going to take time we're not there yet but once we have functionally competitive products that you wouldn't even know the difference and there's enough people there then it's basically the decision of you know am I going to choose the one that respects my privacy and freedom or the one that doesn't mean people are kids don't like Facebook everyone is sick of it we're just drug addicts

► 01:56:22

is that what it is they just sucked into this thing where you constantly to check and see who's riding white and monopolies arguably yeah right especially when Facebook owns Instagram right Twitter as well they almost did I think Google almost buys everything then like all know they probably could write

► 01:56:50

yeah actually could probably buy everything cash Tim Cook is coming with a big purple pimp suit on to slap down a briefcase and like look all the all these Executives Jack seems like a cool person he's a very nice guy it's not I just sent so much inconsistency in you know she's talking about Bitcoin like this important new internet money simultaneous which is he nosed the infrastructure is open but then his platforms are the opposite

► 01:57:29

why is he so inconsistent it's like there's just hypocritical to the maximum I think it's partly because it's a giant business you know I think when you have an obligation to shareholders in to Max my profits when you try to maximize profits too and there's the device Universal growth model or every year just has to get a little bit bigger otherwise you're fucking up as a CEO like you don't have to experience that with mines co-founders how many people are involved psych 15 of us now and do you have like a board we sit around while you make critical decisions such a stressful as fuck luckily we've started off from the point where we're saying okay we're embedding principles into how we're doing things so we're not in a position where we would ever change that. That's for us to do that would just be a total waste of time so we're making it harder for ourselves to make money

► 01:58:29

in the beginning we're making it harder for a cells to grow because we are not going to compromise people's privacy in order to do those things and so we're just going to build up slowly steadily might just get there when we get there how much time how much of an obligation is this for you

► 01:58:51

same as any job I'm its it sucks because you know my wife Ali would say like it's to blurred my life because it's like what is pleasure what is midpoint happens with you to like when you're on your phone like your family doesn't know if you're working or if you're not doing something for fun like your work is sort of in the digital round partially a lot of it so it's like I just need to put it down like no phones in bed these kinds of things so I can find yeah that is that is huge strict lines are huge yeah putting your phone in a physical place and pushing it away now like that's it's huge it's just the compulsion to look and check Instagram feed to see if there's any cool pictures like what the fuck am I doing like why am I compelled to do this there's no benefit

► 01:59:51

usually if I'm bored like maybe but there's so much of your time is dedicated to that so much of it it's so taxing and it's so involved in so many people are doing a man with a restaurant the other day and I was looking around and fucking everyone was sitting at a table looking at their phone is weird to the stack game was just like if you're out to dinner with a bunch of people just ever wants to put their phone in the stack in the Middle where you could do you pay oh I'd rather just just not not ya people people wipe their butts and don't fucking wash their hands touch their phone and you know your phone is filled with all kinds of dirty shit they take down these a swab test of phones are cover of E coli and people are gross but I know your phone probably

► 02:00:51

what all over it trumps be honest I want the guys to run Joe Beef Montreal to some Asian restaurant Fred and Dave and they were they were talking about it that when they go to dinner they shut the phone off like I'm going to be a good guest a good table guest I shut my phone off I don't I don't engage you don't check it it so you know it's a it's a similar thing to podcasting in a way and that one of the good benefits of podcasting is that for 3 hours or two hours worth of the fuck you doing you going to sit down and you just get engaged with the person to see you and I me and Bill we're just talkin right and that we're not checking her phone we're not looking at the television we're not looking at the laptop is no distractions and that is one of the rare moments in life when you get to talk to someone for several hours and

► 02:01:46

over the last you know nine years that I've been doing this podcast it's benefited me tremendously just just in having real conversations with people we're just sitting across from somebody for hours just talking to them like getting better at understanding how people think getting better understanding how I think getting way better at communicating in that you know knowing when to talk and when not to talk my questions to ask and try to understand the thought process that another person has and you know you walked out of that with some lessons like lint real legit tangible Essence those fucking don't happens turn it your phone while you talk to the people they like Cuts all that off that the conversation stays shallow you miss important points I got to start what we were saying you do that kind of shit in like then the other person knows you're not engage it's just it's weird yeah it's all shades of grey I mean it's done incredible things for like democratizing the ability to share information so it's not just these are not media companies that the only

► 02:02:46

places that can share information so it's incredible it's crucial we need everyone to have the ability to share and so that you can check and because you maybe you're more likely to get the reality of what's going on the road from your news feed then then the big companies but we need management skills personal management skills yeah and I think we need to look at them the same way we look at like alcohol consumption and you know even poor food choices you have a cheat day and eat a bunch of pizzas and some ice cream like the rock does no one's going to get hurt right but most of time supposed to take care of your meat vehicle I think the same thing to be said of your mind but he can have a day like I have a day a week while I will fucking plop down a couch and I don't give a fuk I just watched bullshit on tv and just relax because I know that I'm redlining it six days a week and now and I'm doing three different things at

► 02:03:46

I'm at three different jobs and working out I'm trying to take care of my family and writing comedy material and then let me see some documentary on some wacky fucking called or whatever the hell I'm going to watch and I don't feel guilty when I do that because I know that I'm kind of air quotes earned it you know I think that that's that's mental management and I think we we certainly need we need personal management it comes to the use of electronic devices personal challenges challenge psychology is really interesting to me like you guys do the October thing I was thinking about doing it twice a year now I did this one with with some of my friends we get one called The Hundred Burpee challenge

► 02:04:38

how did I happen to die today because I was but a hundred for time everyday for a hundred days straight and you are drenched after going for time-honored burpees been working out moves like me and five friends my friend's mom did it and it was change my life really it was ridiculous how to change your life I felt better than I have ever felt by far and I have it with that was like a year ago and I trailed off but I think they like but not just physical challenges like digital wants to and like with the ice bucket thing that was crazy shit I didn't get involved. Either how much is watching it happen was

► 02:05:31

just really powerful water my head during a fucking drought

► 02:05:37

stop everybody stop it's not fixing anything how about I just write a check I'll give you some money.

► 02:05:50

But getting communities to sort of pressure each other into doing things turned out to be about in there's a lot of lessons learned that to you know you learned lessons about your Reliance on either substances or things and one of the things that I learned from the sober October challenge the last one was that when you engage in really rigorous physical activity 6 and 7 days a week you don't give a fuck like you don't give a fuk like all that the chatter the internal chatter just goes away all the negative chatter like it's like taking a pill like I don't give a fuk pill it's amazing it's really a man cuz I think a lot of personal anxiety that people carry around with them is is a physical energy that's not being expressed because I think the body has certain demands and certain potential and in order to

► 02:06:49

this certain potential like your potential for athletic output you have to have this you have this energy source right in this is body energy source when not expressed and when you're sitting in a cubicle all day day after day after day did you build this like internal anxious feeling intention and that becomes your normal the the the normal line the normal frequency in which you operate you operate under this intense sort of anxious State and you feel like well this is life God damn it I'm depressed or God damn it I'm anxious to see a shrink or if you just blow that shit out everyday everyday you know you burn off 2000 calories and you fucking run for 5 miles and you do kettlebells and chin-ups and fucking hit the bag for five rounds do that shit goes away you don't give a fuck and then you get to look at things with real Clarity so there was a lesson learned in that and then did that lesson was only earned because we decided to challenge each other and push ourselves

► 02:07:50

do you think it would be too Draconian to have like a a company hundred Burpee a day yes I just don't think you should tell people what to do they did their job is a job and then everything else is like a cult you know it's like no we're only going to wear white robes we don't need anything but white rose okay when do you start fucking everybody and taking their money that always comes next yeah cuz and it's in vain yeah you can't you can't force it was like being convinced he wouldn't be a bad thing well the problem is if you were you could you can have some sort of company-wide challenge we have bonus because that's what I'm saying you would shame them into doing it or you would you know somehow or another make it seem like they would advance in the company more if they played a long to beat

► 02:08:44

I'm not going to do it yes we should encourage it but I almost feel like

► 02:08:55

yeah but you don't want to shame people are just some brilliant people that don't work out at all their brilliant but they just whatever for whatever reason that's a choice you know what should be your choice to go out like Christopher Hitchens just fucken drink everyday and smoke cigarettes and one day you get cancer and you like well you know I mean this is like the way he described as like burning the candle at both ends it gave a beautiful brilliant light yeah he wouldn't have had those ideas if you're done another way it's very possible that's true in the most of the madness that we see in in Brillion artists like it's it's very possible that that man this would not be expressed if they had the other there was something that Sam Harris was saying the other day on your show just about about the freeway. I think that that connects to this information Theory kind of things

► 02:09:47

if we're just sort of a conglomerate of these actions and we're Blake blowing the factions through our body in the unique ways

► 02:09:59

I mean do you accept his theory on Free Will or conventional theory of determinism that a lot of people are embracing and I think there's definitely some Merit to it however you and I both know that you choose whether or not you decide to do something right you choose whether or not you like someone says someone says something to you and you choose whether you decide to email them back some shity but you have an issue and pulse like well he man fuck you you have an initial impulse you think on it you sleep on it but why are you thinking on it sleeping on it are you doing that because of determinism are you doing that because you're trying to be a better person and are you trying to be a better person because of all the factors that played out in your life like environment jeans life experience all those things it's really good it's really just a good discussion so do you own the words that you're saying right now the question Larry lessig

► 02:10:59

one of the founders of Creative Commons in this whole licensing structure for Content like what we're saying right now you have to be licensed I don't know how you yeah I think you were licensing it in a certain way okay or you could say that's locked down but he helped create this whole licensing array of like six different licenses one says you can do absolutely anything you want with this another says you can share it but you can make money off of it there's a handful and so the free-will stuff is connected to

► 02:11:44

Howard dealing with information and like if you cuz if you if you think realistic we don't own what we're saying we're a part of it we're conduit were unique conduit so I don't think it aligns with How the Universe Works to really be a locking down information I think that it makes sense probably in certain short term business

► 02:12:13

but you know I think we have to open it up so what's really going on what do you mean but like locking down information looks like source code like classified file like our content like music like video how does a how does this connect to determinism and whether or not you have free will

► 02:12:34

because it is our are you the creator of your information will you are certainly if you put in the work like what's a you decide to write a book I mean you put hundreds and hundreds of hours in this book and edit this book and then you release the book and someone says no you didn't you didn't create that you or your product of determination and I'm going to steal your book that's intellectual theft intellectual theft is real it's it's certainly real in terms of a creation of content right if you are a stand-up comedian and someone takes your countless hours of work and steals it that's intellectual that for sure and if they try to pawn it off as their own to their own selfish needs their selfish means that's why I keep part of the Creative Commons license you are always saying if you come up with a joke you know it came from here but what if it's a prophet like say if you wrote a book and I say hey there

► 02:13:34

great book written by Bill ottman give me five bucks for it and put it up by my side you to it I mean he makes all the money off your book cuz they have a better platform to sell your book and then I'll give it to you at all you wrote the book you spent all the time you did all the work I would for certain content that I create completely give it away. I mean I've I've written a lot of content yeah but if you were not published but people should be forced to do this I'm just saying I think is how creativity happens and I just don't

► 02:14:24

people deserve to make money on their content run you in you deserve to own your stuff but I don't think that that's actually How the Universe works I don't think it's acceptable Free Will doesn't exist I own your content but I'm struggling to see how they're connected

► 02:14:45

because if you're not the originator then you're not the owner that's a weird argument Stephen King wrote

► 02:14:58

you are the originator of that specific configuration of information and you deserve to be able to everything you're saying with it I'm just saying that

► 02:15:08

I don't know if it's complex well it is complex if you're saying that all human beings essentially all of your actions have been determined by a lot of factors that are outside of your control whether it's genetics again life experience education all the different factors your environment is that what's causing you to put out

► 02:15:37

a fucking brilliant record

► 02:15:40

it's part of it right but you I maybe you have 50 maybe you have 50% everything else has 50% are there I don't know what the percentage is but if you're a musician and someone like Spotify comes along and says make that dude so we're just going to put it on Spotify and make millions and give you pennies that's not what I'm advocating I'm saying you lose more than that we're not so but that doesn't that doesn't mean that those are great records. It is true that means it's a Led Zeppelin this legit gray area you know I found out this Bill Burr called me up and left this really Disturbed message he was like really bummed out when he watching bills a musician he's a drummer and when he saw videos of Led Zeppelin music played and the band that used to open for Led Zeppelin we played on the podcast we're like hole

► 02:16:40

shit like they just stole. They just stole giant chunks and riffs and you know when

► 02:16:50

minute minute timer I guess but yeah but that's a different thing than Stephen King's book why because Stephen King had to spend countless hours in front of his laptop trying to go over each and every sentence in each and every paragraph and suck you in the world you in at all today work at least stole stuff dude use a single phrase anywhere in any of his books that he didn't pull from somebody certainly knows I don't think it's the same though

► 02:17:25

I think it's similar Led Zeppelin what they also had to spend countless hours recording that performance to get it to the level of Awesomeness that would be just did a bitch ass moving it didn't pay those people yeah if you no matter what you should be attributing if you're taking ideas put in the footnotes why does it hurt it doesn't make your art worse because then they'd have to admit they stole the rift for Stairway to Heaven from their opening band and then people go Watt and then they would see it then they would look at Led Zeppelin differently but you know human beings are fucking severely flawed I don't know if I buy that with this this idea that you're saying and turns of like authors creating content I'm not trying to sell something so I know but if they are I don't think someone should be able to copy their stuff and sell it I don't think they should either but depending dish Billy do it and I think you should just be able to do you think you should be able to view the content creators

► 02:18:25

okay I agree with that yet yeah it's it is I mean obviously I play Devil's Advocate a lot but that's how you get to the bottom of these conversations but it is a very complicated issue the complicated issue of who you are and why you are who you are and who you are at this moment versus who you are a decade ago or two decades ago it's it's all very weird you know I mean you go back and think about stuff from high school and you like Jesus wept me my really been that person like I think about stuff like I talk to my sister about stuff that happened we were in high school that guy and he said to say hi and that really me cuz I got a bike if I see them again I'll be like oh yeah oh yeah we had a tenth grade science together oh yeah like a couple weeks ago it was weird it was so weird you know he remembered some strange story from English class and I was like wow you remember that like how weird and while he was talking about is that even really me

► 02:19:25

I can't even really talking about me because I don't have any connection to the stuff that he saying and I understand that he has its of egg distant ghost-like memory in his mind of some some slide images that he's piece together that he recognizes as a a past interaction I mean it's fucking strange it's super strange to like in in a 50 or 2045 whatever you know if your body can be replaced one piece at a time as time goes on then your body literally you could survive but your body is going to be like almost completely deaf exactly it's like the boat analogy analogy of the certain boats that are like really ancient boats that are on display in every single piece of them from the original boat has been replaced because they rotted away what am I looking at what is this really

► 02:20:25

yeah that's kind of us in one side becomes a physical thing

► 02:20:31

you know I'm at the guy who got his arm and his leg bitten off by shark ever see that guy's got carbon fiber arms and legs John Joseph brought him to The Comedy Store met him at the UFC the game tickets super super nice guy but he's got this like a carbon fiber hand and forearm that moves around like like a hand shakes your hand and then he walks with no limp he's got this carbon fiber Auto everything I think from the knee down a shark that is leg off it's fascinating okay that you're still a person you're still here and what it would there is there's a jam right there Paul De gelder Paul De gelder super nice guy but it is that is a fake arm that he's got from his arm being chopped off by a fucking shark so from see where it is from his right thigh like mid-thigh down and his right elbow.

► 02:21:31

all that shit chewed off by shark and he still jacked like them no excuses and that's going to keep becoming more biological with the real concern is member Six Million Dollar Man that television show there was a show called The Six Million Dollar Man in The Six Million Dollar Man he had been in some sort of a pilot accident and gentlemen we can rebuild him we can make him better than he was better stronger faster and they give these bionic Parts a game a bionic arm and they gave him bionic legs and he could run like 60 miles an hour you run like crazy fast and he's artificial arms and art of artificial leg and they had a bionic woman same shit said she was hot and she had artificial legs and I think she could see things other people can see like One debt mean that was cool would you look at that like wow look we could do what you got to fight with Bigfoot on the TV show is really stupid but one day people are going to be given the option

► 02:22:31

now maybe when your legs or do you want to get these legs allow you to jump over building I'm curious if there's really like superhuman projects that are going on where where people actually can have these abilities we know that we've classified information it's just we know what that their stuff we don't know that are extraordinary projects

► 02:22:57

so you know this being in the future I feel like there's a disconnect between the state of Technology on the planet Earth right now with like what the public has access to with what they did in a black projects have access to and that is really not cool because it's not

► 02:23:18

fair for Humanity to not understand

► 02:23:23

what is going on I think that's true but I also think that most of the state-of-the-art stuff is its peer-reviewed right I mean there's so many different people working on these different Technologies like CERN another working on the Large Hadron Collider or anything else there's so many different people working on it that the people that are at the Forefront of the technology was there all gobbled up by the dark government there in the people at the head of the line kind of understand where the technologies that currently for sure for you and I we don't know what the fuck is going on but I think you're right I think it's probably some government program so they scooped up though the the wisest in the brightest and you don't like their God Oppenheimer you know I got him to develop the Manhattan Project

► 02:24:09

just probably some shit going on right now what do you think's happening

► 02:24:14

what do you know don't tell me I want there to be huge Freedom of Information Act reform that they're there we know there trillions going into the black budget so Trevor Pagan Road a cool book called I think it was him called blank spots on the map and it says just talks a lot about the the black budget and I mean wink so we know it exists we know I don't know but it's it's holding us back but maybe I'm not saying everything should be shared because what if you'd like to buy a weapon so we need to understand I think that we need to push the threshold with what the public has access to like we need to go way deeper it's complicated

► 02:25:02

you know it really is I really appreciate your perspective and I really appreciate your point of view and I really appreciate your ethics and what year were you working towards with mines and that's one of the reasons why I want to talk to you I think it is important as much as I fuck around play Devil's Advocate I do that try to get to you know how you're thinking and why and whether or not you had these arguments in your own mind but I think ultimately

► 02:25:28

I've said this before I don't know if it makes sense skin I'm not that smart I really wonder if there's there's bottlenecks for Progress that are going to be there we're going to run in and I think

► 02:25:42

ultimately information is one of the big ones and information also in a lot of ways is money you know I mean when we think of money we were thinking of ones and zeros are being moved around on bank accounts its data I mean it's attributed to different people and you get to do more things because he have more of these numbers and more these things but what is it really it's not gold based anymore it's not a physical material object that you're coveting now it's some weird thing and it's kind of like information on a database and what if we get to a certain point in time I sort of feel like in this weird vague abstract way we're moving towards this with all it's one of the things that I want to really step back and wonder about this trend toward socialism and and Social Democratic thinking I wonder what that is and I honestly think that we're moving towards this idea that hay and we've got a lot of fucking

► 02:26:42

problems that could be cured if you move some of that money around

► 02:26:47

and but but should you be able to move some of that money around and when what happens if that money becomes something different than what if people start developing social currency instead of financial currency it would have your ability to do things was based on how much you actually put in and we were assuming right we assume that the way we do things now where if you want to buy a car you have to have $35,000 that's how much a Mustang cost and you got to bring to the bank and just now I need to prove alone but what if we get to a time in the future where it's not these pieces of paper that give you material objects but rather your own actions and deeds provide you a social currency that allows you to go on vacations or allows you to eat at restaurants or allows you to do things there's a running tally that's not outside of the realm of possibility

► 02:27:39

no I think it reward systems within everything that were using are going to are going to rise up I mean that that's reward tokens for activity we're going we're going to see that rise up in more things that we're doing what I'm saying is if it's a social currency and that you are on Personal Behavior allows you to access more freedoms or or more goods are more things it would encourage positive behavior and community-based behavior because that would be the only way to advance I mean obviously there's a long time down the line but when the first caveman you know traded the first fucking Shiny Rock for the first spearhead you know whatever it was that they did that started this whole inevitable Trend towards money

► 02:28:30

this is not something that has to be this way forever you know and I wonder when we're looking at the distribution of information which is arguably not argue Play It's never never been like what we have today there's never been a time in human history where everyone had so much access to information that used to have to pay for you just have to go to school see if they used to have to earn your way to the position we could open the very books that had all this information in it night get it off your phone it's instant and this is a whole different way of interfacing with information I think this is going to affect Higher Learning institutes I think it's going to affect a lot of different things but I wonder if this all can be applied ultimately someday maybe not in our generation but someday to money that people start using social currency

► 02:29:20

and that social currency is going to be almost like we have some sort of a database of social currency in this country distributed database

► 02:29:30

the government can be running on open systems I think the reason we struggle with you no trust in the government to distribute wealth is because it's it's so inefficient we want to be decided right goes there also corrupt as fuck I mean there's no no doubt about that mean that the end of the day that's a giant problem. If the people that are deciding what we can and can't do with information or also corrupt would you meet me there's a laws that allow them to be corrupt but doesn't mean that they're not corrupt right

► 02:30:03

I feel like every politician the only politicians that I would support at this point I want to be pulling us in a direction that is making their own position irrelevant basically Building open secure voting systems that allow the planet or the country to decide and vote on what we're doing I mean

► 02:30:31

I just

► 02:30:33

I think that we need more accurate representation of the consciousness of the communities and it just shouldn't just be the singular people deciding for everybody when we should have we have attack and by the time they get in there they're so compromised by the special interest groups that are helping them out and all the different people that are contributing to the campaign fund do you see anybody Horizon

► 02:30:59

I think that there are not specifically right now I don't I don't see anyone talking about

► 02:31:07

open systems and secure voting and completely changing the way that were making decisions but I think that's because they don't know about it I think there will be a lot of politicians who who would be okay with that or want us to move in that direction but I think we need more technologist scientists in these positions building the things that were using

► 02:31:33

yeah and with an ethic of freedom

► 02:31:39

great conversation man I really appreciate it tell people how they can get on mines how they can check it out and you haven't you guys have a nap as well as a we have an app you go to minds.com site from Mobile to get the at 1 on Google Play We are still in the Apple Store find me my sack, hopefully we'll get you on there I just appreciate it thanks

► 02:32:17

thank you everyone for tuna to the show and thank you to our sponsors thank you to stamps.com you can enjoy all the wonderful Services the US Post Office from your own desk with a regular computer stop fucking around and you could try this out but going to stamps.com and click on the microphone at the top of the homepage they're going to hook you up with a 4 week trial plus Postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in JRE that stamps.com and enter jr4 also brought you my me undies I'm wearing a bright now they're my all-time favorite they feel wonderful and they have a 100% satisfaction guarantee 15% off your first prayer pair with my hard time with their first pair free shipping and 100% satisfaction guarantee go to meundies.com Rogan that's meundies

► 02:33:17

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► 02:33:39

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